[TV] She-Hulk: Attorney at Law (*SPOILERS*)

[Endus]

I wonder how ethical it is to effectively eavesdrop on opposing counsel. If you did that by technological means, you'd get disbarred SO fast. But I guess he gets a pass because, uh, superpowers?

Well, 1> He's usually not "out" as Daredevil.
And 2> Using technological means to listen in to a opponent and their client is an intentional step taken to breach privacy. If they're just in earshot, you've always got plausible deniability at least. From what I recall, he never actually uses that stuff directly in court, because he'd have to justify how he knew that. But it can inform him enough to ask the right questions or look for evidence/witnesses in the right places.

[Biomega]

Well, 1> He's usually not "out" as Daredevil.
And 2> Using technological means to listen in to a opponent and their client is an intentional step taken to breach privacy. If they're just in earshot, you've always got plausible deniability at least. From what I recall, he never actually uses that stuff directly in court, because he'd have to justify how he knew that. But it can inform him enough to ask the right questions or look for evidence/witnesses in the right places.

Sure he's got deniability - the question isn't "would they catch him" the question is "is it ethical". They don't know he can hear them in a situation where others would not be able to; that's why they're not taking extra steps to protect their privacy. They have a reasonable expectation that they're not being overheard. He's intentionally withholding the fact that he does hear them from them, knowing that it gives him an advantage/puts them at a disadvantage. That sounds like a textbook case of unethical to me. It may not be ILLEGAL, but it sure sounds like it would be UNETHICAL.

[eschatological]

Daredevil is like the least ethical lawyer ever, just like Batman is the least ethical detective ever. Ethics don't really come into play for superheroes.

[Endus]

Sure he's got deniability - the question isn't "would they catch him" the question is "is it ethical". They don't know he can hear them in a situation where others would not be able to; that's why they're not taking extra steps to protect their privacy. They have a reasonable expectation that they're not being overheard. He's intentionally withholding the fact that he does hear them from them, knowing that it gives him an advantage/puts them at a disadvantage. That sounds like a textbook case of unethical to me. It may not be ILLEGAL, but it sure sounds like it would be UNETHICAL.

It's like if cops find a logbook in an illegal search that clearly delineates a gang's criminal activities and contacts. They can't use that logbook in court, legally. They can use it as the basis for further investigation, ethically. If they can find information that confirms the logbook, they can present that without any ethical or legal issues. The courts have weird requirements about forgetting facts that are questionably obtained, but that doesn't apply to investigations. It just means the logbook and its info can't be entered into evidence in the court proceedings. That's it.

Same basic standard applies to lawyers. If you go into a bathroom and you can hear opposing council berating their client over something actionable through the vents, you can still investigate based on that. Hell, you can probably cite it directly in court; you being able to overhear is opposing council's failure to ensure privacy, and there isn't any standard for maximum acceptable hearing ranges. This gets squirrely when you put yourself into a position to overhear, knowingly, but with Matt, he can literally just hear them from where he's sitting. Lawyers aren't ethically obliged to turn off their senses, just not to take overt actions that could be construed as unethical. And "I can hear you from here just fine" isn't such an action. And all that's just to ensure you can present it in court and base questions on what you overheard; if you hear that they have to "shut Missy up before they find out about her" and you go back to the office and do your investigative thing to find this Missy and interview her and enter her as a witness on your behalf, you have absolutely no legal or ethical duty to justify how you figured out she knew something. All that matters is she does have information relevant to the case and you're not pressuring her or paying her unduly to elicit a false statement.

One of the biggest issues with ethical questions like this is that it's almost always based on intent; if Matt took action to overhear, that's ethically problematic, if he just . . . can, where's the standard for human vs superhuman hearing in the ethics code?

All this of course brings us around to there really needing to be accounting for superpowers in the ethical codes for professions in these settings.

[Witchblade77]

He is an excellent, well educated and dedicated attorney.
He is also partnered with an excellent, well educated and dedicated attorney.

He also has super senses to such a degree that he can not just overhear any opposing conversations, he also knows when they’re lying. It’s a big advantage.

well... YES. but even without supersenses he is very very good. the point is, jen is not like "the bestest at everything evah, she is perfect and has no flaws" is what i'm trying to say. She is a well rounded character that's good at some things, not do great at others. just because some things appear to have come easy for her (and neverminded that show actualy justifies that her flexibility etc is due to her having actualy practiced yoga before, its NOT new to her), doesn't mean everything does, ever. quite the opposite.

I'm also trying and failing to remember where the heck did Jen EVER continuously yelled at people other then in her mind (4th wall asides she does).

yelling at your cousin, because you feel comfortable enough with him (you know being close family and all) doesn't count. if you have never yelled at your siblings or cousins - you are either lying, or you are an only child.


on Matt vs Hulk. its kind of like one of those visible vs invisible disabilities. Hulk form is kinda hard to hide and I 100% understand and sympathize with her boss (and btw, so does Jen, even as she complains about catch 22 of getting fired for doing the right thing - she expected Hulk to be detrimental to her career and wanted to hide it for that exact reason).

that you hear things that help you find leads to go after? is not nearly as obvious.

and I could be wrong here, but is it really unethical if all it does is help him discover the truth more effectively?

[eschatological]

It's like if cops find a logbook in an illegal search that clearly delineates a gang's criminal activities and contacts. They can't use that logbook in court, legally. They can use it as the basis for further investigation, ethically. If they can find information that confirms the logbook, they can present that without any ethical or legal issues. The courts have weird requirements about forgetting facts that are questionably obtained, but that doesn't apply to investigations. It just means the logbook and its info can't be entered into evidence in the court proceedings. That's it.

No they can't. It's fruit from the poisonous tree (the initial illegal search). Illegal and unethical. You'd have to separate it far from the illegal search to admit it, the whole "new" investigation can be invalidated by it, especially if the new investigation requires probable cause based on what was found in the logbook. You'd need something else to corroborate.

Now, hearsay is a different story. Hearsay is witness testimony that can't be admitted in court because of reliability and misinterpretation issues. But you can use someone's secondhand statement (a statement about something they heard happened from someone else) to investigate it as a rumor or tip.

Same basic standard applies to lawyers. If you go into a bathroom and you can hear opposing council berating their client over something actionable through the vents, you can still investigate based on that. Hell, you can probably cite it directly in court; you being able to overhear is opposing council's failure to ensure privacy, and there isn't any standard for maximum acceptable hearing ranges. This gets squirrely when you put yourself into a position to overhear, knowingly, but with Matt, he can literally just hear them from where he's sitting. Lawyers aren't ethically obliged to turn off their senses, just not to take overt actions that could be construed as unethical. And "I can hear you from here just fine" isn't such an action. And all that's just to ensure you can present it in court and base questions on what you overheard; if you hear that they have to "shut Missy up before they find out about her" and you go back to the office and do your investigative thing to find this Missy and interview her and enter her as a witness on your behalf, you have absolutely no legal or ethical duty to justify how you figured out she knew something. All that matters is she does have information relevant to the case and you're not pressuring her or paying her unduly to elicit a false statement.

This is also untrue. If you hear privileged information that the lawyer/client reasonably expect to be privileged (IE, there's no invited third party there to "break" privilege), you basically have to A) inform the opposing counsel you heard it, and B) pretend you never heard it if they invoke privilege. This literally came up in the Alex Jones case recently, where the facts were even more loose, where the opposing counsel unwittingly/mistakenly sent privileged information to the defendant's counsel. The defendant's counsel informed Jones's attorney, and only after the failure to assert privilege by the plaintiff's lawyer, was he allowed to use it in court.

Matt Murdock is a very unethical lawyer.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

For someone who claims she can control her anger better than Bruce Banner ever could, she proves in one whole ass episode to be completely incapable of doing just that and it reeks of hypocrisy. Clearly it was written by writers who live in a bubble and show a significant lack of lived experience if that is how they think women should behave towards others, both in and out of a professional work environment. Guaranteed a woman like Jen wouldn't last very long in my line of work with the terrible attitude she has because clearly she can't get along with colleagues who want to give her advice and help her.

She proved very well that she controls her anger better than Bruce did, not "ever could". She can will herself to revert back to Jen form... Bruce had to wait until Hulk calmed down (or got KO'd) before he got control again. You people are looking so hard for the "Anti-man" angle that doesn't exist that you miss everything else.

[Zoibert the Bear]

What an absolute shocker that one of the people complaining about Black people in LOTR is here complaining about She Hulk not being "attractive enough".

Oh no, someone being consistent with an opposing point of view...!

Sticking to source is an actually reasonable point of view to have.

[Ragedaug]

I'm also trying and failing to remember where the heck did Jen EVER continuously yelled at people other then in her mind (4th wall asides she does).

yelling at your cousin, because you feel comfortable enough with him (you know being close family and all) doesn't count. if you have never yelled at your siblings or cousins - you are either lying, or you are an only child.

I'm guessing this question is directed at me, though I didn't say she continuously yelled, so maybe I'm wrong. What I was saying is that she rage screamed at least twice, but I think more. Once for sure at Bruce. Once at the aggressive drunks who were following her after she left the bar. We've seen Hulk do that, and it's explained that Bruce isn't in control. The monster is. So the rage screaming / roaring makes sense. But in Jen's case, she tells us that she's 100% in control. And it's not normal for anyone to roar at strangers or even there cousin, especially if you are bragging about how much control you have over your emotions.

And yeah, I have 2 sisters who angered me many times and I never once roared at them. So I just don't think that's normal behavior.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

She literally bend over and screams at people at the top of her lungs multiple times in the show. How is that self control? I'm going from a baseline that she tells Bruce she is 100% in control of her hulk form, that's it's 100% her, not a rage monster that takes over, like what happened to Bruce.

This is such a stupid take on atleast the bar scene.

Jen isn't able to control her anger because after she's, in a car crash, starts to transform, blacks out, wakes up in a weird place with no idea what's going on or the state of Bruce, and then is followed and harassed after she tells a group of guys to leave her alone.

Like you really think that having self control means that no matter what happens she should always have her anger 100% in check even when in a really fucked up and confusing scenario?

[Witchblade77]

I'm guessing this question is directed at me, though I didn't say she continuously yelled, so maybe I'm wrong. What I was saying is that she rage screamed at least twice, but I think more. Once for sure at Bruce. Once at the aggressive drunks who were following her after she left the bar. We've seen Hulk do that, and it's explained that Bruce isn't in control. The monster is. So the rage screaming / roaring makes sense. But in Jen's case, she tells us that she's 100% in control. And it's not normal for anyone to roar at strangers or even there cousin, especially if you are bragging about how much control you have over your emotions.

And yeah, I have 2 sisters who angered me many times and I never once roared at them. So I just don't think that's normal behavior.

like I said. either she is learning to control her transformation is too quickly. or she is not learning quickly enough.(your example is literally her just after she got the hulk, before Bruce explained how and what triggers it)

Pick.

ONE.

as for yelling at each other - they both roar and they both shout, because roaring is Hulk equivalent of GAH! in this particular context and again.. I do not believe you have never yelled at your sisters with them yelling back, not in a healthy open sibling relationship.

[Ragedaug]

This is such a stupid take on atleast the bar scene.

Jen isn't able to control her anger because after she's, in a car crash, starts to transform, blacks out, wakes up in a weird place with no idea what's going on or the state of Bruce, and then is followed and harassed after she tells a group of guys to leave her alone.

Like you really think that having self control means that no matter what happens she should always have her anger 100% in check even when in a really fucked up and confusing scenario?

I think saying you have the bestest self control, like when she shames Bruce for thinking he was anywhere near her level of control. Then roars at people, showing a complete lack of self control. I just have never seen anyone in real life on their worst day turn around and hulk-roar at someone. And I've known some folks with a lot of anger problems. So again, just saying it's either bad writing, or the writers are trying to tell us that Jen is completely unaware of her anger management issues.

- - - Updated - - -

like I said. either she is learning to control her transformation is too quickly. or she is not learning quickly enough.(your example is literally her just after she got the hulk, before Bruce explained how and what triggers it)

Pick.

ONE.

as for yelling at each other - they both roar and they both shout, because roaring is Hulk equivalent of GAH! in this particular context and again.. I do not believe you have never yelled at your sisters with them yelling back, not in a healthy open sibling relationship.

She says she is 100% completely in control on She-Hulk form, that it's 100% her human mind. So what you are saying contradicts what Jen explained in the show.

[Endus]

I'm guessing this question is directed at me, though I didn't say she continuously yelled, so maybe I'm wrong. What I was saying is that she rage screamed at least twice, but I think more. Once for sure at Bruce. Once at the aggressive drunks who were following her after she left the bar. We've seen Hulk do that, and it's explained that Bruce isn't in control. The monster is. So the rage screaming / roaring makes sense. But in Jen's case, she tells us that she's 100% in control. And it's not normal for anyone to roar at strangers or even there cousin, especially if you are bragging about how much control you have over your emotions.

And yeah, I have 2 sisters who angered me many times and I never once roared at them. So I just don't think that's normal behavior.

The one roar I remember her using at Bruce was not a loss of control in any respect whatsoever, it was just cousins wrassling. I've walked around the room with three of my young cousins literally hanging off me, trying to wrestle me to the ground, all three of them yelling their fool heads off. There was no anger from any of us in that situation.

This is why these arguments don't hold up; you folks keep making arguments that something's exceptional or meaningful, and the rest of us are just like "that? That's it? That's what you find weird?" It isn't. It's pretty darned normal behaviour. I've roared at family members while playing football or the like, right before I tackled them. Because it was funny. Not because I was angry. And in the scene with Bruce, they're both cheesed at each other and enjoying working it out sparring because they know they aren't going to hurt each other; they're Hulks. Bruce already knocked her off a cliff knowing it wouldn't hurt her, and she just took it as a dick move, not an attack.

You keep inserting "rage" into Jen's emotional framework, and there isn't really any justification for that. Her first transformation, she's got a head injury and the Hulk tranformation hitting her for the first time, so she's confused and scared and runs off. There's no rage there, and she doesn't hurt anyone in the process. The second time she changes, she's angry, but she's literally just about to angrily tell those guys to fuck off. That's it. Really moderate levels of anger. And sure, the Hulk shift isn't expected, because she still doesn't know what's going on, but that doesn't make her go into rage-monster mode, because Jen doesn't do that. At least, not in this arc/story, and what happens later has other reasons that complicate things.

Plus, we overlook this shit with male characters all the time. Nobody had issues with Keanu Reeves screaming and firing his gun into the air at the end of Point Break. Or the traditional yelling that like 50% of action heroes all engage in at some point as they charge a dude. But when it's Jennifer Walters, it's a "loss of control" and so on. It's an obvious double standard.

- - - Updated - - -

I think saying you have the bestest self control, like when she shames Bruce for thinking he was anywhere near her level of control.

Literally did not happen. I know you guys hate that scene, but there is no "shaming", she doesn't claim to be "the best at self-control", she's just angrily tired of being talked down to and snaps back. That's it.

[Witchblade77]

I think saying you have the bestest self control, like when she shames Bruce for thinking he was anywhere near her level of control. Then roars at people, showing a complete lack of self control. I just have never seen anyone in real life on their worst day turn around and hulk-roar at someone. And I've known some folks with a lot of anger problems. So again, just saying it's either bad writing, or the writers are trying to tell us that Jen is completely unaware of her anger management issues.

- - - Updated - - -



She says she is 100% completely in control on She-Hulk form, that it's 100% her human mind. So what you are saying contradicts what Jen explained in the show.

no, what you are saying shows breathtaking misunderstanding of language and context.

she is in control 100% now that she has learned. she doesn't say "I've always been 100% in control of the hulk" (and yes I went back to Disney plus to double check). First time she Roars at Bruce is just after he locked her up in a room with razorblade wall to test just how much fear it takes for her to transform. I don't see how she was unreasonable there. and the she literally says that "first time it was so intense, she could barely remember what was happening, but now.. its like it settled in".

and that is the point and which she STILL doesn't have full control of the transformation and her training is yet to begin and she acknowledges that she doesn't know how to turn back into Jen... YET. She and I quote listens to him describe what its like and asks him "teach me how to Hulk, please"

at which point they do the montage (which takes multiple days btw, since there are clothing changes) with all the various things from yoga "I thought it was about getting my butt tight as hell" to general practice to Bruce waking her up with a foghorn to see if he can trigger uncontrolled transformation (he can) to getting drunk. and during all of that we can see just how quickly she gets a hold of herself even when she has her outbursts of anger... which is kinda the point of being able to control it. and not once does she ever say that I can find that she is 100% in control at all times. she says "I did your therapy, I can change back and forth now, I'm going home"

the only thing she also says is that she doesn't have "the other guy" its always just her, whether in hulk or human form. which is NOT at all what you are trying to imply. all it implies is that Hulk has split personality and she does not.

also she literally acknowledges decades worth of trauma he had to deal with, and how alone he is, how little he gets to see his family, etc. she KNOWS how hard it is for him, being a Hulk publicly. that is why she doesn't want it for herself.

She also says that she is a much better lawyer than she is a Hulk, directly acknowledging that he is far better at the Hulk thing than she is. but... yanno.

and then immediately after she gloats how she was right and Bruce was wrong and that she never needs to be a hulk, she is proven very. VERY wrong. but yanno.

[Dorothyjean]

I'm surprised it's above 5. Shows below 7 are usually riddled with problems.

So far the plot is very weak, the humour is so out of touch that it borderlines satire and the cgi is subpar.

So it's a Marvel soap opera featuring a lady that turns green sometimes. Who wants to watch that?

This alone would make it dip harshly. Bring in higher expectations because it is a marvel superhero series and all the political stuff and I wouldn't be surprised it reached a 4 in the long term.

Which might be exactly what it deserves. At least it's not as bad as whatever the fuck that netflix resident evil fiasco was but that's already done for and that's great.

I'm waiting til it's done to watch it but I'm going into it with no expectations cause I'm sure it'll either end on a cool note... or they'll ruin her character from the comic books to make lame jokes at the expense.

Ya, wife and I tried to try out the "teen drama" Resident Evil... ya-yeet.

Dear Hollywood, we're adults... hire real writers.

[Ragedaug]

The one roar I remember her using at Bruce was not a loss of control in any respect whatsoever, it was just cousins wrassling. I've walked around the room with three of my young cousins literally hanging off me, trying to wrestle me to the ground, all three of them yelling their fool heads off. There was no anger from any of us in that situation.

This is why these arguments don't hold up; you folks keep making arguments that something's exceptional or meaningful, and the rest of us are just like "that? That's it? That's what you find weird?" It isn't. It's pretty darned normal behaviour. I've roared at family members while playing football or the like, right before I tackled them. Because it was funny. Not because I was angry. And in the scene with Bruce, they're both cheesed at each other and enjoying working it out sparring because they know they aren't going to hurt each other; they're Hulks. Bruce already knocked her off a cliff knowing it wouldn't hurt her, and she just took it as a dick move, not an attack.

You keep inserting "rage" into Jen's emotional framework, and there isn't really any justification for that. Her first transformation, she's got a head injury and the Hulk tranformation hitting her for the first time, so she's confused and scared and runs off. There's no rage there, and she doesn't hurt anyone in the process. The second time she changes, she's angry, but she's literally just about to angrily tell those guys to fuck off. That's it. Really moderate levels of anger. And sure, the Hulk shift isn't expected, because she still doesn't know what's going on, but that doesn't make her go into rage-monster mode, because Jen doesn't do that. At least, not in this arc/story, and what happens later has other reasons that complicate things.

Plus, we overlook this shit with male characters all the time. Nobody had issues with Keanu Reeves screaming and firing his gun into the air at the end of Point Break. Or the traditional yelling that like 50% of action heroes all engage in at some point as they charge a dude. But when it's Jennifer Walters, it's a "loss of control" and so on. It's an obvious double standard.

Yelling a warcry as you run into battle is normal behavior. Yelling at the sky is a dramatic movie trope, as I don't recall ever seeing someone in real life do that. /shrug So if you wanted to call that out as overly dramatic, I wouldn't argue with you.

I had no problem when the men and the women roared their battle cry as they charged into battle in Wakanda during Infinity Wars. That's normal. Sports players do similar stuff. You are trying to psych yourself up into an high emotional state. So you have to acknowledge that when people do that, they are doing it intentionally typically to get themselves angry. I don't think you can compare that to what Jen did. She wasn't trying to get angry or emotionally worked up either time she did that.

Turning around and roaring at strangers after you left a bar is not normal. If you are a man, and I saw you do that, I would say that you completely lack self control, regardless of how you were being taunted. Jen roars at Bruce after she breaks his control room, then smashes his lab after tossing the giant door into the wall, then she turns to Bruce and roars at him. None of that portrays self control. If any of my cousins were in my house and did those things, I would have serious questions about their mental state. Seriously.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I think saying you have the bestest self control, like when she shames Bruce for thinking he was anywhere near her level of control. Then roars at people, showing a complete lack of self control. I just have never seen anyone in real life on their worst day turn around and hulk-roar at someone. And I've known some folks with a lot of anger problems. So again, just saying it's either bad writing, or the writers are trying to tell us that Jen is completely unaware of her anger management issues.

She never says she has the best self control, she says she has better self control then Bruce and that she controls her anger all the time, both of these things are 100% true, she never says she never loses her cool, she never says that she can deal with any scenario ever, she never even says that she's really great at keeping her anger in check, literally all she says is that she does it infinitely more then Bruce and that's a fact.

You problem is just something that never actually happens in the show,

[Ragedaug]

She never says she has the best self control, she says she has better self control then Bruce and that she controls her anger all the time, both of these things are 100% true, she never says she never loses her cool, she never says that she can deal with any scenario ever, she never even says that she's really great at keeping her anger in check, literally all she says is that she does it infinitely more then Bruce and that's a fact.

You problem is just something that never actually happens in the show,

Yes she did. She tells Bruce she's great at controlling her anger. She tells Bruce that she has to control her anger infinitely more than Bruce. Which seems like a nonsense thing to say considering what Bruce has been through. She mentions (tells us) that she controls her anger while getting cat called, mean while we see (showing us) that she roared at some dudes who were cat calling her.

She yells (or raises her voice) at Bruce telling him that she's an expert at controlling her anger, which is crazy. Like yelling, "I AM CALM!!!". Meanwhile Bruce sits there calmly and takes it. So the show (or just Jen) is telling us that Jen is better at controlling her anger, while showing us that Bruce is infinitely better at controlling his anger.

Raising your voice to someone and/or yelling at them is showing that you lost your temper. You yell at someone when you lose control of your anger. It's when you stop and bring your voice down that you are in control. Either the writers are bad and are writing conflicting dialog, or they are telling us that Jen is completely lacking in self awareness.

[Ivanstone]

Turning around and roaring at strangers after you left a bar is not normal. If you are a man, and I saw you do that, I would say that you completely lack self control, regardless of how you were being taunted. Jen roars at Bruce after she breaks his control room, then smashes his lab after tossing the giant door into the wall, then she turns to Bruce and roars at him. None of that portrays self control. If any of my cousins were in my house and did those things, I would have serious questions about their mental state. Seriously.

Turning around while gaining 30 cm of height and 200 kg of body mass after going through a period of disorientation in the presence of three people who have charitably sketchy behaviour is NOT normal behaviour. A growl (not banshee screaming) may or may not be warranted. In any event Bruce interrupted this scene because he could only see it from his point of view.

Getting locked into a solid steel closet sized space with numerous spinning saws by your cousin is also NOT normal behaviour. A growl (not banshee screaming) may or may not be warranted. Near death makes people testy.

Is it a lack of control? Its so far outside normal human experience that any other considerations are irrelevant.

At this point I'm going to need see some time stamps for this banshee screaming you mentioned earlier.

[Rocksteady 87]

Wait, hold up.

Do some of you mean that the character telling us this story might not be giving a 100% accurate portrayal of events, and is only voicing her own opinions and views of the situation? And that even though Bruce specifically tells her that she's not ready, she nevertheless ignores that advice and storms off anyway, proving in and of itself that she hasn't shown complete mastery of her anger (and other amplified emotions courtesy of being a Hulk)? And what's more, that this is just the start of her hero's journey and she still has a lot to learn about herself and her newfound abilities, including the aforementioned amped-up emotions? :O

No way, you guys! Episode 1 was clearly the end of the story. For reals.