How did RDF ruined the social aspect??.

[Dadwen]

Yeah, because nobody's ever quit WoW for any other reason than because they were "chased away." It's perfectly normal for players to pay $15/mo to play a game for twenty fucking years.

Really? people are still not playing 20+ year old games and paying for them EQ \ Runescape sure a few others, most people I know quit playing a game when it's no longer fun, how old it is does not have anything to do with it.

what other reason do you have for them leaving (sure a few time\money\life) but the wow forums are full of people asking for the original old LK game instead of going to go play it for "free" elsewhere.

**to take a page from Ion's book, if the Dev's are soooo great and can do no wrong why don't you go play retail and stay there with all their great design ideas an let the people that wanted the 2008 design have the 2008 design....

[Exodeus]

This is now thread nr 500 about this we get it you want to farm heroics without lockouts for your min max or dungeon level your alts without any social interaction but thats not going to happen so please cry silently.

[Dadwen]

This is now thread nr 500 about this we get it you want to farm heroics without lockouts for your min max or dungeon level your alts without any social interaction but thats not going to happen so please cry silently.

Some blizzard server are so screwed up some people just want to be able to do dungeons period.

[Hotmail]

When did you start playing? Vanilla and TBC were very social games, because you *had* to have friends and a guild to get things done. Even leveling, especially in vanilla, was a *lot* smoother and easier (and fun) if you had some friends to do it with. I don't know how Classic for those worked, because I didn't come back for them. Maybe it was different, with all the knowledge and resources we have now. But back in 2004 and 2005 when WoW was new to everyone? Dude, you *had* to have friends to play with.

I started playing in very late Vanilla/Early TBC. I think you can play with people or join a guild without necessarily calling those people friends; I'd say that back then everything was mostly an alliance of convenience.

In Classic if you are competent at your role and geared, you tend to be in high demand. This is/was especially true for healers and tanks.

[Grinning Serpent]

Some blizzard server are so screwed up some people just want to be able to do dungeons period.

They should try using social tools to make friends and form groups with them.

[Hofazius]

I'm starting to lose track of all the changes they do to WotLK and don't care anymore. Let them do what they want, I'm going to enjoy it anyway. Why they feel the urge to radically change some things is beyond me, though. Doing the same in Vanilla/TBC would've resulted in hundreds of changes.
Not having RDF right from the beginning is ok for me since it wasn't there in 2008 as well. Although I've always liked doing quick heroics via RDF over the years for badges, enchanting materials, some gold, mounts or to just kill 15 minutes of spare time. With the WotLK heroics being so easy and travelling creating quite an overhead I guess I won't be doing that many dungeons after I've got everything I need (which will be the case pretty quickly). If that's the intention of the anti-RDF crowd: have fun doing dungeons without me. You could see to what this leads in TBC. Heroics were completely dead for many months until they came back with the prepatch and XP boost.
As a person knowing both RDF and non RDF expansions I don't see any reason against RDF. It was ok without it in Vanilla and TBC, because completing a dungeon took quite long there. 5-15 minutes travel, 40-60 Minutes dungeon feels ok (not that I WANT to travel, but it's tolerable, it's mostly afk-flying anyway (great gameplay!!)). Communication never happened, except for when we wiped or at the end of a dungeon after having completed it without any problems and without writing anything into the chat before.
I've also never realized the social aspect of spamming "LFM xy" into the chat for 90 minutes and then giving up. I begin to think that this "(server) community" never existed in the past and is just some washed-out romantic memory.
I personally don't care about LFR, if Classic Cata becomes real. The only thing about it I didn't like in the past is if you need to do it to get tier set items quicker or for other reasons. "Bad players" being able to see my precious content without progressing hundreds of tries? Couldn't care less.
I really don't see anything bad in it. Players who've never raided but now can see the raids? Perfect. Players who've raided and are now satisfied by only doing LFR? Why not. They would've probably stopped raiding soon, anyway. People also seem to think the LFR is "stealing" players from their raids. Would you really like to raid with people who choose LFR over a "real raid"?
Again: I don't like it being mandatory for players who are already raiding N/HC/M difficulty to gear up/or collect badges etc.

[Dadwen]

They should try using social tools to make friends and form groups with them.

ya that always makes people appear out of thin air that are not on the server in the first place.....

Might as well tell me to go grave rob and play Dr Frankenstein, "my creations come play wow with me".......

**Beside I'm reserving my outside social tools to warn people that are expecting the original LK game, that's not what they are getting here.

[shise]

It all comes from vanilla, where you´d spend an evening doing 1 dungeon. Gathering people, going there.. doing it.. You´d end up creating contacts, even friends for future runs.

Same in BC but much easier.

Same in WotLK but much easier.

With this tool, you miss the essence of this and instead build up toward toxicity, as people now will dare to misbehave much easier.

[NihilSustinet]

IMO RDF doesnt hurt the social aspect as long as it is not cross-server (or cross-faction)

[Itisamuh]

It all comes from vanilla, where you´d spend an evening doing 1 dungeon. Gathering people, going there.. doing it.. You´d end up creating contacts, even friends for future runs.

Same in BC but much easier.

Same in WotLK but much easier.

With this tool, you miss the essence of this and instead build up toward toxicity, as people now will dare to misbehave much easier.

While true, most people would likely rather deal with an annoying person for at most half an hour, before blissfully forgetting they exist after the run ends, rather than dealing with wasting half an afternoon putting together a group, hoping on an off chance they might be both friendly and talkative beyond necessity, as well as not annoying, which was not always the case at all.

[shise]

While true, most people would likely rather deal with an annoying person for at most half an hour, before blissfully forgetting they exist after the run ends, rather than dealing with wasting half an afternoon putting together a group, hoping on an off chance they might be both friendly and talkative beyond necessity, as well as not annoying, which was not always the case at all.

Yeah, I just answered that´s all

I agree, but at the same time I think it is a good move to not have the tool at launch. It is completely unnecesary as there will be tons of people around.
By the time we finish with Ulduar you can expect a lot going off until ICC.. so that will be a very smart time to bring it into the game with TotGC. And then it will be super welcome by everyone too.

[confety]

they could implement it for pre 80 content to help people leveling

still i dont get why its so despised, people will be fully geared in 1/2 weeks and obliterate naxx in a month

farming gear was really easy in wotlk and you did NOT need to do heroic dungeons at all, so this will eventually only damage casual players

i know because i was there in 3.3 and i didnt use the lfd tool EVER with my main as everything was low ilvl and farming icc was way faster than getting emblems

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Part of the problem with the RDF debate is they totally hid one of the primary systems of their reasoning until like 5 days before the release. For like 2 months it was "just cuz we know better" and refusal to talk about it which was a pretty terrible take to give. Then like a week ago they drop "oh we designed this whole new system where difficulty increases and 10 man loot transfers over into the loot tables" and it is like.. oh.. well that kind of makes a little more sense at least. For sure at max level. The loss of it for the whole leveling process and the total death of most if not all leveling dungeons is still kind of a problem but ok, at least something is there.

[Sanguinerd]

What social aspect anyway? It's always been such a horseshit argument. Spamming trade LFM and then barely speaking isn't more social than just queueing up and going.

RDF ruined nothing.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

What social aspect anyway? It's always been such a horseshit argument. Spamming trade LFM and then barely speaking isn't more social than just queueing up and going.

RDF ruined nothing.

Some people, apparently and not myself, feel this is a keystone of the game.

[Jowany]

Yea.. because spamming LFG channel is much better, right?

I dont know why they cant implement same tool as LFG on retail, much betten than this one.

RDF isnt thing that killed social aspect, its players. Event with this super social tool there is noone typing expect "Hi" and "Thanks, bye".. instead of social spect, you waste time forming group, waiting for tank/heal, travelling and leaving your location with quests.

With RDF I found more random friends than without it.

[Uurdz]

Universally people seem to misunderstand why LFD/LFR changed the social dynamic.

Put simply before LFD/LFR to get into a group required you to be actively invited. As there was a wide range of skill/experience types those invites often resulted in runs ending early as someone leaves/rage quits etc. Naturally players wanted to avoid this situation which gives them limited options. 1 strong one was to find a good player and add them as friends. Then whenever you run a dungeon you try run with someone you know is good, and your runs become more stable. They themselves will include or invite other raiders you haven't played with before but someone they can vouch for.

So now you've got the basis for a guild - where player attitude/performance is largely the same. Now that guild tag builds up a reputation. Guilds who are well respected will get quickly invited into groups. So now the guild tag is creating social value, and players in that guild who cause bad reputation will get quickly removed.

Behave in the other way, like leaving early, healing/tanking poorly or pulling threat/not knowing mechanics - and that group will never reinvite you. You've caused the group to now have to lose time as they replace you or the run has fallen apart. They might even post in LFG about it to hurt your name further. The guild your in might not like that, and could choose to kick you. Or perhaps your guild doesnt care - regardless their reputation takes a hit too! The cost of bad groups was high to all players.

So now you've got the social elements of:
1. Making friends with likeminded people
2. Making a guild full of like minded people
3. Receiving benefits from being in said guild
4. If you're bad the inverse of the above occurs (unguilded players were often not invited)

Of course you can join a group without this, but it made finding good groups tremendously easier. The best groups often formed within a guild chat without any non-Guildy getting the opportunity to join. The benefits of behaving in a socially acceptable way (in some case this just means being good, even if ur a toxic person) become self-evident.

Now with LFD that is completely removed. You dont need to be friends or in a guild because you'll get put into a group and placed in the dungeon. If the run starts going poorly and someone leaves, a replacement is nearly automatically found and you continue on. Many of the downsides to bad groups are removed completely. In fact poor behavior gets you kicked immediately as a replacement occurs.

LFD has removed the vast majority of negative consequences socially when playing the game.

Therefore, the incentives to group up in a social fashion like in Vanilla WoW drop off significantly.
Combine this with the fact dungeons become far easier than compared to Vanilla and TBC and you have the perceived and actual lost of social interaction. It still exists, its just not critical to playing the game as it was originally.

I highly doubt that introducing LFD into WOTLK will have a meaningful impact on the social element of the game. Though I personally don't care if they have it or not (because i have wow friends and a good guild).

[Orange Joe]

They should try using social tools to make friends and form groups with them.

Social tools = pressing a button checking boxes and leaving a note saying "invite me to your group"......

Soon much social interaction.....

[StrawberryZebra]

Behave in the other way, like leaving early, healing/tanking poorly or pulling threat/not knowing mechanics - and that group will never reinvite you. You've caused the group to now have to lose time as they replace you or the run has fallen apart. They might even post in LFG about it to hurt your name further. The guild your in might not like that, and could choose to kick you. Or perhaps your guild doesnt care - regardless their reputation takes a hit too! The cost of bad groups was high to all players.

This is exactly where Primadonna tanks came from. They could hold an entire group hostage by threatening to leave and given how hard it was to find tanks if they left that was your run over, particularly because any new tank you'd get would potentially be missing out on loot and badges and could just as easy find a full run group as they could a part finished one.

What if said tank is in one of the best guilds on your server and they now start calling you out in LFG for everyone to see - Who are people going to believe, them or you? I know from tanking in WotLK it was entirely possible for a tank that out geared the group to be miles ahead on damage and healing so theres the option to make everyone but themselves look incompetent.

It takes more soft skills than most WoW players have to resolve that kind of situation and allow the group to continue - At least as my experiences pugging M+ go. And before you try argue that it's a different set of players, I'd like to point out that I first learned these skills in WotLK, both pugging LFD and as a guild leader. I've been keeping them on point in both in TBCC and M+. Though in fairness, D&D players are even worse than WoW players in this department, which is saying something.

So now you've got the social elements of:
1. Making friends with likeminded people
2. Making a guild full of like minded people
3. Receiving benefits from being in said guild
4. If you're bad the inverse of the above occurs (unguilded players were often not invited)

What you're actually describing here is the forming of a clique. I'm sure everyone has stories of how they joined a guild and there was this core group of players who constantly made their own dungeon and 10 man groups made entirely of guildies which was an exclusive club. This is exactly how that happens. It creates an in group and an out group. They don't strengthen wider social bonds, they weaken them and can be highly destructive if left unchecked.

LFD has removed the vast majority of negative consequences socially when playing the game.

This is why LFD is potentially a good thing. It makes it easier to move on from bad social interactions and it helps protect you from the fallout of a catastrophic failure of a group. It gives a layer of protection against uneven power dynamics, where someone is holding the group over a barrel or in the other situation where there are 3-4 players from one guild and they guy they've pugged who's getting mocked relentlessly on Discord and will probably be kicked before the last boss. It doesn't remove them entirely but it gives something at least.

It also protects players from some abusive loot practices which are far more common on Classic servers than they ever were on retail. It evens the playing field for everyone when you can roll on whatever you need. It removes the entitlement to big ticket items that some players seem to think they deserve by gracing you with their presence. I've even had people join my groups and insist that I let them hard reserve items or they'd leave. Sometimes a whole list of things. Showed that MFer the door is what I did ¬_¬.

It also doesn't enforce a social contract the way forming a group does. Some people really struggle with the kind of steps that joining a group involves and the impersonal nature of LFD doesn't impose any expectations on them. This alone is a huge accessability issue for a wide range of people, everyone from the neurodivergent to people who struggle with language barriers. That almost consequence free environment makes a solid safety net that prevents players who struggle to interact with others from falling through the cracks.

Overall you've taken a very narrow view point when looking at the problem. There are some complex power dynamics in place with group content sometimes and conflicting issues and personalities within them. You've made the underlying assumption that all players are good, play well with others and will have others who can't wait up to be friends with them. This is a critical failing of this line of thought. There will be players at all points of the skill bell curve in dungeons, and most players are going to fall somewhere within the average range.

Even players in the same skill ranges may have different outcomes they want from a dungeon run, which might end up with conflict if they don't align well enough. Not everyone is doing a dungeon to socialise, some people just want their Daily/ Badges and to GTFO. Some are there to impress and are looking for a guild to scoop them up. Some want to take their time, enjoy taking in the sights and sounds and don't want to rush. While others are doing their 50th run for a trinket, or weapon or what have you and are burnt out and jaded by the whole thing.

Finally, you need to remember that a lot of the games social interaction doesn't take place in the game anymore. A lot of it is going to be on Discords and more still is driven by social media in a way that it just wasn't back in 2008. The gaming landscape has changed to be almost unrecognisable from what you're describing. I won't say it never happens, but it seems to be the exception now rather than the norm.

[Grinning Serpent]

This is exactly where Primadonna tanks came from. They could hold an entire group hostage by threatening to leave and given how hard it was to find tanks if they left that was your run over, particularly because any new tank you'd get would potentially be missing out on loot and badges and could just as easy find a full run group as they could a part finished one.

Cool. Kick the problem player, find a replacement. You're making this out to be harder than it has to be. If you are a class that can heal or tank or both, you should be using quest rewards or occasionally flicking through auctions for cheap off-spec gear. You can always swap specs if needed, it's not like dungeons are hard enough to demand optimal gear or specs. Strictly speaking, a Ret Pally can heal a dungeon and an Arms Warrior can tank a dungeon just fine. It will be a bit slower and less efficient, but it's still doable.

What you're actually describing here is the forming of a clique. I'm sure everyone has stories of how they joined a guild and there was this core group of players who constantly made their own dungeon and 10 man groups made entirely of guildies which was an exclusive club. This is exactly how that happens. It creates an in group and an out group. They don't strengthen wider social bonds, they weaken them and can be highly destructive if left unchecked.

*What?*

No, you have that backwards. What weakens and erodes social bonds is an anonymous, automated format wherein there are little to no consequences for negative behavior (basically, don't spam slurs in chat and you're probably fine), as that means people can be loot goblins or just plain terrible at the game and there's no consequences.

More importantly, there are no incentives to be a good player or person. Without RFD, you have to contend with the possibility of "making a name for yourself," whether positive or negative. And since you want to group with like-minded players, you want to add the cool/good people to your friends list so you can do stuff with them again.

This is the very basis for human socializing. You call it form cliques, I call it literally how civilization works. So I'm really perplexed as to how you're saying it's a *bad* thing.

This is why LFD is potentially a good thing. It makes it easier to move on from bad social interactions and it helps protect you from the fallout of a catastrophic failure of a group. It gives a layer of protection against uneven power dynamics, where someone is holding the group over a barrel or in the other situation where there are 3-4 players from one guild and they guy they've pugged who's getting mocked relentlessly on Discord and will probably be kicked before the last boss. It doesn't remove them entirely but it gives something at least.

I'll give credit to these horror stories when they are actually more than once in a blue moon. The reason you're making these bogeyman stories is because they allegedly happened this one time and here's some pictures of chat to prove it but definitely don't ask for context and don't worry we wouldn't make this stuff up for internet points.

It also protects players from some abusive loot practices which are far more common on Classic servers than they ever were on retail. It evens the playing field for everyone when you can roll on whatever you need. It removes the entitlement to big ticket items that some players seem to think they deserve by gracing you with their presence. I've even had people join my groups and insist that I let them hard reserve items or they'd leave. Sometimes a whole list of things. Showed that MFer the door is what I did ¬_¬.

You already found the solution to loot anxiety - run your own groups. Or run in groups headed by people you know to be fair with loot. And in dungeons, it has literally always been "need if it's an upgrade for main spec, greed otherwise," and I have yet to encounter any group that doesn't obey this basic unspoken rule. I'm sure they do exist, but I don't think they're as common as you're making them out to be. There's a caveat that you can need if it's an upgrade for an off-spec, but only if main spec hasn't rolled need on it. Sometimes people get accused of being loot goblins when it was simply a misunderstanding or accident (particularly on items that can't be easily ruled out of certain classes, like rings or backs.)

It also doesn't enforce a social contract the way forming a group does. Some people really struggle with the kind of steps that joining a group involves and the impersonal nature of LFD doesn't impose any expectations on them. This alone is a huge accessability issue for a wide range of people, everyone from the neurodivergent to people who struggle with language barriers. That almost consequence free environment makes a solid safety net that prevents players who struggle to interact with others from falling through the cracks.

That's valid, but seriously - how common is this actually? People that are *so* neurodivergent or whatever that they're utterly incapable of joining groups on their own power. Because in my experience, you just put yourself into the LFG tool with what specs you are interested in playing, maybe add comments about specific specs or items you're after, and then let others take the wheel if you can't or won't do it yourself for whatever reason.

Overall you've taken a very narrow view point when looking at the problem. There are some complex power dynamics in place with group content sometimes and conflicting issues and personalities within them. You've made the underlying assumption that all players are good, play well with others and will have others who can't wait up to be friends with them. This is a critical failing of this line of thought. There will be players at all points of the skill bell curve in dungeons, and most players are going to fall somewhere within the average range.

Dungeons are very easy and don't require anything more than *actual* average players (which are always a *LOT* worse than what people believe "average" means.) So it's fine.

Seriously, what shithole are you playing on that everyone you've met is an asocial loot goblining asshole? Maybe you should leave that server and find a better one. I have literally not had a single negative experience in dungeons on Maladath. There have been a few quiet runs where no one really talks much beyond asking for summons or saying they will come summon, but most have been friendly and I've made a lot of friends to do content with in just a couple weeks of play.

Even players in the same skill ranges may have different outcomes they want from a dungeon run, which might end up with conflict if they don't align well enough. Not everyone is doing a dungeon to socialise, some people just want their Daily/ Badges and to GTFO. Some are there to impress and are looking for a guild to scoop them up. Some want to take their time, enjoy taking in the sights and sounds and don't want to rush. While others are doing their 50th run for a trinket, or weapon or what have you and are burnt out and jaded by the whole thing.

Cool, LFG is literally better at satisfying these disparate wants and needs than RFD ever will be. Because each person can form their own group that caters to their specific desires, or join one that does, whereas RFD literally just grabs the 5 nearest players of appropriate spec and ilvl and tosses them into the dungeon together.

You are literally making the case *for* LFG with this line of reasoning.

Finally, you need to remember that a lot of the games social interaction doesn't take place in the game anymore. A lot of it is going to be on Discords and more still is driven by social media in a way that it just wasn't back in 2008. The gaming landscape has changed to be almost unrecognisable from what you're describing. I won't say it never happens, but it seems to be the exception now rather than the norm.

Again, I have to ask exactly how much are you actually playing? Because people talk a lot in game and I've never felt the need to try and contact these people from out of the game. Yes, if and when I move into raiding there will probably be a shift to Discord or Teamspeak for VC, but at least for Naxx and Ulduar normal/10, I don't think it will be necessary. After all, there have been people that have completed savage and even ultimates in XIV without ever using VC and only using chat macros for diagrams, and those are *far* harder than non-hardmode Ulduar/ICC content.

But, again, that's just how socializing works, dude. Eventually you have a group of players that usually play together... you call it a 'clique', but we usually call them guilds or clans... and maybe they decide to make a Discord server (or IRC server, back in 2009 - which regularly happened!) so they can organize things a bit easier. They meet more people, they invite them to the server, and so on.

I've made and managed several clans and guilds across many games over the years and literally every single one started out as "some people started playing together and it went from there." That is *literally* how basic human interaction and socializing work.

Now, I don't really care if RFD makes it into the game. I'd be *completely* fine with a version that is not cross-server and does not teleport you into/out of the instance (though how this is an improvement over LFG you'd have to explain to me), but full on Retail(tm) RFD wouldn't make me quit, either. But the devs have specifically said they don't want things in the game that will disrupt the concepts of teamwork and socializing that defined classic WoW, so I think you're just raging at the heavens if you're actually expecting RFD to be added.

I would much rather they put effort into making the LFG tool less shitty. Seriously, just fucking copy XIV's Party Finder tool as a starting point...