KSM is too easy.

[Zarathos]

Dunno if this is a response to me or not, but just to clarify: KSM should stay at 15s. But they need to stretch out the gearing ladder for M+, not because of mythic raiders, but because of heroic raiders, who currently "should" get their gear from doing 15s and not killing heroic bosses.

Conversely M+ should *also* reward very top end gear (285) at some point, just so that you can be a world class M+er without also being a top end mythic raider.

I get what u saying but Heroic raiding is a "casual" content that u can do with a barty of ppl between 10 and 30 ppl. There are guilds that only do Normal raiding and consider Heroic "hard" and i understand that, even though i think Heroic is not difficult if u do mechanics. The moment u need to overgear the ilvl from the raid itself its the moment something is wrong...I used to do HC with Normal difficulty gear and dungeon gear and then moving to Mythic or even before full cleaning Hc moving to "fist wing" of mythic to get best gear but only to clean Hc in the first 2, 3 weeks (as a,what i call, normal/advanced?¿ player). If ppl choose to do 15 to overgear it's their "right" but the content its not designed to be beatted "legacy" mode. I've seen ppl with 3000 score that cant beat heroic bosses but obviously the problem is that they want to play the game statue mode and in m+ sometimes they can do that. I think the solution will be basically increase the difficulty of the mechanics not the "scaling" so that way u can differentiate inn a , maybe, more right way.

[M1r4g3]

The game should be designed in a way where people don't feel bad for not having the best thing if their skill/time/will or w/e doesn't allow for it, then we wouldn't need these unfair systems in general.

[epigramx]

WoW clearly is not meant to be a game of "I feel superior to others ergo I'm having fun".

That's exactly what it is. Before you answer: answer this simple question: you think people would play this game if it was purely single player?
Before you answer again answer this: do you think the majority would do it if there were no rewards/items/currencies to show off to others?

[Velerios]

I see it differently: Mythic+ should give out mythic raiding gear level... FOR MYTHIC+. The same should be true for every other thing in the game: if you want to do only this, you get the best gear for it:

People who do Mythic+ should get gear that increase the effectiveness on mythic+, who raid mythic should get the best gear for mythic raiding, for PvP you actually get it in Dragonflight somehow, and yes, for people who only want to do single player content, they should have at least equivalent gear that only works on solo content and LFG/LFR. Because honestly, why not?

Naturally it should be enough to switch into another direction, but yes, just make it that you can decide what you want to do, and you get the best gear for it when you play towards it.

[Lolock]

Oh-oh... Booster detected.

[Aresk]

I don't see what this post has to do with KSM at all, but no, I don't think KSM is too easy. It's an achievement for participating in M+ at a given level.

As for the actual gear, considering Mythic Raid awards higher ilvl than M+ at the end of the tier, that M+ gives exactly one piece of lower Mythic Raid ilvl piece per week, and that farming raid bosses is generally faster than farming M+, I think it's fair. An AOTC guild can generally kill the first few bosses on Mythic (assuming they can get 20 people), so it's not like that ilvl (278 in Season 3) is really that special. Once your Mythic Raid is downing two bosses consistently in a week, you're going to get at least as much (if not more) 278 loot as a M+ runner. All-in-all, I think it's a fairly balanced system in terms of difficulty vs opportunities for loot (particularly considering the high ilvl Mythic Raid gear from the final bosses, for which M+ has no analog).

[Rageonit]

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

You don't deserve respect for playing a game, and playing a game is not work (unless you make it work yourself, at which point you should probably rethink your priorities, especially if nobody is paying you for said work). Nobody should care about your entitlement; games are made for people to relax and have fun, not to boost your self-esteem.

[Swnem]

The problem is raiding and not mythic+.

It has an outdated model. Raids need to be smaller and easier to organise and preferably rewarding.

[Velerios]

That's exactly what it is. Before you answer: answer this simple question: you think people would play this game if it was purely single player?
Before you answer again answer this: do you think the majority would do it if there were no rewards/items/currencies to show off to others?

I think yes! (this does not include mounts, since they are really something prestige) Nowadays i would give a fuck if someone else has worse gear then me and i can feel superior over them.

I think that blizzard should CARE LESS about the butterflies AND MORE towards players in general! Having no progression in gear for what you are doing is bad for the game, and yes, i include LFR with it too. Blizzard listened more and more about the raiders, and we see what happened to wow: less and less subs. Instead they should give people a way to progress even if they don't raid or do mythic+.

As i said before: when someone only wants to do outdoor-content, give him gear that allows him do do it faster and make progress; not ONLY outdoor naturally, since the bonus should partly be a bonus in general; just slower than what raiders do and no, this should never be stronger than heroic raiding gear or equivalent to mythic+; at least the plain gear without the damage bonus that would only work in things they do: outdoor-content, and LFG/LFR. The same should be true for mythic+ and raiding. When you do it, you get gear that let you progress into it.

[Noxina]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer, not just from a gameplay perspective, but also from the amount of time an effort it takes to manage a functioning roster.

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

How does the fact that people have the same ilvl as you "hardcore cool mythic raider" dimish the value of your amazing gear?

Fuck off Timmy.

[Tech614]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

You know the first few bosses on mythic also give out mythic raiding ilvl gear right? The ones that are typically on par with or easier than the final few bosses on heroic...

For the people actually getting deep into mythic raiding they actually do get a few pieces of gear at a higher ilvl than M+ can obtain as the last few bosses are 7 ilvl higher than the max 278 you get from M+ vault. Not to mention mythic raiders gear up a lot faster than M+ only players would.

15s are an "easy" way to get gear, the same way the first few bosses of a mythic raid usually are, the same way the first bosses of old raids before difficulties where a thing where etc etc. What a non complaint, you didn't really think this through did you?

[El Gucaragua]

M+ really shouldn't be giving out mythic raiding ilvl gear.

Mythic raiding is the hardest content this game has to offer, not just from a gameplay perspective, but also from the amount of time an effort it takes to manage a functioning roster.

To give out welfare gear to +15 casuals is disrespectful to the people who actually put in the time to work for their gear.

Majority of people don't get KSM. Anyone who is getting it that shouldn't is boosting. Who cares.

[Polybius]

That's exactly what it is. Before you answer: answer this simple question: you think people would play this game if it was purely single player?
Before you answer again answer this: do you think the majority would do it if there were no rewards/items/currencies to show off to others?

The majority wouldn't play the game if rewards/items/currencies were gatekeeped by a small percentage of (shallow) players.

[cuafpr]

Ultimately, this is what it's all about though yeah? People wanting BIS gear from doing WQ.

- - - Updated - - -

Max ilvl is not always BiS though.. just means those playing a different way always have a way to improve their character strength. What's it about is those that raid mythic can't stand the thought of others getting gear on their ilvl for some reason. Tier sets could stay raids or other effects attached to gear if it helps their fragile egos. As a former progression raider, I want others to have gear ready for progression raiding it made recruiting a lot easier if I had a larger pool to choose from without having to gear them up or poach from another raid group.

[Garymorilix]

Do you believe a M+15 is as challenging as a mythic raid? Just the raw difficulty of the content, ignoring logistics.

- - - Updated - - -



So it takes the same amount of time to clear the M+15s as it does to clear the new mythic raid? Thats what you are trying to say? Do high end players spend days progressing on the same M+15 before clearing it?

Actually, yes, mostly.

Most Mythic raid bosses are actually not harder than running a M+. Usually you get 1 roadblock boss somewhere in the middle of the raid and then the end boss (or second to last in rares cases).
The first 3 bosses are easily puggable the same week cross-realm mythic opens up (sometimes even earlier depending on your realm).
The only reason people don't go pugging further is because of the Mythic lock-out system.
If the Mythic lock-out worked like it does for every other difficulty you would easily see 10/11 M pugged mythic players (maybe even 11/11 M).

There is an inherent gate-keeping built into the system.

You can only enter with a 20-man group and then you can only try bosses with that group.
In my experience the vast majority of the time the reason a group is stuck on a boss is due to 1 or 2 people who just simply can't get the fight and keep doing the same mistakes. In very rare cases the roadblock is because of gear but that usually is only a thing for 1 week.

If players could infinitely join different groups to try on Mythic bosses (which should definitely be a feature that unlocks at the end of seasons) then you would see a different picture than what you see now.

Comparing the two is unfair when you have done a dungeon 10-20 times before you even attempted a +15 and freshly facing a mythic boss that you down in an hour anyway.

Edit: Also about gear. From M+ you can get 1 mythic level loot per week.
In raid you get 3 pieces per boss PLUS the weekly. That means if you go 6/X bosses on your first week (which is what I usually see) it's possible that you get 7 Mythic pieces in 1 week while the M+ player only gets one.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

Would be nice to have something rewarding past 15. Just getting more of the same gear at higher levels feels pretty bad, though this has most likely been the easiest season there'll ever be for 15s. It feels pretty bad to have the fastest way to gear your character is to spam key levels way beyond what you can do, especially when it comes to valor.

[Somic]

What is with this game and gating people for literally no reason at all. Just play the game modes you like and stop worrying about people getting gear you think they don’t ‘deserve’.

Let bgs give mythic level gear who GAF just let people have fun

[KOUNTERPARTS]

Don't worry guys... OP is never going to respond, since they really don't care about the topic. It's clear what this thread was intended to do.

[Irian]

If anything I think this is a good indicator that mythic raiding needs to be made more accessible or easier. I don't think the problem is the wildly more popular and successful format giving out gear equivalent to harder raiding content, I think it's more a sign that things should be tuned around being easy enough that the average player can obtain that gear as well.

Gear doesn't make you get cutting edge, or suddenly become a good player. If everyone has similar gear then you should take that as an opportunity to differentiate yourself by being better than the average player. My favorite tiers have been during extremely easy gearing tiers because it let my long experience with my class shine through with results instead of loot luck.

I really hope WoW not only keeps KSM easy but continues to make the top end of gear ilvl accessible to everyone. The fact that FFXIV allows everyone to reach near-BiS every tier with time investment leads to casual players actually having a very easy entry into savage raiding as a good example of what closing the gap on gear can do positively.

[Tojara]

This point of view is one of the stupidest ones still kicking around today about WoW.

Do you feel this way when someone wins a car comparable to yours? Is your car devalued because someone else has one? How about if someone’s family helps them buy a house of the same value as yours? Are you insulted if someone has the same clothes, the same shoes? Someone else having the same book, or maybe winning a lottery to go the same musical as you, is insulting?

Who gives a flying fuck if someone else you don’t know, or will ever know (in real life, or in game), gets something that you have? How does that diminish the work you put in for what you have? Does that somehow magically erase the time you spent working for it? Do you genuinely believe anyone , aside from your in-game friends, actually gives a shit what gear you have? You’re not special, or cool, or an icon, a hero, a role model.

Stop worrying about what other people do or get in-game.

Lol this is a pretty good reply.

I think a lot of people forget that you can do both and that you just get gear magnitudes faster if you participate in all types of content. Someone who raids mythic, let alone heroic will have a significant gear advantage for a few months. Considering Blizzard pulls the plug (and most MMOs in general) every 6-7 months and resets your gear, who really cares if people catch up at all?

If people GENUINELY care about what other people do in the game they will look at when you do things based on achievement dates in the game. But guess what, nobody fucking does that ever. I know some people care about cutting edge, etc, but most people just don't. The farthest people look back in this game is generally the few who both mythic raid and look for applicants. They will look at your iLvL and logs from the current tier or a couple tiers back at most.