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  1. #801
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    They are literally redesigning talent trees for 36 specs. If that isn't a herculean task, what is then? And remember at least 2 classes (Monks and DHs) don't have an older talent tree from classic that they can build from.
    Herculean task? Lots of laughter.
    I bet there are many nerds out there who make up their own version of skill trees for fun all the time. And it's not even really difficult since there is next to no innovation present. As you said, they just build it from the classic trees and put some abilities here and there. Add some testing if everyone can get everything they want them to have with their available points and voilá, you are finished.
    I can't think of a more easy task then that, some intern can perfectly do that. Blizz just acts as if they are splitting the atom.

  2. #802
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    As you said, they just build it from the classic trees and put some abilities here and there. Add some testing if everyone can get everything they want them to have with their available points and voilá, you are finished.
    Sure if the classes existed back in Classic then it might be easier but not all classes were (such as DH and Monk). Moreover some classes have dramatically changed which makes it more difficult to use older trees as templates. Outlaw spec for rogues replaced Combat spec. Demonology Warlocks were much different pre-Legion than post (thanks to DH).

    Additionally, if talent tree design was so easy that "an intern" could do it, why are we still seeing changes being made? Just yesterday (8/31) Blizzard devs announced the rework of Priest talent trees - adding new talents that weren't there before. Who knows how much more changes we'll see down the line before everything settles down.

    And this is all still Alpha... We haven't even seen any kind of high level testing in group content (M+, PvP, Raid). Unintended interactions/synergies may cause even more changes before we get the final versions.

    And lastly, do you really want the level of quality "an intern" throws together on such a core revamp? Or do you want devs to truly work on the system to make it as good as they can?

    Considering that there aren't more development in other areas (that we've seen), I would hope that these talent revamp has a lot of production-development hours invested to be really polished.
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  3. #803
    Quote Originally Posted by pvrwizard View Post
    And be at a huge disadvantage from everyone else who does read about everything before launch.
    It's really not that big of a disadvantage. Besides, I'd rather enjoy new experiences and be surprised at things. If it takes me one more pull to kill a boss because something caught me off guard, that's a good thing. Maybe I'm just insane, but the best feeling in a video game is being surprised by something and then overcoming it anyway.

    Maybe it's just how I grew up. I didn't have guides or the internet for video games, so I learned through experimentation and repetition. There is a time and place for looking for help, and I just feel like going straight to help without trying to figure it out yourself is just... sad.

    I enjoy it so much that I'm willing to ignore any release information dealing with quests, zones, features, dungeons, or raids just so I can view them as freshly as possible. Really all I allow myself time on is talent trees, new abilities, and profession information so I can prepare myself mechanically to handle whatever experiences may present themselves. I'll have plenty of time to fine tune later.

  4. #804
    I'm glad all the borrowed power systems have been dropped, I like to explore my games these days not just play the one.

  5. #805
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Additionally, if talent tree design was so easy that "an intern" could do it, why are we still seeing changes being made? Just yesterday (8/31) Blizzard devs announced the rework of Priest talent trees - adding new talents that weren't there before. Who knows how much more changes we'll see down the line before everything settles down.
    Because you live off hype in the gaming sphere. Of course there are constantly new "groundbraking" changes being done, they want fans to talk about the expansion and get hyped for it. They have to stay in the news even if it's just with a "we added two brand new priest talents and you won't believe what they do" message.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    And this is all still Alpha... We haven't even seen any kind of high level testing in group content (M+, PvP, Raid). Unintended interactions/synergies may cause even more changes before we get the final versions.
    To be honest i don't even think Blizz cares all that much. We saw that with all the half-assed systems they released. They probably think "Even if we screw up the nerds will come up with the perfect skillset anyway and anyone doing the content will just copy that. We can change our broken system with the 2nd or 3rd patch then eventually."

  6. #806
    Quote Originally Posted by tomten View Post
    They have already removed faction limits for instanced content. Ion has also announced cross faction, cross realm guilds are coming 100%.
    That's like saying The Titanic was implementing new safety features as it's sinking .
    Non nobis Domine, non nobis, sed nomini tuo da gloriam

  7. #807
    Quote Originally Posted by Dystemper View Post
    That's like saying The Titanic was implementing new safety features as it's sinking .
    This time for sure!

  8. #808
    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    Unfortunately all gameplay that was associated with borrowed power also was removed. Which was the devs plan, after all. Simply reduce the effort for a new expac. And argue the removal of Torghast, Island and Warfront-gameplay with a bad borrowed power reward system. While all that gameplay simply could have continued to exist with gear rewards.

    It is always the same pattern. The developers base their decisions on faulty arguments and fallacies.
    Imagine if they'd stuck with artifacts and order halls and just extended them in BfA, Shadowlands and now Dragonflight. It would have made so much sense and would feel like a natural progress of an existing system. Maybe it made too much sense for Blizzard.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  9. #809
    Unfortunately I don't think Blizzard thinks long term anymore (if they ever did). For instance, Inscription. That profession lasted a whole expansion before it got gutted from it's original purpose. And it has never been the same since (also Archeology, First Aid and to some extent Jewelcrafting). Same can be said about Garrisons and Order Halls. Blizzard only sees these as useful for the expansion they were introduced in and then abandoned thereafter. They seem to be completely reinventing the wheel each expansion and not utilizing the things that worked or were enjoyable from past expansions.
    "The customer is always right" is a nice way of saying "I will put up with your bullshit as long as you pay me"

  10. #810
    To be honest I agree there no additional systems, but I guess this expansion won't be for everyone.

    For me personally I love it, no extra BS like anima, covenant etc., just give me 4 new dungeons for M+ every new season, remove Valor cap after 4-6 weeks and I'm good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Misume View Post
    The day the Mythic Progression Thread isn't 95% trolling is the day Prime comes back to power.

  11. #811
    It's looking bleak for WoW fans right now.
    "In real life, unlike in Shakespeare, the sweetness of the rose depends upon the name it bears. Things are not only what they are. They are, in very important respects, what they seem to be"

    End of quote. Repeat the line.

  12. #812
    Quote Originally Posted by Dystemper View Post
    That's like saying The Titanic was implementing new safety features as it's sinking .
    Its far too late yes but its better than nothing i suppose.

  13. #813
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    Quote Originally Posted by cantrip View Post
    While all that gameplay simply could have continued to exist with gear rewards.
    What gear rewards from Torghast and Island Expeditions? The transmog sets? I don't ever recall any kind of gear (that directly rewarded player power) from those sources. Sure indirectly maybe they contributed to player power via currency (i.e. Soul ash/cinders) or AP but I thought the goal was to move away from grindy activities. A renown like system seems overall better which is what we're looking at for DF.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyel View Post
    Imagine if they'd stuck with artifacts and order halls and just extended them in BfA, Shadowlands and now Dragonflight. It would have made so much sense and would feel like a natural progress of an existing system. Maybe it made too much sense for Blizzard.
    Not really? Do you really want to tell a new player (or returning player or player on an alt), hey you'll need to go back to Legion, do the intro questlines to get the artifact, maybe do the quests to unlock the NLC (NetherLight Crucible) then you can do "current" content. Oh and don't forget since we're now 2~3 expansions past Legion, the current amount of AP you'll need to grind to advance 1 level is in the quadrillion amount but don't worry, here are sources that give you around a few billion each time you complete a WQ/kill a rare/etc.

    I'll pass... Also for players who complain that Legion didn't need weapon drops... Hello, what did you think relics were? Basically weapon drops minus the name. Gave you a little more flexibility in trading until the NLC became a mechanic (gotta check the relic to see what the secondary trait could become).
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  14. #814
    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    Unfortunately I don't think Blizzard thinks long term anymore (if they ever did).
    There's a reason for that: it works. Their model is a cyclical reinvention of the game with retained core concepts only - that in itself runs somewhat counter to long-term cohesion already. Added on top of that is the investor placating that goes from quarterly report to quarterly report, in which boosted profits during key performance benchmarks are more important than a decade+ long strategy for which many of the investors won't ever be on board anyway because they tend to shift their money around far more quickly these days. And no game rules forever anyway, so it's not like they have to worry about WoW lasting until 2090.

    They COMPANY thinks in the long term, because it wants to be around for (theoretically) ever, generating profits. But the PRODUCTS can't really be thought of the same way. They all have limited life spans, and their purpose is to juice, not to ferment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    For instance, Inscription. That profession lasted a whole expansion before it got gutted from it's original purpose. And it has never been the same since (also Archeology, First Aid and to some extent Jewelcrafting). Same can be said about Garrisons and Order Halls. Blizzard only sees these as useful for the expansion they were introduced in and then abandoned thereafter. They seem to be completely reinventing the wheel each expansion and not utilizing the things that worked or were enjoyable from past expansions.
    This is definitely a trend, and one could well argue it's a problem that Blizzard doesn't stop and iterate more rather than, as you rightly say, reinventing the wheel every expansion.

    It does have practical limitations, though, that are behind their decision to do it like that. We can call it "the PoE problem", because that's effectively what that game has: a convoluted mass of systems upon systems, kept around past their initial context and interconnected and intermeshing with all future systems. The result is an opaque, highly complex AND highly complicated behemoth that not only makes it difficult for veteran players to keep everything in tune with each other, but also creates an absolutely massive barrier to entry for new players.

    Someone already pointed that out in a post above: imagine you're jumping newly into WoW, level your character, get to endgame... and now before you can do basically anything, you have to learn, manage, and invest into 8 expansions worth of systems, all of which have their own progression paths, gameplay demands, interactions, and theorycraft mechanics. Along with professions both primary and secondary, and of course the usual dungeon/raid/pvp trifecta that is the core gameplay loop of WoW - all in competition with people who may have been doing all that for A DECADE OR MORE and have an according leg up.

    It would be an absolute nightmare for old and new players alike.

    Now, does there exist some middle ground where you keep SOME things around but not everything, and have regular "soft resets" around expansions to curb the seniority issues? Maybe. Probably? But it would be so much work it's likely to be in no proportion to the actual benefit. As I said initially: there's a reason they do what they're doing - it works.

    What's more realistic is small, tentative increments. Trying to find a way to modify the core instead of constantly iterating upon the ancillaries. That's something like the talent revamp they're doing in DF, likely to stick around for several expansions in much the same way the last revamp did. Perhaps the profession stuff, too, to a degree. Those are not nearly as big as people make them out to be, but it's something. And it may be the best we can hope for, feasibly. As much as we'd like to see more fundmental interventions into what the game offers and how it does it, I think it's unlikely we'll see it simply because it doesn't quite solve the cost/benefit equation to enough satisfaction.

  15. #815
    Warchief Alroxas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    Unfortunately I don't think Blizzard thinks long term anymore (if they ever did).
    No systems from one expansion (if carried forward) are iterated on. For instance, M+ was derived from CM from MoP and WoD. Mission table from WoD moved forward in Legion, BFA and SL, granted rewards were lessened to reduce players feeling that they NEEDED to always do them.

    Do people forget how profitable Legion mission tables were? Or how you could get raid loot from sending followers to do missions?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    For instance, Inscription. That profession lasted a whole expansion before it got gutted from it's original purpose.
    Glyphs weren't a good system and considering how mandatory some of them were, it's a good thing it went away. But that profession isn't totally useless, vantus runes, DMF trinkets, tomes/codex were and still are useful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    Blizzard only sees these as useful for the expansion they were introduced in and then abandoned thereafter. They seem to be completely reinventing the wheel each expansion and not utilizing the things that worked or were enjoyable from past expansions.
    Making older content irrelevant is a good thing though. If those systems were still relevant today then it would be a lot more "chores" players would have a desire to do. Imagine telling a new player... Oh welcome to SL, here are some of the major quest things you should do along with dungeons and raids and oh yeah because of carrying older systems forward, we'll need you to go back and do BFA and Legion content too. No the rest of us who have been playing since Legion won't need to go back (we already have our Legion Artifact and BFA's HoA) but since you have neither have "fun" going back to get them and grind them out.

    There's a reason why for these recent expansions there has been a free character boost so that new players (or returning players) can proceed to the current expansion instead of having to start at level 1 (or 10 for allied races).
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    Don't be a victim of IFOWISNAWL!
    Call 800-Calm-The-F-Down, Operators are standing by. Now taking calls on all your Legion worries.

  16. #816
    I agree that WoW can't continually manage every system from each previous expansion and tack it onto the newest expansions experience. The workload put onto the player would be daunting if they haven't been keeping up to date. But, there are some items that Blizzard has managed to introduce that have continued on through each expansion. Such as Pet Battles from MoP. It's a popular side activity that has grown with each expansion (not too sure how far they have taken it since I stopped playing in BfA and didn't use the Pet Battle system). It's not really mandatory. If you want to play it you can, if you don't want to you are not penalized for that.

    What happened with scenarios from MoP? Is it my imagination or was that intended to become more than an afterthought (unless that is what Island Expeditions turned into)

    Same thing with Archeology. Blizzard could do so much more with that profession. Use it to incorporate old world lore into the game. Want to know the history behind the Plaguelands? Dig up enough tablet shards around the zone to see how those zones got that way. All the lore (world and major characters) from Warcraft 1-3 could be woven into Archeology.
    "The customer is always right" is a nice way of saying "I will put up with your bullshit as long as you pay me"

  17. #817
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    Not really? Do you really want to tell a new player (or returning player or player on an alt), hey you'll need to go back to Legion, do the intro questlines to get the artifact, maybe do the quests to unlock the NLC (NetherLight Crucible) then you can do "current" content. Oh and don't forget since we're now 2~3 expansions past Legion, the current amount of AP you'll need to grind to advance 1 level is in the quadrillion amount but don't worry, here are sources that give you around a few billion each time you complete a WQ/kill a rare/etc.

    I'll pass... Also for players who complain that Legion didn't need weapon drops... Hello, what did you think relics were? Basically weapon drops minus the name. Gave you a little more flexibility in trading until the NLC became a mechanic (gotta check the relic to see what the secondary trait could become).
    Obviously it would not be designed like borrowed power in this case, but as something like talents. The longevity always kept in mind from the get go. Artifacts were never designed with that in mind, which is exactly the problem.
    MAGA - Make Alliance Great Again

  18. #818
    Quote Originally Posted by Alroxas View Post
    So now you want Borrowed Power? After so many players have complained that they don't want borrowed power (and Blizzard listening), you now want them to go back to it?
    Actually this does not mean that this must be "Borrowed power". Having a system that allows you to get stronger by playing the game is not a bad thing. It's only bad when it's borrowed power.

    Instead Blizzard could for example add a Paragon system that gives you a little damage buff, new abilities or maybe even additional talent points when you play the game; and this does not need to be a borrowed power system. The good thing about a Paragon system would be that it does not need to be power only, cosmetics, some special abilities, new spell effects; everything could be included needing to add borrowed power.

    Nothing against having ways to increase the power outside of gear, it only becomes bad when you add it, then the next expansion comes out and poof, it's gone.
    Last edited by Velerios; 2022-09-03 at 03:50 PM.

  19. #819
    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    Actually this does not mean that this must be "Borrowed power". Having a system that allows you to get stronger by playing the game is not a bad thing. It's only bad when it's borrowed power.

    Instead Blizzard could for example add a Paragon system that gives you a little damage buff, new abilities or maybe even additional talent points when you play the game; and this does not need to be a borrowed power system. The good thing about a Paragon system would be that it does not need to be power only, cosmetics, some special abilities, new spell effects; everything could be included needing to add borrowed power.

    Nothing against having ways to increase the power outside of gear, it only becomes bad when you add it, then the next expansion comes out and poof, it's gone.
    The only problem with a paragon system in WoW is that the long term continuous players would be at a advantage when it comes to raid spots and PvP (if the paragon system extended into PvP). As for PvE raid leaders would just choose those players with higher paragon levels and any new players wouldn't be able to catch up.
    "The customer is always right" is a nice way of saying "I will put up with your bullshit as long as you pay me"

  20. #820
    Quote Originally Posted by Redwyrm View Post
    The only problem with a paragon system in WoW is that the long term continuous players would be at a advantage when it comes to raid spots and PvP (if the paragon system extended into PvP). As for PvE raid leaders would just choose those players with higher paragon levels and any new players wouldn't be able to catch up.
    I also thought of it, and yes, people might stone me for this: there is an working solution from "diablo immortal"; i know that is the McBe*h of the forums here: but their paragon system has a general level where when you are below the server level you can easier catch up while people who are way above it only get a fraction of the let's say paragon experience. And yes, i know that it is there to keep whales from falling to far behind their plancton, but this actually can work in wow too that when you are too far behind, you get more experience and have a way to catch up while keeping the hardcore players to get too far beyond the rest.

    And to make it easier for other playes: most experience should come from casual content, not high level raids, mythic+ or rated pvp.

    There's nothing bad giving people a way to increase their power through a system like this; the only problem is when you know that everything going down the drain in the next expansion. Especially if they would give out maybe even abilities this way too. But there are even solution for this; just look how good the heard of azeroth was, no, not azerite armor, this should burn in the fiery pit of blackrock mountains, no i mean the heart itself in 8.2; this was probably the best power system blizzard ever created; it was flexible, you had glyph slots to put stuff in and there was an incentive to collect stuff without making it totally shit. This was fun, and a way that could be added in an paragon environment too.

    Just make it permanent, not a temporary thing that gets removed in the next expansion, and PLEASE make it available through the UI, not by running to an table on the end of the world. I think souldbinds would only be half as bad if you could manage them whereever you are, and not being forced to run back to the faction hub.
    Last edited by Velerios; 2022-09-03 at 11:57 PM.

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