Blizzard finally understood the value of casual players having more access to gear.

[Kalisandra]

For feral druid is was amazing, cause more crits means more shit to do, which gives faster rotation fuss more dmg etc. Corruption was peak fun imo. Tanks could even do single target damage with that tentacle thing or whatever it was called...wow

And for Rets it was 'stack Mastery', which meant big numbers but no change whatsoever in gameplay. Booooring. Meanwhile Warriors got to stack the big void AoE and do far bigger numbers and just watch things get deleted. That did not feel good as a Ret main running with mainly Warrior guildies.

[Lolites]

And for Rets it was 'stack Mastery', which meant big numbers but no change whatsoever in gameplay. Booooring. Meanwhile Warriors got to stack the big void AoE and do far bigger numbers and just watch things get deleted. That did not feel good as a Ret main running with mainly Warrior guildies.

for frost DK it was amazing, it was possible to stack haste/crit which made Icecap best (combined with froswhelp azerite trait), it was a lot of fun, and seems we will be able to do so in DF (not so much stats, but frostwhelp is in talents) so im cautiously optimistic

[Caerrona]

Well, that sort of depends. If the so called "dad" has played and been around wow for 15+ years, chances are he can probably reach pretty far in m+ with less playtime than others. This comes down to knowledge of the game and how to execute them. Some people clear everything quickly, others do it slower but clears it. And so on.

No idea what you are thinking, but let me tell you this; Just because someone becomes a dad, doesnt automatically mean they get bad at gaming. It probably means less time for it, yes, but not really bad. Especially not with a game like wow. I mean come on, its the same shit as its always been. Dont stand in shit, sometimes stand in shit, hit the correct buttons, kill the correct mob(s). I've literally explained 99% of pve for you.

This is the so called "casual logic".

Step 1 - blow balls at the game and pull less dps than the healer.

Step 2 - proudly proclaim "I have 17 kids and 47 jobs and an overweight wife".

Step 3 - blame the elitist hardcore mean people for holding you back.

Step 4 - you are now a casual.

[Gasparde]

I don't see how uncapped valor in particular has got anything to do with casuals.
If you're a casual who only plays like 2 hours per week, it doesn't matter if you can theoretically earn 1k or 10k valor per week - you'll probably only get 400 anyways.

Unless of course "casual" in this context means "plays 4h per day but doesn't do mythic raids".

[Lolites]

The skill required for an activity is absolutely a factor in whether or not something is casual.

i always though "Casual" means you just dont really care, you have no schedule, or anything, you log in if you have time and feel like it and do whatever you want, always seen it tied to attitude rather than content you do

my friend is like that, he logs in, do some wq, logs out, next day pugs part of hc raid, then dont log for few day, then plays 20h in 2 days then dont log in for a month

[crusadernero]

This is the so called "casual logic".

Step 1 - blow balls at the game and pull less dps than the healer.

Step 2 - proudly proclaim "I have 17 kids and 47 jobs and an overweight wife".

Step 3 - blame the elitist hardcore mean people for holding you back.

Step 4 - you are now a casual.

eh well I have friends that play wow and some of them play ALOT but sucks at pvp & pve, while others rarely play but are very good. Even those with family and job.Certain friends just log on early in a season, get KSM and is gone. While other friends stay subbed all year and have 4+ hours ingame almost everyday, but are nowhere near any KSM.

So - whos the casual? the one that are 4+ hours in the game everyday, almost all year or the one that is really good at the game but rarely logs on?

[Caerrona]

eh well I have friends that play wow and some of them play ALOT but sucks at pvp & pve, while others rarely play but are very good. Even those with family and job.Certain friends just log on early in a season, get KSM and is gone. While other friends stay subbed all year and have 4+ hours ingame almost everyday, but are nowhere near any KSM.

So - whos the casual? the one that are 4+ hours in the game everyday, almost all year or the one that is really good at the game but rarely logs on?

The answer is objectively the bolded part. Skill has no bearing on casual vs hardcore. It's only used by bad players as an excuse to why they are bad.

The attitude and time commitment of the worse player is infinitely more hardcore than the player that gets ksm in 2 weeks and bails for the season.

[crusadernero]

The answer is objectively the bolded part. Skill has no bearing on casual vs hardcore. It's only used by bad players as an excuse to why they are bad.

The attitude and time commitment of the worse player is infinitely more hardcore than the player that gets ksm in 2 weeks and bails for the season.

Yeah, sounds about right tbh.

[Nymrohd]

Everyone "whines" about gear. Raiders "whine" endlessly if they have to spend a minute outside the raid gearing up. M+ players "whined" endlessly that they also had to clear the raid to progress past 15s. PvPers will "whine" at any point in time when even a single item outside of PvP might be good for PvP. All these concerns are actually valid and not whining, especially given that there have been points in time when they did not have said issues and thus had more fun in the game.

As for what casual is, there are two widely disparate groups that are both bunched in the casual concept. First we have people who have limited time in the game and that is it. They might spend that time fishing or doing pet battles but they don't have any inherent constraints against doing a M+ with a PuG or with their social guild, joining a Heroic Flex raid if there is a spot open (or even trying to check a normal PuG). They just do not have the time to complete what the game has to offer especially when there are many tedius tasks. They probably will overlap with raid loggers a lot in their concerns. They are not particularly vocal though because as said, they are casuals; their investment in the game is low.


The other group sometimes called casual, which receives truly virulent hatred in this forum, is anything but casual. They are players who may spent far more time than most hardcore raiders but usually have an aversion to group content outside of matchmaking. I'd say in their majority they are people with social anxiety or people with erratic schedules (people who know they may be interrupted at a moment's notice), otherwise they are people who have just had multiple bad experiences with the social aspect of WoW (and might even be very social in other games). These people may sink crazy hours doing every grind and collection they can (and most of them are available to them outside the grouped instanced systems). Alternatively they may have issue with either the timer on M+ (ties to being interrupted often) or with the absence of small group raiding at the highest level (they only want to play with their small group of friends and want 10man raiding back). Their traditional concern is that their progression is poorly designed. Some make inane suggestions that feed strawmen against the entire group (e.g. everyone should have access to Mythic gear easily!; there should be no Mythic raiding; there should be no timers on M+). Others approach things with a compromise (there should be long term gear progression that lasts more than a couple of weeks into the patch; there should be a dungeon alternative to M+ without a timer; there should be challenging 10man raiding).

[Sinured]

never understood casuals wanting "best gear".
what you do with the gear? farm herbs faster?
getting geared was never a problem for "casuals" not even in classic.
or do you mean casuals = players who cant play the game because to dense.
newsflash, 99.99999 % are "casuals". and we get our gear just fine.

[Nathanyel]

All MMOs should learn from ffxiv
No this isn't a WOW BAD FFXIV GOOD post
[...]

Yeah it's funny, a few years ago many content creators railed against anything perceived as "casual-friendly" (LFR, badge/catchup gear) but by now they have aged a little, maybe got a kid, and also played some FFXIV, and suddenly they're like "I think WoW should offer more things to casual players".

[Amariw]

never understood casuals wanting "best gear".
what you do with the gear? farm herbs faster?
getting geared was never a problem for "casuals" not even in classic.
or do you mean casuals = players who cant play the game because to dense.
newsflash, 99.99999 % are "casuals". and we get our gear just fine.

I'll explain in case you're honestly trying to understand.

Wow is a game that tends to emphasize power progression. Many people don't have the time or willingness to engage in more difficult group content, but they still enjoy the game. They enjoy feeling more powerful just as you do, even if they don't logically "need" that power for anything they do. They still feel it, whether it be by an outdoor elite dying faster or a rare suddenly becoming more soloable. And that's fun for them, without harming us that do more challenging stuff.

- - - Updated - - -

Everyone "whines" about gear. Raiders "whine" endlessly if they have to spend a minute outside the raid gearing up. M+ players "whined" endlessly that they also had to clear the raid to progress past 15s. PvPers will "whine" at any point in time when even a single item outside of PvP might be good for PvP. All these concerns are actually valid and not whining, especially given that there have been points in time when they did not have said issues and thus had more fun in the game.

As for what casual is, there are two widely disparate groups that are both bunched in the casual concept. First we have people who have limited time in the game and that is it. They might spend that time fishing or doing pet battles but they don't have any inherent constraints against doing a M+ with a PuG or with their social guild, joining a Heroic Flex raid if there is a spot open (or even trying to check a normal PuG). They just do not have the time to complete what the game has to offer especially when there are many tedius tasks. They probably will overlap with raid loggers a lot in their concerns. They are not particularly vocal though because as said, they are casuals; their investment in the game is low.


The other group sometimes called casual, which receives truly virulent hatred in this forum, is anything but casual. They are players who may spent far more time than most hardcore raiders but usually have an aversion to group content outside of matchmaking. I'd say in their majority they are people with social anxiety or people with erratic schedules (people who know they may be interrupted at a moment's notice), otherwise they are people who have just had multiple bad experiences with the social aspect of WoW (and might even be very social in other games). These people may sink crazy hours doing every grind and collection they can (and most of them are available to them outside the grouped instanced systems). Alternatively they may have issue with either the timer on M+ (ties to being interrupted often) or with the absence of small group raiding at the highest level (they only want to play with their small group of friends and want 10man raiding back). Their traditional concern is that their progression is poorly designed. Some make inane suggestions that feed strawmen against the entire group (e.g. everyone should have access to Mythic gear easily!; there should be no Mythic raiding; there should be no timers on M+). Others approach things with a compromise (there should be long term gear progression that lasts more than a couple of weeks into the patch; there should be a dungeon alternative to M+ without a timer; there should be challenging 10man raiding).

Soz for quoting the entire post just wanted to highlight it since its a sensible, non confrontational assessment of many legitimate concerns and groups in wow, and you phrased it well.

[Osmeric]

Why would they compare themselves to mythic players an not normal or heroic ones?

I get gear in pvp is a stupid outdated concept but beyond that just focus on your content.

Are you suggesting they don't, or are you complaining that they do but they shouldn't?

- - - Updated - - -

This is the so called "casual logic".

Step 1 - blow balls at the game and pull less dps than the healer.

Step 2 - proudly proclaim "I have 17 kids and 47 jobs and an overweight wife".

Step 3 - blame the elitist hardcore mean people for holding you back.

Step 4 - you are now a casual.

Step 5 -- stop playing. In the distance, Ion is sobbing.

[Celement]

Are you suggesting they don't, or are you complaining that they do but they shouldn't?

- - - Updated - - -



Step 5 -- stop playing. In the distance, Ion is sobbing.

I'm saying they shouldn't. WoW isn't the kind of game where you can just ease ilv. It would break the game to the point you effectively have lfr and mythic.

I never get why people who enjoy ff just dont...you know go play ff.

[Osmeric]

I'm saying they shouldn't. WoW isn't the kind of game where you can just ease ilv. It would break the game to the point you effectively have lfr and mythic.

Ah, so you are just making noise and wasting everyone's time. People have opinions that you don't get any say over. Casuals don't have to justify their feelings to you.

In your defense, the game designers have had a hard time coming to terms with this also.

I never get why people who enjoy ff just dont...you know go play ff.

FF14 was ok, but it has some issues of its own. I found the end game was just not something that kept my interest.

[potis]

Well, that sort of depends. If the so called "dad" has played and been around wow for 15+ years, chances are he can probably reach pretty far in m+ with less playtime than others. This comes down to knowledge of the game and how to execute them. Some people clear everything quickly, others do it slower but clears it. And so on.

No idea what you are thinking, but let me tell you this; Just because someone becomes a dad, doesnt automatically mean they get bad at gaming. It probably means less time for it, yes, but not really bad. Especially not with a game like wow. I mean come on, its the same shit as its always been. Dont stand in shit, sometimes stand in shit, hit the correct buttons, kill the correct mob(s). I've literally explained 99% of pve for you.

Cause apparently some people dont get it.

This joke started appearing because the aging group of WoW is actually becoming dads and you have the same people that were always bad using it as an excuse now.

And as a byproduct the normal human beings that could always play the game properly are also becoming dads and use it as a joke, repeatedly in order to mock those that use it as an excuse, at least the normal human beings that can move out of fire dads i play with.

[Celement]

Ah, so you are just making noise and wasting everyone's time. People have opinions that you don't get any say over. Casuals don't have to justify their feelings to you.

In your defense, the game designers have had a hard time coming to terms with this also.



FF14 was ok, but it has some issues of its own. I found the end game was just not something that kept my interest.

Correct I'm just explaining why they will never have what they are asking for and any attempt at making it will end in failure.

Its telling that even when dailies gave out heroic raid gear it wasn't enough for them to notice.

I guess the annoyance comes from their insistence on not leaving. They can't stand that people want the status quo and insist a game of 15 plus years be remade for them and them alone.

[Osmeric]

Correct I'm just explaining why they will never have what they are asking for and any attempt at making it will end in failure.

Its telling that even when dailies gave out heroic raid gear it wasn't enough for them to notice.

I guess the annoyance comes from their insistence on not leaving. They can't stand that people want the status quo and insist a game of 15 plus years be remade for them and them alone.

Oh, they're leaving. The overwhelming majority of them have already left (90+% of people who have played WoW no longer do). You're going to be even more annoyed at the consequences of these departures. The negative word of mouth from all these departures is, I am quite sure, one of the reasons WoW is not getting many new players.

[Yriel]

I don't disagree that casuals having more options to play is good, ofc it's good, buuuuut.......your logic is horribly flawed.

Those things you listed as benefits? You could do them all at any point in wows history. You could do them in s3. You could do them in BFA.

And more powerful than what? An npc? Again, that hasn't changed. And you are not any more powerful than other players, as everyone has access to it.

Most underrated comment in this thread.

Not playing M+ isn't a "casual" issue. It's a skill issue.

It's always the same with you people.
"It's unpossible not to like M+, except when you are bad. That is the only reason, everyone remotely skilled must have fun playing M+!!!!"

[Celement]

Oh, they're leaving. The overwhelming majority of them have already left (90+% of people who have played WoW no longer do). You're going to be even more annoyed at the consequences of these departures. The negative word of mouth from all these departures is, I am quite sure, one of the reasons WoW is not getting many new players.

Good? I never get this mentality that I should desperately want people who fundamentally dislike the game to stay.