[PRESERVATION] Build and Talent Discussion

[Teriz]

Which streamers are you watching?

Max from Limit was talking about how they wouldn't take an Evoker healer, AutomaticJak was talking about how bad the range is, and Growl wasn't particularly impressed by it either.

You talking about this?

Jakbcastin
@AutomaticJak
·
Jul 22
I think people are way too quick to write it off tbh and that bothers me. I’d rather have a restrictive range and more gameplay tools to maneuver efficiently than for them to just toss it in the bin

https://twitter.com/AutomaticJak/sta...02604463038464

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Yeah, most posters are pointing out a variety of things why Evoker healer is bad and there exist no reason for all of that. Range is just the biggest of all the issues, there are several more. You can find several very elaborate comments in that thread why Preservation at this point is pretty much a dead spec for most of the content.

Are you new to Beta feedback? People on those forums literally complain about everything.

Would you like to discuss the Priest feedback thread? It's almost twice as long and just as bitchy.

And for sure people are comparing Preservation to other healers, because that is the competition. And in that regard Evoker is just by a wide margin the worst of all healing specs due to several reasons. Those ominous movement tools do nothing for the class when Monk and Druid and even Restoration Shamans with Spiritwalkers Grace (and Gust of Wind) are as mobile if not more.

Which is fine, but once again, you're talking about a spec with 3-4x as many movement tools as other healing specs, and people are pretending like such tools don't matter, when movement is a huge concern for many casters.

And no, those casters are not nearly as mobile as Presevation. That's the point.

[Nyel]

Which is fine, but once again, you're talking about a spec with 3-4x as many movement tools as other healing specs, and people are pretending like such tools don't matter, when movement is a huge concern for many casters.

I don't know if you're willfully ignorant or you just want Preservation to be so good and pretend that it is when in reality it simply isn't. All of those movement tools do jack sh*t for the class and its performance. Evokers cannot reliably heal while moving because they lack respective basic skills besides Reversion that are instantly cast and have a major impact. Druids have all of their instant HoTs, Swiftmend and even CDs while being super mobile. The same counts for Monks, which can cover most boss arenas easily while being able to use their very powerful AoE healing on the move. Shamans at least have Riptide and then a lot of CDs they can use to still be an effective caster while moving (Spiritwalkers Grace).

Evokers have Reversion and Rescue, which is weirdly a movement and healing spell all in one with a huge CD, which just makes it bad. Then they have Hover which is okayish but still very short (you can fit of your weak spells into that, but no empowered) and Tip the Scales. It still doesn't solve all of the other issues that Evokers have when it comes to healing: weak spells, terrible ST healing, empower spells that feel awkward to use and don't do much and, on top of all that, a limited range of 25m. None of the other classes have these issues.

The tons of movement do not help. They just try to make a bad design choice less bad without fixing all of the other problems Evokers have while completely ignoring that all the other healing specs can do

can do the same
can do it for less and
can do it better.

I really don't know why you try to downplay or discredit some of the very reasonable criticism of Evoker design in that thread. This comment just summarizes all of the issues.

This picture helps visualizing the problem:

[Teriz]

I don't know if you're willfully ignorant or you just want Preservation to be so good and pretend that it is when in reality it simply isn't. All of those movement tools do jack sh*t for the class and its performance. Evokers cannot reliably heal while moving because they lack respective basic skills besides Reversion that are instantly cast and have a major impact. Druids have all of their instant HoTs, Swiftmend and even CDs while being super mobile. The same counts for Monks, which can cover most boss arenas easily while being able to use their very powerful AoE healing on the move. Shamans at least have Riptide and then a lot of CDs they can use to still be an effective caster while moving (Spiritwalkers Grace).

Well yes, because Druids and Shaman don't have a 70% movement burst for 4 seconds that reduces to 30% for 6 seconds that they can cast twice on a 35 sec recharge. Spritwalker's Grace for example has one charge, a 20% movement buff and almost 3x (1.5 minute) the CD.

Evokers have Reversion and Rescue, which is weirdly a movement and healing spell all in one with a huge CD, which just makes it bad. Then they have Hover which is okayish but still very short (you can fit of your weak spells into that, but no empowered) and Tip the Scales. It still doesn't solve all of the other issues that Evokers have when it comes to healing: weak spells, terrible ST healing, empower spells that feel awkward to use and don't do much and, on top of all that, a limited range of 25m. None of the other classes have these issues.

And this here is utter nonsense. How is 70% movement for 4 seconds to 30% movement for 6 more seconds that allows movement while casting with 2 charges on a 35 sec. CD mediocre? Stampeding Roar in comparison is 60% movement for 8 seconds on a 2 min CD. SWG is 20% movement buff single charge on a 1.5 CD.

And Hover isn't even the Evoker's only movement tool.

The tons of movement do not help.

On what planet does movement NOT help a caster?

can do the same
can do it for less and
can do it better.

Name a single healing spec in the game that has something like Hover.

I really don't know why you try to downplay or discredit some of the very reasonable criticism of Evoker design in that thread. This comment just summarizes all of the issues.

I have no problem with reasonable criticism, but saying stuff like absurd movement means nothing is complete nonsense.

[Nyel]

Name a single healing spec in the game that has something like Hover.

I can't list one, because none of them needs something like Hover to make the spec work. Indeed other classes have way better tools than Hover to cover that area although they do not even need it.

On what planet does movement NOT help a caster?

I'm still baffled that you don't understand the underlying problem. Movement is not the problem. That Evokers can't do anything while benefitting by their supposedly (as you say) absurd movement is. Your abilities to move around endlessly do not help when all of your spells require you to stand still to cast, some for an absurd long amount of time (Empower spells).

For their healing output, their absurd movement means nothing. Because it doesn't increase or even affect their healing output. Againg, all of this ominous movement just tries to solve a problem (the 25m range) which shouldn't exist in the first place.

And then, when we ignore the range issue, there is still nothing that makes Evoker better or at least as good as other healers.

[Teriz]

I can't list one, because none of them needs something like Hover to make the spec work. Indeed other classes have way better tools than Hover to cover that area although they do not even need it.

So you're saying that SWG and Graceful Spirit are nice to haves, not need to haves, and that resto and elemental Shaman won't fall over themselves to pick up those talents? Are you kidding here?

I'm still baffled that you don't understand the underlying problem. Movement is not the problem. That Evokers can't do anything while benefitting by their supposedly (as you say) absurd movement is. Your abilities to move around endlessly do not help when all of your spells require you to stand still to cast, some for an absurd long amount of time (Empower spells).

You use movement to get yourself in range. Range isn't an issue when you can consistently move far more quickly than everyone else on the field. Also, you use Hover on movement fights so you're not standing still to cast.

For their healing output, their absurd movement means nothing. Because it doesn't increase their movement. Againg, all of this ominous movement just tries to solve a problem (the 25m range) which shouldn't exist in the first place.

Again, it exists because you can essentially cast 5 SWGs (with better speed) in the same time span where a Shaman can only cast one.

[Rageonit]

Are you new to Beta feedback? People on those forums literally complain about everything.

You clearly have very little experience of playing a healer in a competitive environment. Incidentally, wowhead has just released an article that underlines why a mid-range character would cause all sort of problems in many of the encounters we know from SL.

Of course you will then refute: "But, but, but Blizzard will design fights differently now cuz Evokers exist!". And if you want to believe that, you're free to do so. Rest of us (who do play healers) are not so sure about that. And even if they do design fights differtently, they've just restricted themselves heavily to what can be done in a fight because of a single class. Congratz!

[Nyel]

You clearly have very little experience of playing a healer in a competitive environment. Incidentally, wowhead has just released an article that underlines why a mid-range character would cause all sort of problems in many of the encounters we know from SL.

Of course you will then refute: "But, but, but Blizzard will design fights differently now cuz Evokers exist!". And if you want to believe that, you're free to do so. Rest of us (who do play healers) are not so sure about that. And even if they do design fights differtently, they've just restricted themselves heavily to what can be done in a fight because of a single class. Congratz!

In the whole Evoker feedback thread there is one single guy defending the 25 yard range. I wouldn't be surprised if it's him.

[Teriz]

You clearly have very little experience of playing a healer in a competitive environment. Incidentally, wowhead has just released an article that underlines why a mid-range character would cause all sort of problems in many of the encounters we know from SL.

25 yards is too short when you only have 1 or 2 movement tools on minute+ cooldowns.

Of course you will then refute: "But, but, but Blizzard will design fights differently now cuz Evokers exist!". And if you want to believe that, you're free to do so. Rest of us (who do play healers) are not so sure about that. And even if they do design fights differtently, they've just restricted themselves heavily to what can be done in a fight because of a single class. Congratz!

I'm pretty sure Blizzard will design fights with the knowledge that Raids have more than one healer healing an entire raid.

[Nyel]

So you're saying that SWG and Graceful Spirit are nice to haves, not need to haves, and that resto and elemental Shaman won't fall over themselves to pick up those talents? Are you kidding here?



You use movement to get yourself in range. Range isn't an issue when you can consistently move far more quickly than everyone else on the field. Also, you use Hover on movement fights so you're not standing still to cast.



Again, it exists because you can essentially cast 5 SWGs (with better speed) in the same time span where a Shaman can only cast one.

Sorry, this is pointless. You don't understand the underlying issue, which makes any of my arguments (or the dozens in the official feedback thread) a waste of time.

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25 yards is too short when you only have 1 or 2 movement tools on minute+ cooldowns.

No, it's always too short. Your movement skills do not matter in that case because when you have two targets that are on opposite directions, you would need to move to one to cast a heal and then move back to the other one to cast a heal whereas every other caster does not have to do that. They can do the same as you without having to move at all. You as Evoker did achieve the same, yet it took more buttons to press and more time to get done.

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I'm pretty sure Blizzard will design fights with the knowledge that Raids have more than one healer healing an entire raid.

Pretty sure Blizzard will not design fights for 1 out of 13 classes. They will homogenize that one special class to fit into the ruleset of the other 12.

[Teriz]

No, it's always too short. Your movement skills do not matter in that case because when you have two targets that are on opposite directions, you would need to move to one to cast a heal and then move back to the other one to cast a heal whereas every other caster does not have to do that.

Again, you can cast 5 Hovers in the same time span where a Shaman can cast a single SWG, and for 20 seconds of that 50 second buff you're moving 70% faster. For the other 30 seconds, you're moving 30% faster, being able to cast on the move the entire time. If you need to get there faster while Hover is active, cast Rescue, and you will heal them instantly when your reach them.

Conversely, you can cast Dream Flight and fly up to 50 yds to the person on the other side of the raid.

[Rageonit]

Pretty sure Blizzard will not design fights for 1 out of 13 classes. They will homogenize that one special class to fit into the ruleset of the other 12.

This. It's so obvious that I'm baffled one could even question it.
From the designers perspective it looks like this: Do we now rethink everything about raid design to accommodate a single new class in the game, and design every encounter with that class in mind, so Evoker doesn't screw up the whole raid (think fights like Sludgefist, Lords of Dread or Skolex, where including an Evoker creates additional danger); or do we delete this "25" here in type in "40"?
Isn't the answer like, blatantly obvious...?

[Nyel]

Again, you can cast 5 Hovers in the same time span where a Shaman can cast a single SWG, and for 20 seconds of that 50 second buff you're moving 70% faster. For the other 30 seconds, you're moving 30% faster, being able to cast on the move the entire time. If you need to get there faster while Hover is active, cast Rescue, and you will heal them instantly when your reach them.

Conversely, you can cast Dream Flight and fly up to 50 yds to the person on the other side of the raid.

From the wowhead article: Having a 25 yard range when attempting to damage foes or heal allies around you means you only have 39% of the coverage you would with a 40 yard range. You end up being able to heal just 39% of the same area that you could with a 40 yard range.

If this alone doesn't convince you that the 25y range is just bad, nothing will. You can load Evoker with as much movement skills as possible, it wouldn't change this simple fact which makes Evoker - compared to every other healer - just worse in every aspect.

[Teriz]

From the wowhead article: Having a 25 yard range when attempting to damage foes or heal allies around you means you only have 39% of the coverage you would with a 40 yard range. You end up being able to heal just 39% of the same area that you could with a 40 yard range.

If this alone doesn't convince you that the 25y range is just bad, nothing will. You can load Evoker with as much movement skills as possible, it wouldn't change this simple fact which makes Evoker - compared to every other healer - just worse in every aspect.

So you believe that being able to move 70% faster and cast on the move repeatedly has zero effect on that?

[Nyel]

So you believe that being able to move 70% faster and cast on the move repeatedly has zero effect on that?

It has - in fact - zero effect on that. We are just comparing the basic heal ranges of all casters. 40y versus 25y. We are not comparing additional movement options. So in each and every case Evokers only cover 39% of the area other healers can cover. We don't even use movement scenarios in this case. By nature Evokers are less effective than every other healing class. Without contributing any other factor like encounter design, movement or whatever.

Oh, another part of the wowhead article:

As mentioned, you can make accommodations for [Evoker], but the bigger question is if [Evoker] is worth changing your strategy for.

I mean just read the final verdict, it tells you everything you need to know:

Being able to reposition quickly does help a little and Hover is our key piece of mobility. You can use it to set up better Dream Breath casts, fire a more useful Temporal Anomaly and to get you through mechanics where being fast is worth a premium. Unfortunately it isn’t sufficient to solve the range issue but it’s an interesting balance against how long Preservation cast times are. A lot of the difficult Shadowlands fights wouldn’t be solved with more mobility since you’re often not able to even move into the areas you’d like to be present in (near the blood line on Jailer or in the melee zone on Skolex). The only real solution is a 40 yard range. It’s also worth highlighting other healers mobility kits which are often similar in power to Evokers already or in some cases even stronger. We’re currently in a position where we have the slowest casts, the worst range, and do not even possess the games strongest mobility kit.

[Teriz]

It has - in fact - zero effect on that. We are just comparing the basic heal ranges of all casters. 40y versus 25y. We are not comparing additional movement options. So in each and every case Evokers only cover 39% of the area other healers can cover. We don't even use movement scenarios in this case. By nature Evokers are less effective than every other healing class. Without contributing any other factor like encounter design, movement or whatever.

You have to compare the entire kit though. It's utterly stupid to just look at part of the kit and say that it's worthless when in actual gameplay, you're going to be using all of your tools.

It's also stupid to mindlessly say that 25 yd spells covers X amount of area and completely ignore the fact that we have a spec that has several ways of overcoming that limitation. Yeah if we're talking about a Shaman or a Druid with 25yd spell range there's a problem. However if a Shaman could cast SWG 5x as often as they could now, and could fly over a battlefield and do an AoE heal, and instantly fly to a target and heal them, that limitation suddenly isn't as bad.

As mentioned, you can make accommodations for [Evoker], but the bigger question is if [Evoker] is worth changing your strategy for.

That's up to the player to decide. If they just want another healing class that can stay in a spot and be a 40yd healing turret, they have plenty of options to choose from.

We’re currently in a position where we have the slowest casts, the worst range, and do not even possess the games strongest mobility kit.

I would very much like to know who they think has a better mobility kit.

[Rageonit]

So you believe that being able to move 70% faster and cast on the move repeatedly has zero effect on that?

Is it really difficult to understand that even a 1000% movement speed increase serves only to decrease the disadvantage you have vs every other healer...? If they don't have to move, they spend 0.000s moving to heal. No matter how many speed abilities you have, having to move when others don't is ALWAYS a disadvantage. They can make Evoker move with 100% more speed at all times and they will still be at a disadvantage. And if you cover 39% of the ground vs every ohter healer, you will move a lot more. This is a given. So you will be at a disadvantage. Movement speed abilities don't make it advantageous, those only help to try and minimize the issue (but the issue is still there). How is it difficult to understand? Jeez.

[Teriz]

Is it really difficult to understand that even a 1000% movement speed increase serves only to decrease the disadvantage you have vs every other healer...? If they don't have to move, they spend 0.000s moving to heal. No matter how many speed abilities you have, having to move when others don't is ALWAYS a disadvantage. They can make Evoker move with 100% more speed at all times and they will still be at a disadvantage. And if you cover 39% of the ground vs every ohter healer, you will move a lot more. This is a given. So you will be at a disadvantage. Movement speed abilities don't make it advantageous, those only help to try and minimize the issue (but the issue is still there). How is it difficult to understand? Jeez.

It isn’t just a movement buff, it’s also the ability to cast on the move.

[Rageonit]

It isn’t just a movement buff, it’s also the ability to cast on the move.

In this particular scenario it doesn't even matter. It doesn't matter that you can cast on the move when the target is out of range. You still loose time to get to said person, while other healers are simply standing and casting.

Granted, in some scenarios being able to cast more often on the move can be advantageous, but most healers don't even need it. Most healers can't cast on the move and still kill the bosses comfortably since 2004, because of their own movement abilities and more impactful instant heals in their kit.

[Teriz]

In this particular scenario it doesn't even matter. It doesn't matter that you can cast on the move when the target is out of range. You still loose time to get to said person, while other healers are simply standing and casting.

If you're consistently moving more quickly than everyone else on the field, why does that even matter? You have multiple instant heal abilities like Rescue. So let's say I'm healing target A and target A moves out of range, if I'm moving 70% faster than target A I'll very quickly put them back into range. If I cast Rescue I basically teleport to them and heal them instantly. The idea that none of that matters is ridiculous.

Granted, in some scenarios being able to cast more often on the move can be advantageous, but most healers don't even need it. Most healers can't cast on the move and still kill the bosses comfortably since 2004, because of their own movement abilities and more impactful instant heals in their kit.

Really? I've been hearing casters complain about not having enough movement abilities for years now.

[Rageonit]

If you're consistently moving more quickly than everyone else on the field, why does that even matter? You have multiple instant heal abilities like Rescue. So let's say I'm healing target A and target A moves out of range, if I'm moving 70% faster than target A I'll very quickly put them back into range. If I cast Rescue I basically teleport to them and heal them instantly. The idea that none of that matters is ridiculous.

Did you read what I said? You're still at a disadvantage vs a healer who doesn't move at all - that movement ability only decreases the disadvantage, nothing more, nothing less. So yes, all of those movement abilities indeed matter - in decreasing the disadvantage. Do you think it's a fun design? Handicap a class and then give it some options to try and work around the handicap...?

And BTW, as soon as you used that Rescue, you probably flew out of range of OTHER people, so now you need to track back. Good luck!