Why did they ruin the game for new subscribers?

[Myradin]

FF has an MSQ that you have to do,they seem to be doing just fine

bfa is by far the best place to start a new player off in,im not saying its amazing,but compared to all other scenarios


doesnt FF do that?

I agree BFA is a great starting experience. It is a good footing for modern wow, since Legion was kind of the big conclusion of the 'old story'.

FF and WOW are very different in story delivery however, and I think FF's story benefits from forcing people through it, while wow's is less so.

FF's MSQ is very focused from start to end, and is effectively a single throughline through the expansions up until Endwalker well, ended it. There's side quests but you dont really need to do them. Its raids are such are also more of side stories.

WoW's story telling is messier and with lots of side stories. This makes the world feel a lot bigger than FF's, and is one of its strengths. But each individual expansion is also largely a self-contained story. Also its raids are part of the story.

Its sort of like a serialized show (FF) vs an episode series (WoW). Even the player character in FF is a singular 'special', while each wow expansion finds a new excuse for the PC to be special.

Dropping into Endwalker would probably be very confusing especially with how tied up your character is in things. Whereas dragonflight you're just an adventurer going an journey to dragon land.

[Pann]

Nope. Create a dk and talk to the lich king and do those start quests, then time travel back in time at lvl 58 to travel to outland (which already happened int he timeline at this point), just to time travel back to the future to go back to fighting the lich king again.


It was always very jarring for me back in the day

Fair enough but DKs were just a small part of the expansion, they could have solved this by making DKs start at 68 but I would guess that there were practical reason for not doing so. Also don't forget DK were not available to new players so this would not be an issue for a new player.

My point with Cata breaking the timeline is that in Wrath, if you numbered each expansion and timeline it would flow 1:Classic, 2: TBC, 3:Wrath but then with Cata the timeline suddenly went 4, 2, 3 and then back to 4.

[Khaza-R]

It was fucked in wrath, DKs we're not a "small portion" of the expansion they were literally the main selling point haha. And introducing a brand new class and having them jump through time travel cuz of discombobulated story telling was always a big complaint by the community back in the day.

Wrath fucked up the timeline, cata just took it and fucked it up even more.
Possibly the devs said "eh it's already messed up who cares let's just remake everything!"

Things were a bit more time agnostic back then. Because nothing phased and pretty much everything stayed in a static state. They also added Draenei and Blood Elves to the old world in TBC but this was because originally there wasn't really supposed to be a flow of time to the world. That really came with phasing in Cata

[Itori]

The reason is that blizzard doesn’t necessarily care about their story or the players experience of the story. Its to get the new players into end game to get them hooked. Lets face it. New people who play this game didnt enter it like older players did by growing up on the wc1-3 stories and finally getting to play as one of the heroes. So new players care less about story and more about the grind and gear.

The only mmo out there that still makes players enjoy the story is ffxiv

[LanToaster]

i had no idea that choosing threads of fate would eliminate explnanations untill it was too late. IE got to shadowlands and started playing it. it isnt a decision that you can revert id have to crate an entirely new toon and start over again. and saying well its your fault is super helpful and explains everything . i understand all of thegames mechanics better than i did 30 seconds ago just by accepting im a moron. thanks for clearing that up for me.

1. You cannot Choose Threads of Fate unless you already did the Entire Leveling. (Got a Character to level 60). And if you want to Enable Threads of Fate, you get Told that all Story Quests will be Auto Completed for you, and you cannot undo that.

2. You cannot Skip the Intro Quests to Torghast, your Pact Sanctum unless you did them Already.

3. You get the Quests and Explanation to the new Zones when Apropriate. Level 60, after choosing your Covenant and doing the Intro Quests to that (Or Skipping if already done that).

You sir, are blaming the game for your very own Inability, to read/understand what you are doing. You are FORCED to do the Campaign once. You are FORCED to do the Torghast Intro Quest at least once. And so on. You cannot just "Skip the Tutorials", and then be stranded and not know what to do.

It might suck for you that you screwed up, but beeing salty doesnt help. Try Google, you are not a new Player, otherwise you would´ve gotten help in the "Newby Chat"

I'm not advocating for forcing new players into the starting zones instead of Exile's Reach, I'm advocating for letting new players start in the original zones instead if they really want to. Of course Exile's Reach should be the base option, but it should still be an option.
Like, if I had started WoW after 9.0, I would have needed to start at Exile's Reach after Warcraft 3 so I simply wouldn't have started it.

The guy I quoted in this Post is the very reason why new Players are required to do the Tutorial. Because they are just unable to get things done otherwise.

[Triceron]

I think they should just take all previous expansions and introduce Story Mode raids that can be scaled as solo/questing content.

It would be taking old raids and revamping them as low-difficulty soloable content that has Epic Quest rewards that are meant to tie in storylines between major plot points. Since this is a story focused feature, it wouldn't be a typical 40-man raid, but instead you fight alongside NPCs like in Mage Tower; some could be your followers, some are named heroes like Thrall or Jaina or Tirion Fordring. Each major raid would be retooled with more story added retroactively, with cutscenes before major boss fights instead of typical pulls. Once you complete the raids, it would show a bit of story progression and new cut scenes that tie things into the next expansion. Stuff like showing Deathwing stirring from his slumber after you beat ICC, or seeing the Mists clear from Pandaria after you defeat Deathwing.

You could go through the entire game through its raids, while new cutscenes provide context for why you're there and where the story progresses next.

[VinceVega]

They allow people who literally have no clue about the game at all and its history and know nothing about the zones from vanilla (even if they are revamped in cata) to enter immediately into zones from recent expansions that make absolutely no sense from a narrative standpoint.

The only logical explanation is "well: some of those are actually old players who were banned or lost their accounts etc." because I can't fathom why someone who has literally 0 experience in the game shouldn't go through the vanilla zones first and only there.

Because it is simply to long. Wow has always been an endgame focused game. Twinks has always been a niche activity and most people rushed through leveling.

Every expansion together was simply way too much... You would have had a few months of leveling just to get to the part with the content for new players.

Who likes to come in and pay for a MMO but then sits there and cannot play with others because he has to level through nearly 20 years of content first?

People always talk about how great FF14 is when it comes to it. But you only have to do it once there and it is not nearly as long compared to every expansion of wow if they would not have squished it.
Also you would not have finished ANY story in ANY expansion because you would never find anyone for every dungeon and raid....

[potis]

The most logical explanation is they they understand that most players—sadly—don't care about previous history and the expansions are sold as more-or-less standalone games.

For those that want to know about the history of Azeroth and play through it I suppose they'll find a way. It's all there for them although most of the zones don't make a single sensible narrative in any case (something I guess the OP would know but wants to not talk about because it largely offsets the need to complain about ruining the game for the thread).

Its not the logical explanation, its the way the game is made.

Game was and always be about raiding, the rest was just random story to explain the raids based on WC3 villains/scenarios, Vanilla-->WoTLK, didnt really have a story and everything was eh, WoTLK they fixed it a bit with the areas and by Cata revamp was the goal to make everything similar and by similar i mean, area story based quests, but things were still disconnected on the old areas, there was no sense why you had to run to Desolace, to go to Scarlet Monastery, etc.

The problem is, as someone else explained and made sense, majority of people that started WoW, started with at least WC3 history and understood what was happening, the mass of players after cause of popularity/WC3/Dota etc, pushing people to play WoW made it massive, but the core of the players knew about things.

This new generation of players that dont know the WC3 experience and grew up with it, is understandable not understanding it, they grew up with Skyrim, and expect to play some sort of single player MMO with a subscription.

GW2/FFXIV managed this with their different design where WoW failed, both games takes so long for the average player that they have the delusion of content.

WoW hasnt done that yet, imagine if they went back and revamped and created Scenarios/Story line for all expansions, you would have new players taking 400 hours reaching end game.

Which is understandable, its what people are requesting, but WoW isnt that game and the resources to convert into that game also, for its past content, is massive and they would have to break all the old things etc, or recreate them which is still, too much work.

[Zardas]

1. You cannot Choose Threads of Fate unless you already did the Entire Leveling. (Got a Character to level 60)

Don't you need to have completed the main SL storyline instead of getting a character 60 ? Because if you do the story you got to level 60 way before SL.

Also you would not have finished ANY story in ANY expansion because you would never find anyone for every dungeon and raid....

Not exactly because you would always outlevel the content enough to solo it, even the dungeons and the raids. If you start now, only the BFA raids are not soloable if you do the story in order (source : myself)

[Pann]

It was fucked in wrath, DKs we're not a "small portion" of the expansion they were literally the main selling point haha. And introducing a brand new class and having them jump through time travel cuz of discombobulated story telling was always a big complaint by the community back in the day.

Wrath fucked up the timeline, cata just took it and fucked it up even more.
Possibly the devs said "eh it's already messed up who cares let's just remake everything!"

DKs were a small part compared to 10 extra levels, 10 zones, hundreds of quests, numerous dungeons, raids, BGs, etc but yeah and as I said the continuity problem could have easily been solved by letting DKs skip TBC and enter Wrath immediately but there are obvious gameplay reasons why this did not happen.

But none of this matters as the new subscribers could not access DKs and this thread and my point is specifically about new subscribers.

[Pann]

Yes and how many new subscribers came to wow specifically for the dk? Millions

What are you even arguing here? Wrath fkd up the timeline for questing in Chronological order. Fact.

Cata took what wrath did with the timeline fuckery and amplified x100. Fact.

Maybe you didn't play when wrath was new back in the day, but I did and I remember the CONSTANT complaining about it. What even is your angle here? Did you just not know about it before now?

Seeing as they could not play them and there was not millions of extra subscribers I think that claim is doubtful.

This thread talks about zones not making sense narratively for new players, to which I pointed out that they had not done so since Cata you have, for some reason, decided to argue that this not the case because of a small part of the game that was not accessible to new players in Wrath.

The timeline for one class - that was only accessible to existing players - was briefly disrupted in Wrath. It did not disrupt the narrative for new players but it seems a really important to you... so congrats!

[sunxsera]

They allow people who literally have no clue about the game at all and its history and know nothing about the zones from vanilla (even if they are revamped in cata) to enter immediately into zones from recent expansions that make absolutely no sense from a narrative standpoint.

The only logical explanation is "well: some of those are actually old players who were banned or lost their accounts etc." because I can't fathom why someone who has literally 0 experience in the game shouldn't go through the vanilla zones first and only there.

It's just too much lore to know & learn at this point. I started in Wotlk and it took me ~1 year to have a very good understanding of the game, it's mechanics & lore.
6 Addons after it's even more to learn.
I wouldn't want to learn all of that just to have some fun, just because some random guys think i have to learn that to have fun.
Vanilla zones also look garbage, why would you bring anyone in there in 2022? The questing is also boring. "Kill x to loot item y" in 80% of the cases.
Most people don't play a game for it's history or lore - they want fun, something you seem to have forgotten.

[shadowmatrix]

It's even worse, they have to go through BfA where the main storyline literally is the worst we ever had. You would think they are trying to make us forget about that whole failure of an expansion, but no, they are doubling down on it

BFA was a initially a good story but players started to turn against BFA when N'zoth and Azshara became major players, new players won't get to those patches before moving on to Shadowlands or Dragonflight.

[Kumorii]

I feel like people who value lore, story and history of games have this misconception that majority does.
I think it's more common for people to get interested in lore and story and such AFTER you enjoy a game.

[Magistrate]

They allow people who literally have no clue about the game at all and its history and know nothing about the zones from vanilla (even if they are revamped in cata) to enter immediately into zones from recent expansions that make absolutely no sense from a narrative standpoint.

The only logical explanation is "well: some of those are actually old players who were banned or lost their accounts etc." because I can't fathom why someone who has literally 0 experience in the game shouldn't go through the vanilla zones first and only there.

The world you entered in vanilla was designed to have existed for thousands of years. Most people who played vanilla likely did not play the RTS. This argument makes no sense. It's the entire point of an MMO.

[Pann]

It was existing to all players you just had to reach level 55....You know, the same exact thing you had to do to reach level 56 with ANY class as a new player? lol you acting like DKs were only meant for veteran players is a bit hilarious and telling.

Cata did go overload on the timey wimey stuff. All I said was that it started with Wrath, idk why you choose to get all bent out of shape and want to argue so much like it didn't happen?

This is bizarre. I have no idea what your problem is.

If as you seem to think new players would level to 55 and then abandon their character to play a DK (although why anyone would purchase TBC and Wrath before they had got past classic content remains a mystery) then they would - aside from the DK starting zone - essentially be playing the game in order classic -> TBC -> Wrath.

So even in this highly unlikely scenario it does not break the narrative for new players as described in the OP.

[LanToaster]

Don't you need to have completed the main SL storyline instead of getting a character 60 ? Because if you do the story you got to level 60 way before SL.

Thats a good Question, I´m actually not sure now that you mention it. But yea, Having the Campaign makes much more sense, I usually think of both beeing the same. Because you cannot to any maxlevel activities before finishing the Zones. (And I advise everyone to keep to the Story Quests so they are not hitting 60 before finishing the Story.)

[Accendor]

BFA was a initially a good story but players started to turn against BFA when N'zoth and Azshara became major players, new players won't get to those patches before moving on to Shadowlands or Dragonflight.

Perhaps we have a very different perception and experience with the game and the community, but afaik it's the culture opposite: everything except Azshara and Nzoth was the problem (ok, actually Nzoth was handled very, very badly as well).

[MrLachyG]

Uhm no, at least, I don't think so... it's been a long time and I might be misremembering but if my memory has not failed me in Wrath there was some consistency in the timeline and therefore story. I don't remember Wrath making many changes to the content in the original Azeroth so for someone starting a fresh character the timeline would be consistent, even if Classic and TBC were set before Wrath.

This all went to pot with Cata when the Classic zones were updated to the current time which did mean players went back in time when they entered Outland and then Northrend before being returned to the present when they progressed past Wrath.

and that is exactly why Chromie Time became a thing. OP is either blatantly ignorant of that fact, or does know and is choosing to ignore it so can get up on their soapbox and go to town with another thread based on nothing.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

They try really hard to shove all new players into bfa.