Do you think blood elves were stronger than night elves? Who would have won in a war?

[Aresk]

Given that the very first appearance of blood elves in the games was Tyrande offering Kael'thas help because his forces would've been wiped out without NE support, and this was before the big TBC Blood Elf civil war, I would give it to the night elves.

all the times that blood elves and night elves fought in the game. the blood elves crushed them. in quelthalas, in azshara, desolace, lorash.

I don't recall in large scale confrontations between them in any of these places. Quel'thelas had the night elf spy camps, but they weren't a military expedition. In Desolace, there's Furien's Post but I don't recall any conflict surrounding it. I'm not sure what blood elf conflict you're referencing in Azshara, so further details would be appreciated. Lastly, Lorash was a singular blood elf working in conjunction with the Horde PC as part of a Horde military unit assassinating town guards; there was no night elf vs blood elf military operations in this instance either.

[Friedrich]

Population wise it is not a contest, the Night Elves are way more numerous. Maybe a more worthy question would be if 1000 BEs would fight 1000 NEs, that would be an interesting topic.

[Mace]

Both are inferior trolls

Who in turn are inferior elementals or the inferior side evolution cousins to dragons.

We should really call it devolution. Trolls devolved into elves. Elementals devolved into trolls

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I know that Blizz is fast and loose with population numbers, but from my understanding the Night Elves always far outnumbered the Blood Elves, even now. The High Elves descended from only a very small sub-set of Night Elf society, and many of them ended up as Naga.

Not to mention that the Night Elves have so many resources to call upon, even if you completely discount the Alliance. They have the Ancients, multiple Demi-gods and their various offspring, Dryads, Keepers, all of the beasts associated with the various Druid forms, the power of Light and Void direct from Elune herself; even their dead remain as wisps to continue to defend them.

I know the Blood Elves have their racial allies as well, but their primary source of power is arcane magic from the Sun Well, while the Kaldorei could raise armies of literal forces of nature.

You forgot the Well of Eternity and the Emerald Dream - their two biggest strengths after Elune

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Just pointing out a few things,doesn't really change the outcome of the night elves winning though. At least pre BFA, after all we don't know for sure how many of them are left after Sylvanas was done with them.

You forget the power of plot always wins

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The high elves were part of the war of the Satyr but the blood elfs were not as they lost there immortality and had multiple generations pass in the time between.

And even barely winning both wars is far more experience then just the latest generation of blood elf’s who only fought trolls.

I mean I never count the Darth’remar highborne as high elves before the exile because they are fully night elves having all the benefits and characteristics of night elves and none of high elves who don’t exist at this point nor have developed anything that characterise them as such.

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The sunwell reaches them across the entire planet, heck it reached them on alternate draenor. Whenever night elf mages confronted blood elf ones they were soundly beaten..

They’ve failed to give us a proper showdown.

The night elf mages that were beaten in Azshara zone quests were either newbies or returned mages from a 19k year hiatus onlynweeks into retraining.

A proper encounter would have been facing fully trained Shen’dralar or Moonguard from Suramar.

Naga against blood elves would give a better idea as Naha would be more closer in line with older more trained NElf mages.

But judging by proximity. We do see Farondis soundly wallop nags, and we do see the Moonguard really pull off wonders against a vastly superior number of Nightborne invaders bloodnelves later on fair nowhere near as well in comparison during the invasion of Suramar.

That gives you a rough idea of what it might be like if blood elf Mages came up against fully trained and experienced night elves ones in the fully practised and skilled, rather than what they faced

[Ferlion]

While her assessment should be wrong, unfortunately it wasn't after all Tyrande had to be schooled in basic military matters by Varian in MoP

I'm actually going to address the MoP Varian one here, just because I think it's needed.

Tyrande was 100% correct in ALP, and saying she was "schooled" in basic military matters is silly. The Horde actively abandoned their defensive posts to run forward and kill Varian, running straight into traps wave after wave. It was not reflective of any basic military action. It was literally the Horde giving up defensive positions because of no reason at all.

Now, add on to the actual scenario of ALP, and you see more that Tyrande was correct.

See, something that gets overlooked..

The blessed Temple of the Red Crane is the ancestral home of Chi-Ji, the celestial embodiment of hope. From within the temple's ornate halls, the Red Crane wings out to oppose the despair that spread through the murky Krasarang Wilds like a cancer. But, with the recent arrival of Horde occupation forces, the sacred site has become a fortification, and the Crane's servants hostages.

Leaders of the Alliance, foremost among them Varian Wrynn, are divided on how to deal with the problem. To remove the Horde from the temple without needlessly sacrificing Alliance lives, you’ll need to lure them out and take them down with carefully placed traps

The Horde actively had hostages. So, to recap, the Horde not only gave up fortified positioning, they also gave up hostages... for no reason at all.

This goes WELL beyond "basic military action."

Tyrande's "We're going to clear it out and save them by force" is, in a military operation, potentially the correct option depending on a bunch of difference circumstances. Generally sending in people to infiltrate the temple and kill anyone. Funny enough, for something that was SUPPOSED to be a purely diplomatic role, this would have been a great example of Varian stepping up and acting as a hostage negotiator, lending flavor to the world and highlight the human diplomacy racial.


Tyrande was 100% correct in A Little Patience. And by no means was it anywhere near basic. Every single person, Varian included, was treated with some psychic idiot bat.

Literally Horde running into traps while giving up hostage and a fortified position. It is one of the single worst things ever added to World of Warcraft.

[Rhlor]

Given that the very first appearance of blood elves in the games was Tyrande offering Kael'thas help because his forces would've been wiped out without NE support, and this was before the big TBC Blood Elf civil war, I would give it to the night elves.



I don't recall in large scale confrontations between them in any of these places. Quel'thelas had the night elf spy camps, but they weren't a military expedition. In Desolace, there's Furien's Post but I don't recall any conflict surrounding it. I'm not sure what blood elf conflict you're referencing in Azshara, so further details would be appreciated. Lastly, Lorash was a singular blood elf working in conjunction with the Horde PC as part of a Horde military unit assassinating town guards; there was no night elf vs blood elf military operations in this instance either.

The Sentinels are the military force of the Danassians, therefore the operation in Quelthalas is a military operation. the night elves attacked the blood elves and were defeated


Furien was killed by the night elves of Nijel's Point the blood elves take revenge crushing the place.


Lorash not only helped break down the night elves' defenses in the novel, he personally killed a large number of druids.

in azshara Andorel Sunsworn destroys the highborne of darnassian camp

Amberwind's Journal
Description
If my sources are trustworthy, Lorekeeper Amberwind is overseeing the Alliance investigation of the ruins to the east. I have not yet probed the extent of her abilities: I'm hoping you can give me a full report by engaging her in combat and destroying her.

With a title like 'Lorekeeper,' I'm guessing Amberwind will have a journal on her that'll tell us exactly what those night elves are up to. Fetch that journal for me. No need to run back; use their own scrying stones to contact me remotely.
Completion
Amberwind was making use of an Arcane Construct? Hah! How delightfully inexperienced. It's like watching children play with firearms.

Let's take a look at that journal, <name>. Hold it up to the scrying stone... keep it still

Arcane De-Construction

Description
Arcane constructs are creatures spawned of pure mana and intellect. In the right hands, a construct allows its user to quickly assimilate vast riches of arcane knowledge. But they're dangerous, <name>. So intelligent! So powerful! So very vulnerable to external tampering...

Let's teach these amateurs a lesson and use their own magic against them. Slay Apprentices and collect their runestones for me. Contact me via the lower scrying stone when you're done.

Completion
Good work getting those runestones. To be honest, I only needed one, but the thought of so many night elves slain for such useless baubles fills me with a dark, giddy joy.

Please hold one of those runes up to the scrying stone to let me see. Hmmm. As I suspected, an amateur effort at best.

Hacking the Construct

Description
Now we will hack their arcane construct and use it to wreak havoc. Have you done this type of magic before, <name>? No? Hah! That makes my plan all the more delicious. Nearby you should see a formidable arcane construct they've summoned. Thanks to the runestones you gathered, we know how to communicate with it. Talk to the construct and say "Al'teth la c'tolgar." Got that? Repeat it? Close enough. Report back to me and let me know what happens!

Completion
Haha! Hah - HA! Night elf "mages" fleeing their own arcane creation. Your actions have made my month, <name>. That's why we blood elves don't use arcane constructs anymore - they've been outlawed for, oh, 1500 years. It's amusing to me to watch our foes repeat the mistakes of the past. "Mages." Indeed.

[Aresk]

The Sentinels are the military force of the Danassians, therefore the operation in Quelthalas is a military operation. the night elves attacked the blood elves and were defeated
<snipped image>

Furien was killed by the night elves of Nijel's Point the blood elves take revenge crushing the place.
<snipped video>

Lorash not only helped break down the night elves' defenses in the novel, he personally killed a large number of druids.

in azshara Andorel Sunsworn destroys the highborne of darnassian camp

<snipped quest text>

Ah, thanks for the added details!

Regarding the Quel'thelas camps, my point was that the night elves weren't there to fight the blood elves or conquer the area. The fact that the blood elves eradicated the night elves isn't surprising given that the night elves had no where near the same number of forces.

For Nijel's Point, it was an outpost community with a few guards and civilians. While I agree that the blood elves could destroy night elf settlements, I don't think this example points to who would win in a military encounter.

Likewise, I think Lorash as an example speaks to the capability of the blood elves but isn't representative of the hypothetical conflict; the night elves had no military strength (being en route to Silithus at the time) and were largely focused on the giant Horde army. Replace the Horde army with just the sin'dorei and bring back the night elf military, and I'm not sure if Lorash would've been able to perform as well.

I do think your Azshara example is a good one on showing that sin'dorei arcanists would likely trounce their kal'dorei counterparts.

[Buffbringer]

Uh.... Blood Elves, of course. Night Elves are just a Savage Race, composed of tree huggers.

Can't believe there were any doubts about this...

[Magical Mudcrab]

Well, I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with her, but I remember a Blizzard blue post on this issue, I can't find the exact source, and perhaps it was removed a while ago, but this Blizzard employee stated something like, Liadrin meant that she and the Blood Knights were more used to city and siege warfare, and were used to fighting in tighter quarters and melee combat within a large city center like Suramar, while Tyrande and the Sentinels were more accustomed to fighting in more expansive and less restricted forest environments and using guerilla tactics (which is kind of true, remembering the night elves' first appearance in Ashenvale).

Sure, and there's some degree of truth there. At the time she said this the Sin'dorei had a recent experience with siege warfare, specifically the Scourge; however, the usefulness of that experience is severely limited. The Scourge were not known for their tactics, typically winning wars through attrition. Although, later, we would find that the Kaldorei sentinels were more than capable of laying siege to a capital, as they were the ones who would go on to breach the defenses of Orgrimmar during its siege by the joint Alliance and Horde forces. That said, even if we accepted that the Kaldorei would not be able to breach their gates, there's a question as to whether that even matters. If the Sin'dorei are pushed back and confined to Silvermoon and cannot leave for fear of being hunted by sentinels and ancients, is that a victory? The longer the Kaldorei are in Quel'thalas, the more treants and ancients they can call upon, leading the a viscous cycle of the longer they are able to hold their ground, the harder it becomes for the Sin'dorei to fight back (and the harder it becomes to fight back, the longer the Kaldorei will be able to hold their positions).

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The Sentinels are the military force of the Danassians, therefore the operation in Quelthalas is a military operation. the night elves attacked the blood elves and were defeated

The sentinels in Quel'thalas were sent as spies, not to act as a major military presence. Undermine and sabotage the Sin'dorei? You bet. But not to act as an opposing force. Unless you're planning to argue something equally silly, like that the Draenei would able to single-handedly defeat the entirety of Kael'thas' forces because they defeated the meager force that followed them to Azeroth, there's nothing to discuss here. A single outpost of Kaldorei is not an apt comparison.

Furien was killed by the night elves of Nijel's Point the blood elves take revenge crushing the place.

Neji's Point is not some major, well supplied stronghold. It's an outpost that's cut off from virtually every other Alliance outpost, caught between Sun Rock Retreat and Shadowprey Village (both Horde outposts). Moreover, this was not some amazing feat of Sin'dorei magic. The quest Firestarter, and the quest chain surrounding it, is quite explicit with what you're doing. You steal magical relics from a temple of Elune, charge the relics by destroying the spirits of ancient Kaldorei and forcing their power into it, and then unleashing the power stored onto Neji's Point.

Lorash not only helped break down the night elves' defenses in the novel, he personally killed a large number of druids.

Which is great, but in A Good War Saurfang states that the casualties of the joint Horde forces were higher than that of the Kaldorei, who were not at full strength and did not have the full support of the Alliance in Darkshore (due to logistics, not for lack of trying).

in azshara Andorel Sunsworn destroys the highborne of darnassian camp

I'm cutting out almost everything because a link to the questline is more than sufficient, there's no need to copy/paste paragraphs of text.

The Kaldorei in Azshara during Cataclysm are almost exclusively novices. This was not some great, longstanding Highborne camp which contained many ancient Kaldorei. This was a single Lorekeeper and her Kaldorei apprentices which, given the canonical timeline, would have been learning magic for less than a year. The only thing that's impressive about what was done was the decision of Lorekeeper Amberwind to undertake an expedition with a group of undertrained apprentices into Horde-occupied territory.

[Vaedan]

At least the Blood Elves didn't have their capital burned down by a few flaming catapults on a whim because one night elf said the wrong thing to the wrong person.

Actually, they did. When Arthas raided Quel'thalas, his plan was to only reach Sunwell. Heavy resistence Sylvanas gave changed his mind to slaughter as many elves as possible.

[Rhlor]

Sure, and there's some degree of truth there. At the time she said this the Sin'dorei had a recent experience with siege warfare, specifically the Scourge; however, the usefulness of that experience is severely limited. The Scourge were not known for their tactics, typically winning wars through attrition. Although, later, we would find that the Kaldorei sentinels were more than capable of laying siege to a capital, as they were the ones who would go on to breach the defenses of Orgrimmar during its siege by the joint Alliance and Horde forces. That said, even if we accepted that the Kaldorei would not be able to breach their gates, there's a question as to whether that even matters. If the Sin'dorei are pushed back and confined to Silvermoon and cannot leave for fear of being hunted by sentinels and ancients, is that a victory? The longer the Kaldorei are in Quel'thalas, the more treants and ancients they can call upon, leading the a viscous cycle of the longer they are able to hold their ground, the harder it becomes for the Sin'dorei to fight back (and the harder it becomes to fight back, the longer the Kaldorei will be able to hold their positions).

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The sentinels in Quel'thalas were sent as spies, not to act as a major military presence. Undermine and sabotage the Sin'dorei? You bet. But not to act as an opposing force. Unless you're planning to argue something equally silly, like that the Draenei would able to single-handedly defeat the entirety of Kael'thas' forces because they defeated the meager force that followed them to Azeroth, there's nothing to discuss here. A single outpost of Kaldorei is not an apt comparison.



Neji's Point is not some major, well supplied stronghold. It's an outpost that's cut off from virtually every other Alliance outpost, caught between Sun Rock Retreat and Shadowprey Village (both Horde outposts). Moreover, this was not some amazing feat of Sin'dorei magic. The quest Firestarter, and the quest chain surrounding it, is quite explicit with what you're doing. You steal magical relics from a temple of Elune, charge the relics by destroying the spirits of ancient Kaldorei and forcing their power into it, and then unleashing the power stored onto Neji's Point.



Which is great, but in A Good War Saurfang states that the casualties of the joint Horde forces were higher than that of the Kaldorei, who were not at full strength and did not have the full support of the Alliance in Darkshore (due to logistics, not for lack of trying).



I'm cutting out almost everything because a link to the questline is more than sufficient, there's no need to copy/paste paragraphs of text.

The Kaldorei in Azshara during Cataclysm are almost exclusively novices. This was not some great, longstanding Highborne camp which contained many ancient Kaldorei. This was a single Lorekeeper and her Kaldorei apprentices which, given the canonical timeline, would have been learning magic for less than a year. The only thing that's impressive about what was done was the decision of Lorekeeper Amberwind to undertake an expedition with a group of undertrained apprentices into Horde-occupied territory.

is an amazing feat of sindorei magic shows how the sindorei can learn and use the powers of elune against the night elves.

it looks like a sindorei soldier can kill multiple night elves druids. and we can think that in any case orcs can be good warriors but not good soldiers in illidan's novel we can see how surprised illidan is at how spellbreakers annihilate manoroth's orc army with great ease.

andorel defeats them because the sindorei wizards are better in war we see that also in suramar as the nightborne are impressed with their power

about the urban war liadrin and the blood elves participate in the battle for shattrath on draenor

[cparle87]

The Night elves we speak of are the original rebels who overthrew the corrupt Highborne government and saved the world from destruction. In the modern age, they alone were able to make a worthy stand against the entire might of the Horde unleashed upon their lands.

The Blood elves are weaklings who cannot even reclaim the Ghostlands.

Malfurion alone can most likely annihilate an entire Sin'dorei army all by himself, by using the wisp wall ability that he used to stall the much larger Horde army for weeks.

The Night elves easily win.

Considering a third of the Ghostlands is destroyed in a way no magic or science has found a way to fix, and that third is right in the middle making navigation and communication difficult reclaiming the Ghostlands is a much more difficult task than I think you think it is. We put some effort into it, called in the foremost experts in poison making in the universe, and it still took some doing to reclaim Undercity from the Blight. Back in TBC the Dead Scar was declared unfixable and no lore updates have been mentioned changing that.

[Loreth88]

is an amazing feat of sindorei magic shows how the sindorei can learn and use the powers of elune against the night elves.

it looks like a sindorei soldier can kill multiple night elves druids. and we can think that in any case orcs can be good warriors but not good soldiers in illidan's novel we can see how surprised illidan is at how spellbreakers annihilate manoroth's orc army with great ease.

andorel defeats them because the sindorei wizards are better in war we see that also in suramar as the nightborne are impressed with their power

about the urban war liadrin and the blood elves participate in the battle for shattrath on draenor

It’s amazing feat that if Alleria tp in the sunwell the blood elfs are down. Depression, turn into wretched or sucking energy from anything even if the source it’s is own mother. For them nothing is sacred just the sunwell, because they are junkie kids. They only fit in the orc horde because they good fighting agains weakened army or novices, when real army came to the doorstep they need an ally’s.

[Magical Mudcrab]

is an amazing feat of sindorei magic shows how the sindorei can learn and use the powers of elune against the night elves.

No, they did not use the "powers of Elune" in the sense that you're trying to act like they did. Stop trying to frame things in a way that's misleading. They used some old, volatile relics which exist with the sole purpose of unleashing a firestorm to unleash a firestorm. There is no innovation or achievement in using a relic for its intended purpose when you have the instructions of how to use it, which was part of the notes you - the player - acquire during the quest chain.

Moreover you, as the player, are the one who recovers, charges, and subsequently uses the relics, not the quest giver.

it looks like a sindorei soldier can kill multiple night elves druids. and we can think that in any case orcs can be good warriors but not good soldiers in illidan's novel we can see how surprised illidan is at how spellbreakers annihilate manoroth's orc army with great ease.

Sure, but that's wholly irrelevant. It's great that Lorash can kill some Kaldorei sentinels that weren't even aware a war has started, but, canonically, the bulk of the Horde forces fought a fraction of the Kaldorei's forces and came out with more casualties until the Burning of Teldrassil. You don't get to then deflect and effectively say "well, actually, there are more deaths because of the orcs, but the sin'dorei are actually super strong and wouldn't lose as many soliders" when the fact of the matter is that there were Sin'dorei and they did suffer catastrophic losses, as did every other Horde faction.

andorel defeats them because the sindorei wizards are better in war we see that also in suramar as the nightborne are impressed with their power

No, this is not correct. Andorel does not defeat anyone, in fact he doesn't do anything. You, the player, kill a single highborne lorekeeper and a bunch of apprentices who, given the canonical timeline, were likely apprentices for less than a year. Moreover, this wasn't even a military expedition. Given what we find in the quest, the purpose of summoning the Arcane Construct with the intent of learning, and Andorel took issue with the possibility that they could find something and sent you - a mercenary - to kill them. If Andorel was as powerful as you believe he is, why didn't he muster up some fellow Sin'dorei mages do anything about Talrendis Point? I would argue that it's likely because he's actually not as competent as you think and that his taste for attacking an outpost with highborne lorekeepers (as in, more than one lorekeeper) defending it is probably not as enticing as contracting the killing of a single lorekeeper whose investigating a ruin with her novice students.

about the urban war liadrin and the blood elves participate in the battle for shattrath on draenor

Are we supposed to invalidate over 10,000 years of Tyrande taking an active role in the Kaldorei military and throw it out the window because Liadrin participated in the Battle for Shattrath?

[OwenBurton]

Sure, but that's wholly irrelevant. It's great that Lorash can kill some Kaldorei sentinels that weren't even aware a war has started, but, canonically, the bulk of the Horde forces fought a fraction of the Kaldorei's forces and came out with more casualties until the Burning of Teldrassil. You don't get to then deflect and effectively say "well, actually, there are more deaths because of the orcs, but the sin'dorei are actually super strong and wouldn't lose as many soliders" when the fact of the matter is that there were Sin'dorei and they did suffer catastrophic losses, as did every other Horde faction.

You do raise some other valid points, but as an example, Lorash was able to kill nearly a dozen druids in Ashenvale, where they were strongest, alone and unaided. And this was during the night, when the night elves were supposed to be strongest under Elune's moonlight or something.

Half of the druids passed him in the same way before he struck. His wrists rotated. His hands opened. The shurikens flew. Two of the birds shrieked, flapping their wings erratically as the poison went to work. One slammed into a tree trunk with a sickening sound, and the other spiraled toward the ground.

He had six shurikens left. Two more whistled through the air. One hit; the other missed.

The pack turned. They knew they were under attack, but they did not know from where. Lorash showed them. He leapt from his branch, passing through a beam of moonlight. He landed on a branch in the next tree and leapt for the next.

Snarls and growls echoed behind him. They gave chase. He kept running, using the druids’ route, traveling at almost a full sprint the way they had come. At the very least, he was leading them away from the battle lines.

The branches shivered under his feet. The druids were calling upon the forest to stop him. In a few moments, the branches would shy away from his footsteps, vines would entwine around his ankles, and perhaps the trees themselves would open up, drawing him inside to suffocate within their bark. He had heard tales of such things.

Lorash landed on a branch of a gnarled tree. The branch was capable of holding the weight of a single creature. He turned to face his pursuers, letting two more shurikens fly. Both were misses, but they made the night elves scatter. Two left.

A druid leapt for him. The cat’s huge mouth was open, tusks primed to slash his throat. Lorash ducked, drew his daggers, and swiped in an upward arc. Blood showered onto his head and neck, and the druid offered a strangled, gurgling cry as she fell to the ground far below.

The other druids roared with rage. Lorash stood up, smiled, and gestured to them with his bloody daggers. Come on, then. Avenge your friend.

Four eagerly jumped to his branch. He stepped off calmly. He fell freely for a heartbeat before slamming a dagger into the tree trunk, dragging himself to a stop about halfway down. Then he let himself fall the rest of the way. He had misjudged the distance a bit, and his knees complained loudly upon his landing, but they held his weight, so he ignored them.

Above him, the druids had landed on the branch together. It had instantly snapped under their weight, and they all fell. Most hit the ground awkwardly, the impacts making the soil shiver under his feet. As the rest of the druids climbed or flew down to help, Lorash went to work. The stunned druids had little chance, not against blades wreathed in poison. Roots peeked up from the soil, but Lorash danced away from them easily.

I don't see a single night elf druid killing a dozen blood elf paladins from Silvermoon in such a manner to be honest. It took Malfurion Stormrage personally to kill Lorash, and even afterwards, Sylvanas was still able to bring him back. I'm trying to think of all the night elf forces, and I think the only ones who might stand a realistic chance against the Blood Knights head on are perhaps Maiev Shadowsong and her Wardens, but they are very few in number.

[Rhlor]

You do raise some other valid points, but as an example, Lorash was able to kill nearly a dozen druids in Ashenvale, where they were strongest, alone and unaided. And this was during the night, when the night elves were supposed to be strongest under Elune's moonlight or something.



I don't see a single night elf druid killing a dozen blood elf paladins from Silvermoon in such a manner to be honest. It took Malfurion Stormrage personally to kill Lorash, and even afterwards, Sylvanas was still able to bring him back. I'm trying to think of all the night elf forces, and I think the only ones who might stand a realistic chance against the Blood Knights head on are perhaps Maiev Shadowsong and her Wardens, but they are very few in number.

this is what i was saying about lorash humiliating and killing multiple druids! and quelthalas has its own military organization rogue the pathstalker it would be logical to see more rogue trained like lorash.
and I repeat the spellbreakers devastated the armies of mannoroth illidan himself was surprised

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No, they did not use the "powers of Elune" in the sense that you're trying to act like they did. Stop trying to frame things in a way that's misleading. They used some old, volatile relics which exist with the sole purpose of unleashing a firestorm to unleash a firestorm. There is no innovation or achievement in using a relic for its intended purpose when you have the instructions of how to use it, which was part of the notes you - the player - acquire during the quest chain.

Moreover you, as the player, are the one who recovers, charges, and subsequently uses the relics, not the quest giver.



Sure, but that's wholly irrelevant. It's great that Lorash can kill some Kaldorei sentinels that weren't even aware a war has started, but, canonically, the bulk of the Horde forces fought a fraction of the Kaldorei's forces and came out with more casualties until the Burning of Teldrassil. You don't get to then deflect and effectively say "well, actually, there are more deaths because of the orcs, but the sin'dorei are actually super strong and wouldn't lose as many soliders" when the fact of the matter is that there were Sin'dorei and they did suffer catastrophic losses, as did every other Horde faction.



No, this is not correct. Andorel does not defeat anyone, in fact he doesn't do anything. You, the player, kill a single highborne lorekeeper and a bunch of apprentices who, given the canonical timeline, were likely apprentices for less than a year. Moreover, this wasn't even a military expedition. Given what we find in the quest, the purpose of summoning the Arcane Construct with the intent of learning, and Andorel took issue with the possibility that they could find something and sent you - a mercenary - to kill them. If Andorel was as powerful as you believe he is, why didn't he muster up some fellow Sin'dorei mages do anything about Talrendis Point? I would argue that it's likely because he's actually not as competent as you think and that his taste for attacking an outpost with highborne lorekeepers (as in, more than one lorekeeper) defending it is probably not as enticing as contracting the killing of a single lorekeeper whose investigating a ruin with her novice students.



Are we supposed to invalidate over 10,000 years of Tyrande taking an active role in the Kaldorei military and throw it out the window because Liadrin participated in the Battle for Shattrath?

It is thanks to Furien's studies that we can defeat the night elves and summon the firestorm.
the vast majority of the forces were orc and forzaken
we defeated the night elves thanks to andorel's instructions and hack
blame the devs who said liadrin is better at urban and siege warfare

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You do raise some other valid points, but as an example, Lorash was able to kill nearly a dozen druids in Ashenvale, where they were strongest, alone and unaided. And this was during the night, when the night elves were supposed to be strongest under Elune's moonlight or something.



I don't see a single night elf druid killing a dozen blood elf paladins from Silvermoon in such a manner to be honest. It took Malfurion Stormrage personally to kill Lorash, and even afterwards, Sylvanas was still able to bring him back. I'm trying to think of all the night elf forces, and I think the only ones who might stand a realistic chance against the Blood Knights head on are perhaps Maiev Shadowsong and her Wardens, but they are very few in number.

Kinda important to note theses Druids likely aren’t actually regular fighters as the whole point of the war of thorns is that the military wasn’t there and the defence was manned by like town guards and the like. It would be like the Navy seals getting a drop on small town cops.

When the actual military vs military fighting happens the night elfs mange to beat the horde on there own with only the worgen helping and with there forces split in zandalar as well.

[Magical Mudcrab]

It is thanks to Furien's studies that we can defeat the night elves and summon the firestorm.

Which changes exactly nothing about what I said.

the vast majority of the forces were orc and forzaken

Irrelevant, unless you're going to argue that somehow the Sin'dorei are simply better at war than the Orcs and Forsaken.

we defeated the night elves thanks to andorel's instructions and hack

Their master was already dead and they were being killed in droves. Turning the Arcane Construct is not what broke the camel's back. The camel's back was already broken, it was dead, and buried. Overriding their control of the construct was just dancing on their graves.

blame the devs who said liadrin is better at urban and siege warfare

Which devs? What source? Saying something and then providing a (Source: Trust Me, Bro), when most everything else is being cited does not convince me.

[Morgaith]

No clue if individual blood elves were stronger than night elves but the blood elf population was super tiny in canon which would mean a loss by default, no?

[AcidicSyn]

I feel like in a straight forward all out brawl on an open battlefield the Night Elves would win (especially if they got some of the their old buddies to come back a la mountain giants, chimeras, etc)

In a more tactical or drawn out conflict? Blood Elves can be sneaky duplicitous bastards and I think counting them out early would do little more than make it easier for them.

[OwenBurton]

Kinda important to note theses Druids likely aren’t actually regular fighters as the whole point of the war of thorns is that the military wasn’t there and the defence was manned by like town guards and the like. It would be like the Navy seals getting a drop on small town cops.

When the actual military vs military fighting happens the night elfs mange to beat the horde on there own with only the worgen helping and with there forces split in zandalar as well.

The Horde mostly seemed to send the Forsaken and goblins to Darkshore though...and they still killed lots of night elf commanders while doing so, and raising night elf rangers and wardens.