What do you think pantheon of death and life are?

[Super Dickmann]

Hopefully the next victim of a retcon just like when they toyed with Elune being a naaru and then a naaru progenitor.

[Aucald]

Hopefully the next victim of a retcon just like when they toyed with Elune being a naaru and then a naaru progenitor.

It's fully possible for Elune to be the progenitor of the naaru without being one herself - the naaru always struck me more as constructs than as organic beings in any case. Seems entirely likely that Elune crafted the elder naaru herself for whatever purpose she had, then set them loose to do their thing. Perhaps Elune considered the Void a threat to her own domain, Life, and opted to utilize the Voids' antithesis essence, the Light imbued with sentient life, to actively combat it.

[Super Dickmann]

It's fully possible for Elune to be the progenitor of the naaru without being one herself - the naaru always struck me more as constructs than as organic beings in any case. Seems entirely likely that Elune crafted the elder naaru herself for whatever purpose she had, then set them loose to do their thing. Perhaps Elune considered the Void a threat to her own domain, Life, and opted to utilize the Voids' antithesis essence, the Light imbued with sentient life, to actively combat it.

It's less whether you can square the two but that both are mistakes. Elune was unique in all of Warcraft lore by not having any origin or classification, deliberately so. The flirtation with doing so earlier was a mistake, SL actually committing to it was much worse. It gives her not just an implied origin and connection, but also gives her lines and canonical actions. It turns her from a symbol and a presence into a character and a character who's first action is to commit a filing error trying to help a close relative. A relative with a much more concrete origin as being put out by the demiurges of the setting which has a knock-on effect on Elune. Elune got the absolute worst deal out of anyone in SL and the only way to reduce the damage is to nix this backstory as quickly as possible. What was done with her is the sum of every complaint about demystification put together.

[Aucald]

It's less whether you can square the two but that both are mistakes. Elune was unique in all of Warcraft lore by not having any origin or classification, deliberately so. The flirtation with doing so earlier was a mistake, SL actually committing to it was much worse. It gives her not just an implied origin and connection, but also gives her lines and canonical actions. It turns her from a symbol and a presence into a character and a character who's first action is to commit a filing error trying to help a close relative. A relative with a much more concrete origin as being put out by the demiurges of the setting which has a knock-on effect on Elune. Elune got the absolute worst deal out of anyone in SL and the only way to reduce the damage is to nix this backstory as quickly as possible. What was done with her is the sum of every complaint about demystification put together.

Eh, that's more of a YMMV type of complaint. I understand the issue with demystification, as it's similar to what hit the Old Gods some time ago when their origins were revealed, but that's also part and parcel of telling a story that can't rightly end. In order to further storytelling, you're always going to be in the process of revealing motivations and unveiling backstory, unless you simply don't explore those story elements (meaning you're at a fundamental standstill). And yes, WoW could've always opted to let Sargeras, the Old Gods, Elune, et al remain in the background forever while it explored other story arcs or lore, but that's not the choice that was made. Micro or macro, you'll always have the same issue as a story unfolds - details get revealed, the mists of lore get stripped away, and on and on it goes. The more we know about Elune, the less mystical Elune would ultimately prove to be.

Danuser tried, in his way, to restore a degree of mystery by pushing outward and creating a new, unknown force (the First Ones) to serve as WoW's mystified background. Again, YMMV as to how successful this was, and whether or not this new backstory type of lore compares favorably with the older stuff.

[Super Dickmann]

Eh, that's more of a YMMV type of complaint. I understand the issue with demystification, as it's similar to what hit the Old Gods some time ago when their origins were revealed, but that's also part and parcel of telling a story that can't rightly end. In order to further storytelling, you're always going to be in the process of revealing motivations and unveiling backstory, unless you simply don't explore those story elements (meaning you're at a fundamental standstill). And yes, WoW could've always opted to let Sargeras, the Old Gods, Elune, et al remain in the background forever while it explored other story arcs or lore, but that's not the choice that was made. Micro or macro, you'll always have the same issue as a story unfolds - details get revealed, the mists of lore get stripped away, and on and on it goes. The more we know about Elune, the less mystical Elune would ultimately prove to be.

Danuser tried, in his way, to restore a degree of mystery by pushing outward and creating a new, unknown force (the First Ones) to serve as WoW's mystified background. Again, YMMV as to how successful this was, and whether or not this new backstory type of lore compares favorably with the older stuff.

Elune is sui generis. Chronicle endeavoured to transition Warcraft from soft to hard magic, applying a frame retroactively to material intended with a much looser approach, but it didn't even try with Elune. Her being inexplicable beyond her relation to the night elves, an ineffable god that's exclusive to them is her entire concept. Any extrapolation past that defeats her purpose and any explanation you can offer after 20 years, throughout which Elune has always been present and would continue to be, would fail because it wouldn't match the hype. The Old Gods and Titan explanations made both worse and Chronicle as a whole shrank the setting to the point where something like SL was mandatory to avoid penning the writers in now that there was no higher instance, but they've in their favour that at the time of writing 3 out of 4 Old Gods were defeated and the Titans were off world. We knew exponentially more about both of those even pre-Chronicle than we did Elune and they were, unlike Elune, characters with definable personalities and actions outside the realm of myth, even familial relations and lines in the case of the Titans. Not the case for Elune pre-SL. To add to this, the changes made to the Old Gods and Titans served a purpose in so far as it slotted them across the cosmology and would define the role the left-over Old God and the Titans in Legion would do. However poor those stories may be, they hinged on revelations made there. Elune was deliberately left out of the cosmology and the effect of having her physically appear and speak, with definable actions attached, only diminished her in standing and answered questions that nobody was asking, like why the night elves went to hell in a story hinging on everyone going to hell.

In addition, the thing that makes a lot of people hate SL's worldbuilding and which is an aspect of it I quite like, i.e that the mechanical nature of what's presented is deliberate, not an unintentional byproduct but with the artificiality as a major focus is something Elune's plot line has nothing to do with. There's no reflection by any participant about what her relationship with the WQ implies about what Elune is, no night elf considering the role of their goddess as a fallible construct. Her story is perfunctory, falls into the same pitfall Chronicle avoided, diminishes the one it's focused on and goes nowhere. It's a purely destructive exercise on one of the only remaining deliberate blanks in the setting. Made even worse considering that, as you point out and I agree, the addition of the First Ones is a deliberate backtrack away from Chronicle solving every aspect of the setting and leaving no higher instance except Elune around. By shredding the only lasting higher mystery for a wretched plot beat in a terrible storyline only to add another layer of mystery out of whole cloth it eliminated a mainstay of the setting since Day 1, core to the playable races, did nothing with that revelation and then poisoned the well for their ersatz mystery.

[Aucald]

Elune is sui generis. Chronicle endeavoured to transition Warcraft from soft to hard magic, applying a frame retroactively to material intended with a much looser approach, but it didn't even try with Elune. Her being inexplicable beyond her relation to the night elves, an ineffable god that's exclusive to them is her entire concept. Any extrapolation past that defeats her purpose and any explanation you can offer after 20 years, throughout which Elune has always been present and would continue to be, would fail because it wouldn't match the hype. The Old Gods and Titan explanations made both worse and Chronicle as a whole shrank the setting to the point where something like SL was mandatory to avoid penning the writers in now that there was no higher instance, but they've in their favour that at the time of writing 3 out of 4 Old Gods were defeated and the Titans were off world. We knew exponentially more about both of those even pre-Chronicle than we did Elune and they were, unlike Elune, characters with definable personalities and actions outside the realm of myth, even familial relations and lines in the case of the Titans. Not the case for Elune pre-SL. To add to this, the changes made to the Old Gods and Titans served a purpose in so far as it slotted them across the cosmology and would define the role the left-over Old God and the Titans in Legion would do. However poor those stories may be, they hinged on revelations made there. Elune was deliberately left out of the cosmology and the effect of having her physically appear and speak, with definable actions attached, only diminished her in standing and answered questions that nobody was asking, like why the night elves went to hell in a story hinging on everyone going to hell.

In addition, the thing that makes a lot of people hate SL's worldbuilding and which is an aspect of it I quite like, i.e that the mechanical nature of what's presented is deliberate, not an unintentional byproduct but with the artificiality as a major focus is something Elune's plot line has nothing to do with. There's no reflection by any participant about what her relationship with the WQ implies about what Elune is, no night elf considering the role of their goddess as a fallible construct. Her story is perfunctory, falls into the same pitfall Chronicle avoided, diminishes the one it's focused on and goes nowhere. It's a purely destructive exercise on one of the only remaining deliberate blanks in the setting. Made even worse considering that, as you point out and I agree, the addition of the First Ones is a deliberate backtrack away from Chronicle solving every aspect of the setting and leaving no higher instance except Elune around. By shredding the only lasting higher mystery for a wretched plot beat in a terrible storyline only to add another layer of mystery out of whole cloth it eliminated a mainstay of the setting since Day 1, core to the playable races, did nothing with that revelation and then poisoned the well for their ersatz mystery.

I would disagree on both the scores that Elune is unique, and that the circumscribed story from Chronicle and Legion, in addition to Shadowlands, had no effect or impact on Elune's concept. Elune doesn't have to be directly mentioned to be impacted - and the changes Chronicle dovetail nicely with those in Legion where it is revealed Elune is their likely progenitor and, to a degree, acts through them as her vehicle (which hearkens back to Velen's potential confusion of Elune being a naaru herself). That being said, neither Chronicle nor Shadowlands really perform a hard classification or its requisite diminishing of Elune - we still don't know her exact nature, and although we can infer a number of things about her we can't be sure if those inferences are necessarily fact. She's the sister of the Winter Queen, for example, but does that mean she's on the same relative tier as the Winter Queen as a former construct created in a Zereth dimension of her own, or that their "sisterhood" is a more metaphorical one owing to their shared natures and roles, albeit divided between Life and Death? It's still quite possible that Elune remains the universe's sole deity, as it were, and has an origin beyond what we've thus far inferred.

Some speculation holds that Elune herself is one of the First Ones, perhaps the only of their number who opted to remain in creation to oversee and/or influence it. Elune may also be something completely unaccounted for in the designs of the First Ones - perhaps she is the product of the nebulous "seventh force" that exists outside the pattern, representing the will of life to be its own thing or somesuch. There's a lot of narrative wiggle room for Elune, in other words.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

I have been scoping the cosmos and I have found a star whose name is very similar to Elune's in World of Warcraft. It's Elnath-Beta Tauri. That star is a blue giant. I would laugh if Elune was an actual Tauren constellar, which is an actual zodiac constellation. The most hilarious thing about this is that it's located in between Orion (Rygelon) and Perseus (Algalon). I haven't found the Tauren lineage, but it would seem that Zandalari Trolls and Tauren are Azertoh's native species. Even Brann Bronzebeard believes that the tauren may ultimately be descended from an unknown bull Ancient, or some kind of animal spirit predating the Emerald Dream. Let's just wait till Azeroth wakes up, and it would appear to be a female cow. Oh my god!

[Magistrate]

They are not a pantheon whatsoever.

A Pantheon in the sense this thread is talking about, is the ruling group of entities governing a cosmic plane and its magic.
The Shadowlands has the Eternal Ones.
Life has Elune and whoever else they wanna add.
Order has the OG Pantheon we know and love.
Void has the Void Lords.
Light has god (heh) knows what.
And nobody knows who knows what the Fel Pantheon is, or if there even is one given its the plane of Disorder.

Elemental Lords are just powerful elemental Spirits that end up in a representative or ruling position, each Planet has one.
Draenor has its Furies, we have our colorful psychos.


The Elemental Planes are a creation of the titans, a big pocket dimension to imprison Azeroths particularly volatile elementals.
They don't exist outside of Azeroths sphere of Influence.

Thank you for this

[Super Dickmann]

I would disagree on both the scores that Elune is unique, and that the circumscribed story from Chronicle and Legion, in addition to Shadowlands, had no effect or impact on Elune's concept. Elune doesn't have to be directly mentioned to be impacted - and the changes Chronicle dovetail nicely with those in Legion where it is revealed Elune is their likely progenitor and, to a degree, acts through them as her vehicle (which hearkens back to Velen's potential confusion of Elune being a naaru herself). That being said, neither Chronicle nor Shadowlands really perform a hard classification or its requisite diminishing of Elune - we still don't know her exact nature, and although we can infer a number of things about her we can't be sure if those inferences are necessarily fact. She's the sister of the Winter Queen, for example, but does that mean she's on the same relative tier as the Winter Queen as a former construct created in a Zereth dimension of her own, or that their "sisterhood" is a more metaphorical one owing to their shared natures and roles, albeit divided between Life and Death? It's still quite possible that Elune remains the universe's sole deity, as it were, and has an origin beyond what we've thus far inferred.

Some speculation holds that Elune herself is one of the First Ones, perhaps the only of their number who opted to remain in creation to oversee and/or influence it. Elune may also be something completely unaccounted for in the designs of the First Ones - perhaps she is the product of the nebulous "seventh force" that exists outside the pattern, representing the will of life to be its own thing or somesuch. There's a lot of narrative wiggle room for Elune, in other words.

Chronicle and Legion didn't change Elune except swap the context of her. If anything, it made her more otherworldly by not signing her up to any of the cosmic powers. Legion only alluded to a naaru origin that was already alluded to by way of Velen. What neither did was give her any canonical lines or concrete actions that had a direct, material effect and also didn't humanize her. She didn't have relations, lines, explicit emotions etc. She was divine in the classical sense. The only such force given that as of Chronicle absolutely every other participant had some kind of definable identity, motive and attributable actions. SL ditched this. She has a sister, she has dialogue, she has a major action she's involved in and that action was a fuck-up that failed. It's not a question of whether that fuck-up 'makes sense' given her available information or the setting introduced or even that the dialogue she has is boring. It's that all of these things exist and that she's now tied to an explicit 'tier' for her as a sibling of the Winter Queen. Elune's ignorance about the function of the afterlife in the detailed area precludes her from being a First One, and that's aside from her being a First One also being a bad move for other reasons. She's now tied to a specific origin - the mechanism of the Zereths, either directly because she was made in it or by virtue of being a sibling soul to the Winter Queen.

Whatever Elune may go on to be and whatever retcons take place, she'll never be a Black Box again and this diminishes her. More than that, no story is made out of her being out of the box. The narrative glances over it without doing anything with it, taking a pointless and damaging turn to decades of mystique and then not even appending any pay-off to it. Making her a First One, besides just being incongruous, would actually be worse, because it'd then stretch that demystification over a tier higher. The main benefit of the First Ones is that they're the pure version of what the Titan content went after in places like Ulduar or with the Cata dragon reveal. Faceless demiurges mechanically imposing order into iterations of whatever they handle. Giving them faces, names and most of all retarded actions kills this and nullifies the point of their existence.

[Aucald]

Elune's ignorance about the function of the afterlife in the detailed area precludes her from being a First One, and that's aside from her being a First One also being a bad move for other reasons. She's now tied to a specific origin - the mechanism of the Zereths, either directly because she was made in it or by virtue of being a sibling soul to the Winter Queen.

Not necessarily - that precludes the notion that the designed function of Death is working according to the First Ones' designs, which as we're shown in Shadowlands isn't really the case. Elune could conceivably be a First One and not know that the machinery she had hand in designing had been broken by Zovaal, as she was counting on its normal operation like a builder would in most cases. It also presumes a kind of omniscience on the part of the First Ones, which they may well not possess - a First One would be exceedingly knowledgeable about how the metacosm works, by dint of having created it, but may not necessarily be conscious of third parties working to subvert that machinery from within. As for being tied to the Zereths, that's also equally unknown because you're assuming that the "sisterhood" of the Winter Queen and Elune isn't metaphorical in nature, which definitely a possibility.

Whatever Elune may go on to be and whatever retcons take place, she'll never be a Black Box again and this diminishes her. More than that, no story is made out of her being out of the box. The narrative glances over it without doing anything with it, taking a pointless and damaging turn to decades of mystique and then not even appending any pay-off to it. Making her a First One, besides just being incongruous, would actually be worse, because it'd then stretch that demystification over a tier higher. The main benefit of the First Ones is that they're the pure version of what the Titan content went after in places like Ulduar or with the Cata dragon reveal. Faceless demiurges mechanically imposing order into iterations of whatever they handle. Giving them faces, names and most of all retarded actions kills this and nullifies the point of their existence.

Nothing can remain a Black Box when it takes an active role in a given story, which kind of hearkens back to my original point. The only way to avoid this effect is not to use them, which relegates them to background lore in perpetuity. Not that I mind background lore at all, but beyond fleshing out a given story it doesn't and can't really do anything to further the story. The developers made the choice, for better or worse, to make Elune a part of the story - in doing that, she's going to have to go through the process of revelation, also for better or worse. Now it's just a matter of what they do with her, and everyone's subjective take on whether that makes for a good narrative or not.

[Super Dickmann]

Not necessarily - that precludes the notion that the designed function of Death is working according to the First Ones' designs, which as we're shown in Shadowlands isn't really the case. Elune could conceivably be a First One and not know that the machinery she had hand in designing had been broken by Zovaal, as she was counting on its normal operation like a builder would in most cases. It also presumes a kind of omniscience on the part of the First Ones, which they may well not possess - a First One would be exceedingly knowledgeable about how the metacosm works, by dint of having created it, but may not necessarily be conscious of third parties working to subvert that machinery from within. As for being tied to the Zereths, that's also equally unknown because you're assuming that the "sisterhood" of the Winter Queen and Elune isn't metaphorical in nature, which definitely a possibility.

SL's plot hinges on the First Ones predicting the entire course of events and planting plot devices that we use at core points in order to stop the on-going plan. They do this to iterate on the current design and eventually scrap it and start anew. See also Firim's notes from 9.2 on how they never intended the design to last, etc. That's not to say that Elune isn't one or that Blizzard won't change any of this at a whim, their willingness to dunk far more established godlike entities for the sake of strange plot turns is the premise of the discussion after all, but that at present we've no reason to think so. We've every reason to think Elune and the Winter Queen's sisterhood is as literal as it gets for demigod soul robots and that they occupy the same scheme and tend to each other, hence Elune fed-exing the WQ some souls and misplacing them in hell. The bottom line is she's a personality, canonical actions, relations and a heavily implied origin on the basis of those familial connections, none of which she had prior to the expansion, all of which make her a smaller figure.

Nothing can remain a Black Box when it takes an active role in a given story, which kind of hearkens back to my original point. The only way to avoid this effect is not to use them, which relegates them to background lore in perpetuity. Not that I mind background lore at all, but beyond fleshing out a given story it doesn't and can't really do anything to further the story. The developers made the choice, for better or worse, to make Elune a part of the story - in doing that, she's going to have to go through the process of revelation, also for better or worse. Now it's just a matter of what they do with her, and everyone's subjective take on whether that makes for a good narrative or not.

Elune didn't require to be in the forefront and gods acting through miracles is as bog-standard fantasy writing as it gets. Elune acted in Legion by raising Ysera to the stars and in Vanilla by turning that one satyr into a night elf, but she did so without any explanation as to how she did so, which power source she was connected to and without delivering any line. It's not only possible to have a Black Box feature in the story and be associated with events, with Elune it's been done and has been done for years longer than she's been her current strange, underexplored iteration. By giving her these things her prior features are abolished. Presumably you could argue for her current version, how I've no idea, but that her previous iteration has been effectively eliminated as an element of the setting is simple fact.

[Xilurm]

I wouldn't really use the terms "pantheon" or "gods" for 3D printed robots with room temperature IQs.

The Titans might as well been created in just the same way.

Here's the thing though. Without the Titans life wouldn't be as it is yet they are not the "Pantheon of Life". They are just the ones ordering life.

Are they messing with things that's out of their jurisdiction? Do they even know?

Sargeras apparently found out about the Void Lords and was terrified of them, implying he didn't know about them before. And yet the Winter Queen and Elune are "sisters" implying they are very well acquainted.

The Void Lords go around spreading the Old Gods across the universe causing chaos and death, the Titans go around and mess with life as they see fit. Meanwhile Life and Death work in unison.

Is it possible the Pantheon of Death and Life are privy to more of the First Ones secrets and are much more aware of things than the other Pantheons?

What's the First Ones game?

[Aucald]

SL's plot hinges on the First Ones predicting the entire course of events and planting plot devices that we use at core points in order to stop the on-going plan. They do this to iterate on the current design and eventually scrap it and start anew. See also Firim's notes from 9.2 on how they never intended the design to last, etc. That's not to say that Elune isn't one or that Blizzard won't change any of this at a whim, their willingness to dunk far more established godlike entities for the sake of strange plot turns is the premise of the discussion after all, but that at present we've no reason to think so. We've every reason to think Elune and the Winter Queen's sisterhood is as literal as it gets for demigod soul robots and that they occupy the same scheme and tend to each other, hence Elune fed-exing the WQ some souls and misplacing them in hell. The bottom line is she's a personality, canonical actions, relations and a heavily implied origin on the basis of those familial connections, none of which she had prior to the expansion, all of which make her a smaller figure.

Elune had a definitive personality well before Shadowlands, as we knew she was a goddess devoted to peace and serenity, with associations of night, the moon, and so forth. Shadowlands is also far from the last time she's directly interceded in events, as well - she safeguarded Tyrande with an impassible shield of moonlight in The War of the Ancients trilogy, she disapproved of Goldrinn's warmongering and violence, and granted Jarod Shadowsong a vision of his departed wife Shalasyr on the occasion of her death, allowing them both to relieve the best moments of their lives together as a sort of goodbye before conducting her soul to the afterlife personally. As for the First Ones, Firim's own revelations demonstrate that their knowledge isn't omniscient in nature, as their design was itself finite, and we know it was subject to manipulation as Zovaal was successful in doing so in the first place. Whether or not Elune is a First One herself is more open to interpretation - I doubt it myself, but that also doesn't imply her sisterhood with the Winter Queen is the literal variety, nor does it imply that Elune and the Winter Queen are even the same order of being.

Elune didn't require to be in the forefront and gods acting through miracles is as bog-standard fantasy writing as it gets. Elune acted in Legion by raising Ysera to the stars and in Vanilla by turning that one satyr into a night elf, but she did so without any explanation as to how she did so, which power source she was connected to and without delivering any line. It's not only possible to have a Black Box feature in the story and be associated with events, with Elune it's been done and has been done for years longer than she's been her current strange, underexplored iteration. By giving her these things her prior features are abolished. Presumably you could argue for her current version, how I've no idea, but that her previous iteration has been effectively eliminated as an element of the setting is simple fact.

Depends on the nature of the miracle(s) in question, really. Her handling of Ysera is indeed one of the more general and far-reaching miracles you could credit her with, but as detailed above, she's also acted on an interpersonal level to safeguard her favorites like Tyrande, to give individuals gifts they didn't even ask for, and even chastised Wild Gods for acting out. Of course, you could make the same argument for all of WoW's demigod-tier characters when it comes to unexplained powers. How does the Primus invent the language of Domination in his spare time? How does Rezan create a shield of Light and then do some kind of spirit stomp to create wind to fill the sails of a Zandalari vessel? How did the Titans create life? I agree with the stance that you can have active characters be a Black Box feature, but then that's kind of obvious on its face when a character transitions from being a background lore element to an active element in the story. Elune used to be a background element, and now she's taking a somewhat more active role in the story - that is going to strip away some of her mystique as a matter of course, it's unavoidable. That's a choice that was made by the writers, for better or worse, as I said before.

[Maljinwo]

I have been scoping the cosmos and I have found a star whose name is very similar to Elune's in World of Warcraft. It's Elnath-Beta Tauri. That star is a blue giant. I would laugh if Elune was an actual Tauren constellar, which is an actual zodiac constellation. The most hilarious thing about this is that it's located in between Orion (Rygelon) and Perseus (Algalon). I haven't found the Tauren lineage, but it would seem that Zandalari Trolls and Tauren are Azertoh's native species. Even Brann Bronzebeard believes that the tauren may ultimately be descended from an unknown bull Ancient, or some kind of animal spirit predating the Emerald Dream. Let's just wait till Azeroth wakes up, and it would appear to be a female cow. Oh my god!

Elnath is just Taurus' second brightest star, with the brightest being Aldebaran. I doubt Blizzard really went that way with Elune. Specially being the second brightest.

Also, Tauren are well of eternity modified descendants of the Yaungol

[Aucald]

The Titans might as well been created in just the same way.

Here's the thing though. Without the Titans life wouldn't be as it is yet they are not the "Pantheon of Life". They are just the ones ordering life.

Are they messing with things that's out of their jurisdiction? Do they even know?

Sargeras apparently found out about the Void Lords and was terrified of them, implying he didn't know about them before. And yet the Winter Queen and Elune are "sisters" implying they are very well acquainted.

The Void Lords go around spreading the Old Gods across the universe causing chaos and death, the Titans go around and mess with life as they see fit. Meanwhile Life and Death work in unison.

Is it possible the Pantheon of Death and Life are privy to more of the First Ones secrets and are much more aware of things than the other Pantheons?

What's the First Ones game?

I think it would be a mistake to think other "Zereth" type set-ups all function in the same ways with the same results as Zereth Mortis does - since all the realms operate differently, and with different functionality when compared to Death. We know, for example, how Titans are created - they are formed within designated worlds, gestate by consuming ambient Arcane and Spirit energies, and then born as living worlds themselves, creatures of gigantic proportion and immense strength. The worlds they're born from may indeed have some kind origin in a Zereth of some sort, but that's quite different from how the spirit/vessel/constructs in Zereth Mortis are fabricated and then given life by anima and soul essences.

As for the roles of the various powers and forces, that could all be down to the design of the First Ones' metacosm and how it's supposed to function. Order, Disorder, Void, and Light could easily be seen as the movers and shakers of the metacosm, more or less, and represent the forces that are intended to essentially shape and influence the physical universe, pulling it this way and that, providing the universe the stew of essences needed for complex life and actions to take place. Life and Death assume more passive roles, acting as the machinery that keeps it all going, or the structure that provides the setting for everything else to take place in. In this context, it makes sense that Life and Death might be a bit closer to the First Ones in the overall sense, as well as more apt to work together, because working interdependently they're both parts of the same coin, so to speak.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

Elnath is just Taurus' second brightest star, with the brightest being Aldebaran. I doubt Blizzard really went that way with Elune. Specially being the second brightest.

Also, Tauren are well of eternity modified descendants of the Yaungol

Maybe, but still it would be fun as hell. Since Taurus fits Emerald Dream like none else. Ahahah!

[Progenitor Aquarius]

Y'all talking about Elune being a First One and I'm over here thinking that's the dumbest shit ever. She has more connections with Life, aspects of Druidism, etc than many would like to admit, realistically. Using shadows or light simply implies she takes a more twilight aspect in ways regarding Life, and that moonlight is crucial in that balance for saeguarding Life and whatnot. She has a Pillar of Creation likely because she aided the Titans in giving Eonar and co blessings to safeguard Life across the Dark Beyond, and she likely has connections with the Naaru due to her possibly giving LIFE to Light constructs.

Is it that fucking odd to suggest that she's likely a Cosmic Lord of Life? Prolly not...

- - - Updated - - -

"Her being the WQs sister isn't a finality"

Except it's clearly implying we'll likely go to the Realms of Life in a later expac, and that whatever happens in 10.0 and whatnot will connect to Elune and the WQ plus their realms.

The Primus talks about Elunes role, we got a fucking zone with that plot continuing for Dragonflight, the First Ones likely may not have a proper conceivable identity tbh and are likely elsewhere rn, so who knows...

Just seems VERY much weird to call her a First One. It really doesn't look right.

She is just a moon, a piece of debris, just like her sister and all these Eternals in the Shadowlands. I was just speculating if she could be a part of something greater in the past. A star that exploded into pieces. Even Harbaron said when he died: Life... death... I am but one ripple in the eternal ebb and flow. So, it’s all possible.

[Super Dickmann]

Elune had a definitive personality well before Shadowlands, as we knew she was a goddess devoted to peace and serenity, with associations of night, the moon, and so forth. Shadowlands is also far from the last time she's directly interceded in events, as well - she safeguarded Tyrande with an impassible shield of moonlight in The War of the Ancients trilogy, she disapproved of Goldrinn's warmongering and violence, and granted Jarod Shadowsong a vision of his departed wife Shalasyr on the occasion of her death, allowing them both to relieve the best moments of their lives together as a sort of goodbye before conducting her soul to the afterlife personally... Depends on the nature of the miracle(s) in question, really. Her handling of Ysera is indeed one of the more general and far-reaching miracles you could credit her with, but as detailed above, she's also acted on an interpersonal level to safeguard her favorites like Tyrande, to give individuals gifts they didn't even ask for, and even chastised Wild Gods for acting out. Of course, you could make the same argument for all of WoW's demigod-tier characters when it comes to unexplained powers. How does the Primus invent the language of Domination in his spare time? How does Rezan create a shield of Light and then do some kind of spirit stomp to create wind to fill the sails of a Zandalari vessel? How did the Titans create life? I agree with the stance that you can have active characters be a Black Box feature, but then that's kind of obvious on its face when a character transitions from being a background lore element to an active element in the story. Elune used to be a background element, and now she's taking a somewhat more active role in the story - that is going to strip away some of her mystique as a matter of course, it's unavoidable. That's a choice that was made by the writers, for better or worse, as I said before.

Bundling all this here, because the point about Elune having acted prior is one I already acknowledged before and gave examples of and more examples don't muddy the point, especially given you accept she can act without being a Black Box. The issue with her powers isn't that we don't have a step by step manual where we did either, but that certain powers come with certain 'movesets' and general views that center where they last. Ergo, the Primus is a powerful necromancer and knows domination magic, ergo raising people and controlling them is part of his skillset. Were he to instead grow flowers this would be incongruous with his skilset, muddy the nature of these powers and his identity. So long as Elune was a black box with no established power source, she could conceivably do everything as she was a capital G God and had no established limits or bounds save for a whim. More than that, as you acknowledge, this is no longer viable if she's moved to be a character over a force as she has been now and her prior version can no longer function in light of the new one, which brings us to the point of it - I'm not only making a descriptive case on Elune's stance, but a qualitative one. We both agree that she no longer fills her last niche, so what have we gained in return? If I begin by saying that the point of Elune has been defeated and what we've received as a trade-off is shit there needs to be a positive argument in her support instead of only a descriptive one regarding what exactly took place that ultimately ends up agreeing with me anyway.

As for the First Ones, Firim's own revelations demonstrate that their knowledge isn't omniscient in nature, as their design was itself finite, and we know it was subject to manipulation as Zovaal was successful in doing so in the first place. Whether or not Elune is a First One herself is more open to interpretation - I doubt it myself, but that also doesn't imply her sisterhood with the Winter Queen is the literal variety, nor does it imply that Elune and the Winter Queen are even the same order of being.

SL deals with fate for most of its plot. That it's nailed down and predictable in the very least its broad strokes to the point of situating landmarks that they know will last long enough for characters to use them however improbable it may be so they can deal with the Bald Man is a core premise of the plot. The Bald Man himself knows that fate is key which is why he has the Loom to try and manipulate it to his favour and why he's so shocked when the PC interacts with the plot device at the start. This is of course unexplored, but Firim's document is very explicit about the end point - that the First Ones knew this would take place and were leaning towards another iteration of the world's current setup. Where all this ties in with Elune is that Elune lacks that foreknowledge - she can only communicate with her sister very obliquely, she's explicitly ignorant about the course of what she does, she's emotional in so far as the WQ gets upset with her and refuses to engage forward. Sisterhood by itself assumes the same familial 'tier'. It's not whether this can be arranged either, it's near certain the First Ones and Elune alike will go through another set of changes given their reception, it's the story as it stands.

[Mace]

Doesn’t matter either way it will be destroyed. Under his command or not. Can’t just have Death dominating the whole universe, it’s worse than great nothing. The only acceptable option is for each force to be in balance.

It's another thing I'm not quite sure of, the realms seem quite liveable and "normal" albeit with different set of rules - makes me wonder why they need to exist. If death is just a continuation of life - why does it need to exist. This is what the philosophy of the system falls short.

Still, there is a sense to it, because at least life and death are totally separated, and at the end of the day, we don't have to understand the purpose - we can relate to it's existence, because in our lives, once we die, we're gone from it, and if there is an afterlife realm, like the shadowlands, who's to say. We have philosophers and religions that profess the truth about such matters and some know the meaning of life or the purpose of death, though not everyone can understand it or believes them. It's not like science where you can prove things, because in general we can't access that place. There are people who have claimed to, as they've died and come back to life, and have had experiences. But as we can't do an experiment to prove it, as we have no control over that process - it comes down to whether you believe them or not.

In Warcraft, there does seem to be a system to the shadowlands, that doesn't exist in life. Or there is a natural order and natural rules that govern the cosmos and pattern of life true, so warcraft writers have created one that governs death and this is how it works. It seems entirely created to govern souls of sentients. Almost like a way to either correct or or reprogram without removing free will. But to what end? If you just stay there forever, then isn't that the more permanent realm and the living realm is eists just to provide fuel, or to create new souls to populate the shadow realms. Then how do you deal with the concept of immortality or eternity in the living realm?

To me, it makes more sense if some races were meant to be immortal in the living realm (like wild gods) and thus get recycled, but some were not, life generates them, and once they've lived, they die, going into the afterlife, fuelling anima, but having an existence there as part of it's order.

If this is the goal, it doesn't make sense that every one is mortal. Draenei, Night elves at least should be examples of immortal races, in the humanoid race category - which is separate from eternals in the non-humanoid category like wild gods, elementals who have a specific function they perform to maintain the living realm. for humanoids whether immortal or mortal - this can work for me. Another thing that can work is if differnt races were beings from differnt planes and when they die they all go back to those palnes. But tha'ts not how they did, living beings are light that eventually get physical form and the combination makes you who you are (in this world anyway, according to chronicles - which is now classed as the titnas' perspective)





Also, if you have other realms based on cosmic forces - why do you need a realm for every cosmic force? This is why on the other topic, I was pretty sure that they don't have other "realms" like the shadow lands, it makes no sense.. realm of the living (with it's pantheon of life), and realm of the dead (with it's pantheon) of death - are what exist in tandem.

Light is light, and void , that within the light are spaces that exist. We have the twisting nether which is connected to the universe in a way. But to think there is another realm based on arcane or life magic or elemental magic doesn't make sense at all. That's not to say there aren't beings that govern this - but it wont' be like this side of life called life, and the other side called death.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

It's another thing I'm not quite sure of, the realms seem quite liveable and "normal" - makes me wonder why they need to exist. If death is just a continuation of life - why does it need to exist. This is what the philosophy of the system falls short. Still, there is a sense to it, because at least life and death are totally separated, and at the end of the day, we don't have to understand the purpose - we can relate to it's existence, because in our lives, once we die, we're gone from it, and if there is an afterlife realm, like the shadowlands, who's to say. We have philosophers and religions that profess the truth about such matters and some know the meaning of life or the purpose of death, though not everyone can understand it or believes them. It's not like science where you can prove things, because in general we can't access that place. There are people who have claimed to, as they've died and come back to life, and have had experiences. But as we can't do an experiment to prove it, as we have no control over that process - it comes down to whether you believe them or not.

Also, if you have other realms based on cosmic forces - why do you need a realm for every cosmic force? This is why on the other topic, I was pretty sure that they don't have other "realms" like the shadow lands, it makes no sense.. realm of the living (with it's pantheon of life), and realm of the dead (with it's pantheon) of death - are what exist in tandem.

Light is light, and void , that within the light are spaces that exist. We have the twisting nether which is connected to the universe in a way. But to think there is another realm based on arcane or life magic or elemental magic doesn't make sense at all. That's not to say there aren't beings that govern this - but it wont' be like this side of life called life, and the other side called death.

Life cannot exist without death. Existence is dualistic. Even elements have a dualistic nature, which means there is always an opposite trait to their fundamental force. Water, for example, will have two characteristics: tranquility and indecisiveness. In order to create, you need to destroy. Even in your life, things work this way. Space in the cosmos is also something; it's a dimension. You need space to put something in there. Without space, you can't do it. So the Jailer's plan was to end this cycle without having a better alternative. A separate realm for each cosmic force is necessary because they collide with one another. It's like you put too much salt into your soup to the point where it won't be consumable, so you put only as much as it’s required. The same is with the forces that need to stay in balance.