Blizzard finally understood the value of casual players having more access to gear.

[arkanon]

Raids have become so hard that people are just bowing out and focusing on more casual content like M+. That's why raid guilds have difficulties keeping people.

Unknown if Hazzyboy is aware of this or he will continue to make raids harder and harder and making even more people not want to engage with raiding. Maybe his ultimate goal is to make raiding available only to the 10%.

I do miss the days of flex (before being renamed Normal) when you could take a bunch of casual family/friend non-raiders and guide them through quite comfortably. That hasnt been the case for a long, long time, unless its actually a full carry.

[crusadernero]

That doesnt answer the question though - why NOW? This has been a problem for a VERY long time, why make this change now?

Well, rather late than never I suppose. That question can only Blizzard answer really, we can only speculate. A decent guess can be that SL was going down the shitter and cross faction feature would bump the game up a bit.

Also, last xpac was all about faction war so couldnt really be done then..

In any case, it had to be done.

[Revamp Man]

M+ is not casual content. You have to take the game pretty seriously to engage in any premade group content.

Also, every end of expansion patch gives away free gear, if casual gearing is there from the start then we can talk.

If all m+ is serious content then I'm assuming all players in Wrath were serious Uber players

[crusadernero]

I do miss the days of flex (before being renamed Normal) when you could take a bunch of casual family/friend non-raiders and guide them through quite comfortably. That hasnt been the case for a long, long time, unless its actually a full carry.

Yeah I do miss that mode too. Had lots of fun times back then with flex mode. Played with a huge range of players.

[arkanon]

Well, rather late than never I suppose. That question can only Blizzard answer really, we can only speculate. A decent guess can be that SL was going down the shitter and cross faction feature would bump the game up a bit.

Also, last xpac was all about faction war so couldnt really be done then..

In any case, it had to be done.

Actually, the end of BFA would have been the PERFECT chance to end the war - have the expansion based on faction war, then at the end, they realise what a waste of energy it all is since we always end up fighting together anyway, and a truce is formed.

[Cynical Asshole]

It was a pure horror show on alliance side. It was bad in every way. On horde side it was like playing a fresh new game.

As someone who regularly does M+ and has played both factions, I can tell you it's not all sunshine on Horde.

From my personal experience, Horde has more players and more groups going, but these extra players are SHIT. I haven't seen so many noobs and broken groups in my life on Alliance.

Meanwhile, Alliance has fewer groups but better players and a lot less failed groups.

Also, on Horde being a tank doesn't make you special, like on Alliance. An average rio scored tank on Horde is worth to a pug leader just as much as an average rio scored dps, making the effort of playing a pug tank for quick and easy queues, absolutely worthless on Horde.

When it comes to PVE. Horde vs. Alliance is all about quantity vs. quality. Yes, most of the mythic guilds are Horde, but the players who are not mythic raid material are a lot more likely to be shit on Horde, than they are on Alliance.

[arkanon]

Yeah I do miss that mode too. Had lots of fun times back then with flex mode. Played with a huge range of players.

Like i said though, the mode still exists, they just renamed it normal since they made normal mode flex as well, and didnt want flex and flex2, so we got heroic renamed mythic, normal renamed heroic, and *drumroll* flex renamed normal. Nothing has changed though, at that point, it was a bit later that they started ramping up the difficulty overall.

It confuses me when people talk about how they miss flex and it was a good difficulty and they enjoyed it, like its gone. Its not gone, its just called normal now. Whats changed is the difficulty of that content.

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As someone who regularly does M+ and has played both factions, I can tell you it's not all sunshine on Horde.

From my personal experience, Horde has more players and more groups going, but these extra players are SHIT. I haven't seen so many noobs and broken groups in my life on Alliance.

Meanwhile, Alliance has fewer groups but better players and a lot less failed groups.

Also, on Horde being a tank doesn't make you special, like on Alliance. An average rio scored tank on Horde is worth to a pug leader just as much as an average rio scored dps, making the effort of playing a pug tank for quick and easy queues, absolutely worthless on Horde.

When it comes to PVE. Horde vs. Alliance is all about quantity vs. quality. Yes, most of the mythic guilds are Horde, but the players who are not mythic raid material are a lot more likely to be shit on Horde, than they are on Alliance.

Why are "most" mythic raid guilds horde if the things you said are true? Why are they horde? What advantage could they possibly gain if the things you say are accurate?

[crusadernero]

Actually, the end of BFA would have been the PERFECT chance to end the war - have the expansion based on faction war, then at the end, they realise what a waste of energy it all is since we always end up fighting together anyway, and a truce is formed.

Sure, I could get on board with that. Blizzard thought otherwise. Maybe it was stubborness, maybe it was them being lazy. Maybe they just didnt think the time was right yet. It could literally be anything but Blizzard have gotten alot of things wrong last couple of years, this is probably one of them.

[Cynical Asshole]

Why are "most" mythic raid guilds horde if the things you said are true? Why are they horde? What advantage could they possibly gain if the things you say are accurate?

Cultural fads and sheeple following them. Then the cultural fad just snowballs.

[crusadernero]

As someone who regularly does M+ and has played both factions, I can tell you it's not all sunshine on Horde.

From my personal experience, Horde has more players and more groups going, but these extra players are SHIT. I haven't seen so many noobs and broken groups in my life on Alliance.

Meanwhile, Alliance has fewer groups but better players and a lot less failed groups.

Also, on Horde being a tank doesn't make you special, like on Alliance. An average rio scored tank on Horde is worth to a pug leader just as much as an average rio scored dps, making the effort of playing a pug tank for quick and easy queues, absolutely worthless on Horde.

When it comes to PVE. Horde vs. Alliance is all about quantity vs. quality. Yes, most of the mythic guilds are Horde, but the players who are not mythic raid material are a lot more likely to be shit on Horde, than they are on Alliance.

Well, my experience is total opposite of yours. On ally I would spend alot of time forming/getting into grps, often times they failed. On horde, I got instant grps and most of them went smooth.

But I get your points and it did serve some value on ally being fewer. One would add players that were good.

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Cultural fads and sheeple following them. Then the cultural fad just snowballs.

Bigger player pools = bigger chance of getting new recruits in. Simple as.

Oh, also racials etc has been better for a long time on horde. Since SO many focus on min/max, it is what it is.

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Like i said though, the mode still exists, they just renamed it normal since they made normal mode flex as well, and didnt want flex and flex2, so we got heroic renamed mythic, normal renamed heroic, and *drumroll* flex renamed normal. Nothing has changed though, at that point, it was a bit later that they started ramping up the difficulty overall.

It confuses me when people talk about how they miss flex and it was a good difficulty and they enjoyed it, like its gone. Its not gone, its just called normal now. Whats changed is the difficulty of that content.

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Well in this case im talking about the difficulty of the mode than anything else. No idea whatsoever why its become harder and harder over time.

[Lolites]

We got to the point when they had to admit they could not sustain instanced content for two factions and were forced to allow cross faction. Let's not pretend the game's population is healthy.

ehm... if the population was very low opening crossrealm would not help anything... it only helps if the population is lopsided...

[prwraith]

M+ is not casual content. You have to take the game pretty seriously to engage in any premade group content.

Also, every end of expansion patch gives away free gear, if casual gearing is there from the start then we can talk.

ehhhh 1-15 is casual content

16-18 paying attention

19+ not casual

[Lolites]

The question is, why now? Why make a change people have wanted "forever" now, if not because people are having major issues forming groups, due to dwindling player count? Im not saying the game is dying, im saying there is plenty of evidence that a LOT of players and raid groups have ended because maintaining a roster has become near impossible.

thing is if BOTH sides had that issue unlocking would not help at all... it only helps if one side have that problem and one does not...

[Lex Icon]

what post #73 said.

sucks that blizz are too dumb to see what they've done.

[schwank05]

M+ is not casual content. You have to take the game pretty seriously to engage in any premade group content.

Also, every end of expansion patch gives away free gear, if casual gearing is there from the start then we can talk.

I raid and do M+, but consider myself a Casual Player. I can play 3-4 hours a night 2-3 days a week, this is what makes me a Casual player. I cant play 12+ Hours a day like when I was in College.

[Cynical Asshole]

I raid and do M+, but consider myself a Casual Player. I can play 3-4 hours a night 2-3 days a week, this is what makes me a Casual player. I cant play 12+ Hours a day like when I was in College.

4 hrs every day, 3 days per week barely categorizes you as "casual".

Also, hardcores certainly don't play 12 hrs every day. You're only 2 days away from being a "hardcore".

[Lex Icon]

hours don't determine wether you're casual or not. effort does.

[schwank05]

Most underrated comment in this thread.



It's always the same with you people.
"It's unpossible not to like M+, except when you are bad. That is the only reason, everyone remotely skilled must have fun playing M+!!!!"

M+ is just fine, but I would rather have an option where we get Hard mode 5 mans with Bosses that actually Dropped gear and the Timer was Removed. I hate the Timer because I randomly have to go AFK sometimes I want to just do the dungeon and get good Loot after completing the dungeon without the time constraint.

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4 hrs every day, 3 days per week barely categorizes you as "casual".

Also, hardcores certainly don't play 12 hrs every day. You're only 2 days away from being a "hardcore".

I guess when I was in College and played WOW all day every day U considered myself a hardcore player, now I have a time allotment after my Wife and Kids are in bed to play video games. From 10PM-2AM and finding groups that raid in those time slots is tough.

[Echo of Soul]

I raid and do M+, but consider myself a Casual Player. I can play 3-4 hours a night 2-3 days a week, this is what makes me a Casual player. I cant play 12+ Hours a day like when I was in College.

Sounds like you're not playing the game casually at all, in fact you seem to be taking it extremely seriously.

[Polybius]

Literally don't care if you don't believe it.

I'm sorry you are garbage at the game and are hard stuck in +7s thinking it's those "damn hardcore elitists keeping me back".

Bad=/=casual
Good=/=hardcore

Improve your skill, manage your time and you can casually clear high keys/mythic raid.

This is the dumbest shit I’ve heard. Spoken like someone whose never managed a raid.