Is it time to end gear gatekeeping?

[Jinpachi]

You've committed the logical error of concluding that because those things are important, the things I mentioned are not important.

They're secondary. You can have all the twitch reflex in the world but if you dont practice your rotation(which isnt hard), min/max your gear(also fairly easy, lots of databases and info out there if you cant do the math yourself), and memorize mechanics (WHILE USING FUCKING ADD-ONS) you're not going to sucessfully run mythics. It's still the same simple hamster wheel. Do content, get gear for harder content, do harder content, gear up for even harder content. Heroic gear preps you for mythic, but who wants to waste the time doing the same shit AGAIN for pixels? Most working adults cant be bothered. The proof that I'm right is in the percentage of people who do mythic. It's NOT because its tOo HaRd; People just don't care about it.

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You've committed the logical error of concluding that because those things are important, the things I mentioned are not important.

And let's be honest here. We've seen the professional mythic players, they're FAR from the peak of physicality to be able to have the abilities you speak of.

[Osmeric]

They're secondary. You can have all the twitch reflex in the world but if you dont practice your rotation(which isnt hard), min/max your gear(also fairly easy, lots of databases and info out there if you cant do the math yourself), and memorize mechanics (WHILE USING FUCKING ADD-ONS) you're not going to sucessfully run mythics.

Again, you are committing the same logical error. Yes, those other things are vital. That doesn't mean having inherent personal attributes above some level is not also important. Nor does it imply that an average WoW player, if they did the things you talk about there, could perform at Mythic raid level.

[Twdft]

Oh I am fine, and I used the correct verb.

The player does not deserve the gear if they do not do the harder content.

Would you agree that every WoW player, no matter which content they prefer, deserve a progression path that includes better gear?

Open world players progression path is over just one month into a new content patch every time. M+ players have 3 months if lucky and more if they want specific items or get the same slots in vault week after week.

All open world players want is more and longer progression of their character. End ilvl can be debated, but IMO they absolutely deserve something going longer than a month.

[ellieg]

Would you agree that every WoW player, no matter which content they prefer, deserve a progression path that includes better gear?

Open world players progression path is over just one month into a new content patch every time. M+ players have 3 months if lucky and more if they want specific items or get the same slots in vault week after week.

All open world players want is more and longer progression of their character. End ilvl can be debated, but IMO they absolutely deserve something going longer than a month.

They can farm gold in the open world and buy mythic boes

[Utrrabbit]

Would you agree that every WoW player, no matter which content they prefer, deserve a progression path that includes better gear?

Open world players progression path is over just one month into a new content patch every time. M+ players have 3 months if lucky and more if they want specific items or get the same slots in vault week after week.

All open world players want is more and longer progression of their character. End ilvl can be debated, but IMO they absolutely deserve something going longer than a month.

Nope. If you do not do anything but world content or lfr. You do not deserve anything over green gear.

That is my legit stance no bs or trolling.

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No you didn't. "Need" would be more accurate. It's a video game nobody 'deserves' anything it's all a giant blob of time wasting so.

Yes I did. I honestly meant that they do not deserve the gear. It is a waste of resources on them.

[Elbob]

They're secondary. You can have all the twitch reflex in the world but if you dont practice your rotation(which isnt hard), min/max your gear(also fairly easy, lots of databases and info out there if you cant do the math yourself), and memorize mechanics (WHILE USING FUCKING ADD-ONS) you're not going to sucessfully run mythics. It's still the same simple hamster wheel. Do content, get gear for harder content, do harder content, gear up for even harder content. Heroic gear preps you for mythic, but who wants to waste the time doing the same shit AGAIN for pixels? Most working adults cant be bothered. The proof that I'm right is in the percentage of people who do mythic. It's NOT because its tOo HaRd; People just don't care about it.

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And let's be honest here. We've seen the professional mythic players, they're FAR from the peak of physicality to be able to have the abilities you speak of.

Would you mind showing us a log of your character doing anything? idc if your gear is behind but i just want to look at your rotational aptitude. You can PM it to me I won't leak your armory if you are concerned about your char being behind and criticized for that.

The reason I ask is that your claims are just odd. Mythic raiding requires not just a bunch of stand alone abilities(rotation, cds management, defensive usage, mechanic avoidance etc...) but requiring you do these things at the same time along with 19 other people whose individual choices effect your choices and ability to complete needed tasks. And claiming there isn't some talent/skill to this really makes me wonder what your definition of a skill is. People can complete many of these things in a raid environment but some other better at it and/or faster at picking up these required attributes(would normally call this a skill but you don't think these are so had to find a word you might find agreeable).

[Echocho]

Would you agree that every WoW player, no matter which content they prefer, deserve a progression path that includes better gear?

Open world players progression path is over just one month into a new content patch every time. M+ players have 3 months if lucky and more if they want specific items or get the same slots in vault week after week.

All open world players want is more and longer progression of their character. End ilvl can be debated, but IMO they absolutely deserve something going longer than a month.

I won't play WoW if they don't fix this. In FFXIV I can get the second best gear in the game by doing queued content for a weekly capped currency, just like you used to in WoW. And the best part is that it takes months so I have to work hard for it.

Until they bring back that exact system to WoW I refuse to give Blizzard any money.

[Relapses]

Wow is easy and you all are just sitting in here jerking each other off talking about how much skill it takes when in reality you’re playing a game designed for children my dude. I love the game and all, but just accept what it is.

I always see this take by players who peaked in WotLK and their shining moment of glory was that one time they were top DPS in a LFR.

WoW isn't a difficult game but shaming people for discussing things that are obviously more difficult for a large portion of the playerbase accomplishes nothing.

[Utrrabbit]

I won't play WoW if they don't fix this. In FFXIV I can get the second best gear in the game by doing queued content for a weekly capped currency, just like you used to in WoW. And the best part is that it takes months so I have to work hard for it.

Until they bring back that exact system to WoW I refuse to give Blizzard any money.

And that is reason #27 out of 300 that I hate FF14 more than any other game on the market. The very reason you said.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

And let's be honest here. We've seen the professional mythic players, they're FAR from the peak of physicality to be able to have the abilities you speak of.

Uh lol have you seen some of these guys? There are a surprising number of beefcakes lmao

I mean some of them like stream their workout routines and stuff

Feels like an attitude from the 2000s when every professional gamer was like The stereotype of a fat couch potato

[Mardux]

No you didn't. "Need" would be more accurate. It's a video game nobody 'deserves' anything it's all a giant blob of time wasting so.

10 years on here and you still think you have the authority to decide the intent of something said by someone who isn't you?

[Jastall]

But this isnt accurate - at all. Watching someone else do it, and having the information in the journal read out to you in said video, explaining the mechanics, that gives you the knowledge of how to do it, but that in no way says you will be able to actually execute the instructions given in the video. I could watch a hundred videos on how to play through the fire and flames on the highest difficulty on guitar hero, that doesnt mean i can then grab a controller and execute it perfectly - and guitar hero has less buttons than wow.

If all life required was knowledge on how to do something, we would all be amazing mechanics, amazing artists, amazing authors, etc etc etc. After all, there are hundreds of books written on each topic, explaining step by step how someone else did something. And those are mostly SOLO ventures, where no teamwork is required. You honestly make the same mistake many beginners make - assuming the only difference between yourself and a mythic raider is "they spend more time playing wow" as you desperately struggle through Normal mode.

Watching a youtube video is the "how to" - actually executing those instructions is far, FAR more challenging than you are willing to admit, and i suspect that is just you protecting your ego.

It's like that with any skill actually. I watch a decent amount of videos about cars and the mechanisms therof, but don't ask me to do anything more complicated than changing tires or batteries myself. I watch loads of videos on miniature painting, and while I've gotten better I still fall very, very short of veritable wizards of the brush such as Richard Gray. I watch cooking videos, and while I daresay I'm quite decent at it now, this came after years of practice, not just watching Gordon Ramsay a couple times.

There's no universe where Mythic WoW prog raiding isn't hard by video game standards. Even among devilish solo games such as Ninja Gaiden and Cuphead, you rarely see a challenge level so high that good players need to repeat some encounters hundreds of times to get everything right, and anyone who isn't good has no chance at all of ever downing one encounter. The closest equivalent is probably the highest difficulties of co-op games like Vermintide or Deep Rock Galactic yet even so they remain easier than Mythic. You gotta enter the realms of mods or fan games designed to be as brutally punishing as possible (such as I Wanna be the Guy) to start toppling the sheer demands of Mythic.

[Goatfish]

Uh lol have you seen some of these guys? There are a surprising number of beefcakes lmao

I mean some of them like stream their workout routines and stuff

Feels like an attitude from the 2000s when every professional gamer was like The stereotype of a fat couch potato

Yea, I think people are starting to notice that physical health actually does play a role in video games too. It has effects on better emotional control and building reaction times, and getting away from screens for a bit helps keep your eyesight better. People are also starting to make enough money on gaming that they can afford to have it as their main job instead of as a second job, and this gives people more time to work on personal health. At last that's my assumption on it.

They're secondary. You can have all the twitch reflex in the world but if you dont practice your rotation(which isnt hard), min/max your gear(also fairly easy, lots of databases and info out there if you cant do the math yourself), and memorize mechanics (WHILE USING FUCKING ADD-ONS) you're not going to sucessfully run mythics. It's still the same simple hamster wheel. Do content, get gear for harder content, do harder content, gear up for even harder content. Heroic gear preps you for mythic, but who wants to waste the time doing the same shit AGAIN for pixels? Most working adults cant be bothered. The proof that I'm right is in the percentage of people who do mythic. It's NOT because its tOo HaRd; People just don't care about it.

Even if we assume you are correct, which I heavily disagree with but we can take that to DM's if you want. In the end it doesn't change the reality that some people have actually spent the time and effort and some people haven't. You might as well be saying that you COULD be an NFL superstar, but you just didn't care enough to take the time to build the muscle and skills required. It still leaves you as the person who didn't put in the effort, and the NFL players as people who did. We live in a specialized society, that's what we do. I don't say my doctor isn't skilled because he can't rebuild my engine, and I don't say my mechanic isn't skilled because he doesn't even know what T cells are.

Fuck man, I can even use the same excuses. It's not hard to read some books. It's not hard to lift some weights a couple times a week. I'm sure you could be a doctor with an Adonis-like body if you just stopped being lazy and got to work, but what people care about weighs pretty damn heavily on what they become skilled at and end up doing with their life. To write that off completely so that you don't have to admit you're worse than other players just comes across as insane. There is also getting to be some reasonable evidence that likes and dislikes are heritable genetic traits, there have been some interesting studies on twins and triplets separated at birth that end up with similar tastes and interests, likes and dislikes. I suggest you stop trying to keep up this blank slate nonsense and just enjoy the fact that people are different and are going to be better/worse at certain things.

Just as a PSA, this isn't to mean you should try and assume your potential skill or if you will like/dislike something ahead of time or even early in the process. I highly suggest people try new things to find out what they like, but it's not like everyone has the ability to be an Olympian, or a Mythic Raider, or an Artist. The whole point of those inspirational videos is that we don't know where these people will come from, not that anyone can learn to be anything.

[Jinpachi]

Would you mind showing us a log of your character doing anything? idc if your gear is behind but i just want to look at your rotational aptitude. You can PM it to me I won't leak your armory if you are concerned about your char being behind and criticized for that.

The reason I ask is that your claims are just odd. Mythic raiding requires not just a bunch of stand alone abilities(rotation, cds management, defensive usage, mechanic avoidance etc...) but requiring you do these things at the same time along with 19 other people whose individual choices effect your choices and ability to complete needed tasks. And claiming there isn't some talent/skill to this really makes me wonder what your definition of a skill is. People can complete many of these things in a raid environment but some other better at it and/or faster at picking up these required attributes(would normally call this a skill but you don't think these are so had to find a word you might find agreeable).

Everything you just described boils down to being able to follow directions. Has zero to do with skill as it's defined. You're kinda making my point for me. The game is simple, the other players add the difficulty.

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Yea, I think people are starting to notice that physical health actually does play a role in video games too. It has effects on better emotional control and building reaction times, and getting away from screens for a bit helps keep your eyesight better. People are also starting to make enough money on gaming that they can afford to have it as their main job instead of as a second job, and this gives people more time to work on personal health. At last that's my assumption on it.


Even if we assume you are correct, which I heavily disagree with but we can take that to DM's if you want. In the end it doesn't change the reality that some people have actually spent the time and effort and some people haven't. You might as well be saying that you COULD be an NFL superstar, but you just didn't care enough to take the time to build the muscle and skills required. It still leaves you as the person who didn't put in the effort, and the NFL players as people who did. We live in a specialized society, that's what we do. I don't say my doctor isn't skilled because he can't rebuild my engine, and I don't say my mechanic isn't skilled because he doesn't even know what T cells are.

Fuck man, I can even use the same excuses. It's not hard to read some books. It's not hard to lift some weights a couple times a week. I'm sure you could be a doctor with an Adonis-like body if you just stopped being lazy and got to work, but what people care about weighs pretty damn heavily on what they become skilled at and end up doing with their life. To write that off completely so that you don't have to admit you're worse than other players just comes across as insane. There is also getting to be some reasonable evidence that likes and dislikes are heritable genetic traits, there have been some interesting studies on twins and triplets separated at birth that end up with similar tastes and interests, likes and dislikes. I suggest you stop trying to keep up this blank slate nonsense and just enjoy the fact that people are different and are going to be better/worse at certain things.

Just as a PSA, this isn't to mean you should try and assume your potential skill or if you will like/dislike something ahead of time or even early in the process. I highly suggest people try new things to find out what they like, but it's not like everyone has the ability to be an Olympian, or a Mythic Raider, or an Artist. The whole point of those inspirational videos is that we don't know where these people will come from, not that anyone can learn to be anything.

You're conflating professional sports with a video game. Stop it. The only similarity is taking the time to practice. Running a mythic fight hundreds of times has nothing to do with skill and everything to do with repetition and learning patterns. I'll concede that some people are better at that than others, but that doesn't mean the game isn't simple. Now making a game that people will waste HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of hours of their lives on, now THAT takes skill.

[Goatfish]

You're conflating professional sports with a video game. Stop it. The only similarity is taking the time to practice. Running a mythic fight hundreds of times has nothing to do with skill and everything to do with repetition and learning patterns. I'll concede that some people are better at that than others, but that doesn't mean the game isn't simple. Now making a game that people will waste HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of hours of their lives on, now THAT takes skill.

Why does the repetition and pattern learning matter when it comes to everything else but not when it comes to video games?

I think I get what you're trying to say but you are using the wrong words. Simplicity is one thing, but Depth is another. The Japanese game of Go for instance is incredibly simple, but the potential number of moves available makes it very deep. I could probably agree that WoW is not a very deep game, but it really isn't that simple. It's a game with levels of increasingly complex puzzles, the hardest of which requiring incredible cooperation and coordination. This is why I often relate the style of WoW raiding to an Orchestra (each person needs to learn their own role and perform their part adequately usually over 3-12 minutes but often the same pattern).

I'm not sure why any of this would lead you to being insulting and dismissive to gamers, or why you are on a game website forum shit talking people who do this. It makes it feel like you have some sort of superiority complex and don't want to admit that these mythic raiders are better than you at your own hobby. It just screams "I could be that good if I cared enough!!1", when in reality, you aren't. You aren't good enough, and that's ok, it's no reason to be dismissive and condescending towards the people who are.

[Elbob]

Everything you just described boils down to being able to follow directions. Has zero to do with skill as it's defined. You're kinda making my point for me. The game is simple, the other players add the difficulty.
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But other players are part of the game? So you admit raiding does have difficulty and having difficulty is another way to describe a challenge yea? I read your response and what I really get from it is you lack mythic raid experience, atleast recent raid exp. Mechanics on many(not all) fights often require personal decision making that isn't realistically plannable on a spread sheet. Boss mechanics these days are not all as simple as get mechanic X go to position B, find movement and cd optimization to your guilds strats is certainly a skill and how you respond to unplanned movement/mechanics while minimizing dps/hps loss is also a skill. Being able to react quickly and efficiently in game is the same type of skills sports players use to react to an opponents movements.

Again please show you are capable of these optimizations in game since they are so easy and also define 'challenge'

Edit: Since there is no challenge to mythic raiding and its all just memorization. How long would it take you to duplicate or beat my current parse on mythic jailer (same class/spec/gear, even putting you in my raid so the strat is identical) even if I gave you access to all the logs, videos etc?

[Djaye]

Yeah man, you found the solution, the whole game didnt change for exactly what you described, cause people hate going back to irrelevant content to unlock/gear new recruits, combined with guild poaching and whole destruction of guild after guild.

Playing the old version which is considered a joke after 15 years and claiming you know what you are talking about without even knowing jack shit about the game history really boosts your opinion.

Do you enjoy the fact you have 5ms, and 150 FPS and a 5 ability boss fight, that was designed with 2007 standards? Good for you, doesnt mean you are correct about it.

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Game is all about gear chasing, it always was about gear chasing through raids, that shifted to other things like M+ and higher rated PvP to keep people playing cause its 2022 and not 2005 and the gaming standards have changed, it doesnt mean you are gonna slay 5 pigs and get the best weapon in the game cause you feel entitled to it.

If you arent playing the game to gear chase every patch, you are literally playing the wrong game and you are the problem, not the others, especially that the gear chasing was converted to easy mode-seasonal gameplay.

No logical human being cares about "prestige" or whatever other delusional excuses the bad players have on here to blame the better players, maybe when you are an immature 18 year old you think there is any prestige to pixels or titles like every player goes through cause of stupidity, but if you guys dont understand why raiding exists, you are really have no clue what game you are playing.

Or in easier words to understand, WoW is not a single player story game, or a story game, its a raiding simulator with 10 other things that were introduced to make more $, they arent the main content.

If you are not raiding, you are literally the jack ass in the situation, and Blizzard aint to blame, but its really hard for people to accept this part.

the content becomes irrelavent because the rewards (gear) become irrelavent. the post is about not making riad gear irrelavent after one patch. you completely missed the whole pointy of the topic and discussion. wow.

[GotNoRice]

I don't mind that gear overall is easier to acquire compared to previous expansions, and that there are multiple ways to get gear. Like for example, I raid with a guild that only does normal and heroic, but I get a lot of my gear from Mythic+. If I couldn't get gear from Mythic+ on the side then I would be stuck at Heroic raid ilvl.

But it does bother me that every season is essentially a full gear reset. A full gear reset like that used to only occur at the end of each expansion. I would like to see more variety where certain pieces end up replaced multiple times per season while other pieces are good enough to last through multiple seasons.

Earlier this expansion we worked hard to get the legendary bow for most of the hunters in our guild, only to have it replaced soon after, at the end of the season, just like every other piece. If anything is making gear feel less relevant it's the built-in season-end expiration date.

[Toby451]

But it does bother me that every season is essentially a full gear reset. A full gear reset like that used to only occur at the end of each expansion. I would like to see more variety where certain pieces end up replaced multiple times per season while other pieces are good enough to last through multiple seasons.


.

It always has been. You just didn't realize it.

[Echocho]

It always has been. You just didn't realize it.

No it wasn't. Going from T5 to T6 for example you kept using your T5 gear for months, it wasn't immediately replaced the first week.