Last of Us [TV]

[Relapses]

Thanks for the responses.

I've been seeing a lot of online discourse around the potential second season focusing on the opportunity for them to "right the ship" and "fix" the problem Joel's demise brought with it. As much as I'd love to see the world burn, I think making a change like this would sour my mood towards the show altogether.

[Darththeo]

Thanks for the responses.

I've been seeing a lot of online discourse around the potential second season focusing on the opportunity for them to "right the ship" and "fix" the problem Joel's demise brought with it. As much as I'd love to see the world burn, I think making a change like this would sour my mood towards the show altogether.

There isn't really a problem with Joel dying. The larger issues were how it was handled. Abby just happens to be running from a horde of infected in an area she has no idea of runs into Tommy and Joel, the exact men she came to find. And they just happen to decide to help her announcing who they are to her. It just comes across as bad fanfic level writing as oppose to the quality of the first game.

If people think Joel's death will be significantly changed or even undone, they are mistaken. If Joel doesn't die, the story of TLoU2 doesn't happen. I have a lot of problems with Part 2, but feel if they change too much, that's just insulting me. Minor changes improve the story enough for me.

[Very Tired]

There isn't really a problem with Joel dying. The larger issues were how it was handled. Abby just happens to be running from a horde of infected in an area she has no idea of runs into Tommy and Joel, the exact men she came to find. And they just happen to decide to help her announcing who they are to her. It just comes across as bad fanfic level writing as oppose to the quality of the first game.

If people think Joel's death will be significantly changed or even undone, they are mistaken. If Joel doesn't die, the story of TLoU2 doesn't happen. I have a lot of problems with Part 2, but feel if they change too much, that's just insulting me. Minor changes improve the story enough for me.

Really the biggest problem of that whole encounter was Joel saves Abby's life and she repays that kindness by immediately jumping to torture and kill the guy. No amount of sad backstory or following the story from her perspective for a while was ever going to redeem a monster like that, no matter how hard the game tried.

Like I posted above, expanding on Abby's father would help, but besides that, I would probably just axe the entire detail of Joel saving her to begin with and have a different type of coincidental meeting.

[Witchblade77]

the easiest way to fix that whole setup IMO is to switch who saves whom. Tommy and Joel get overwhelmed (and they could possibly still make it out, though it should look like a really close call). Abby is the one that helps them which is why they go with her and at least tentatively trust her. she doesn't learn who they are because they just give up their names randomly. one of her group could recognize them or she could overhear them talking quietly and that is where her demeanor towards them changes. from people she rescued to people she came to kill in a first place, well Joel anyways. This both keeps Joel competent AND makes Abby more likable. IMO

[Relapses]

the easiest way to fix that whole setup IMO is to switch who saves whom. Tommy and Joel get overwhelmed (and they could possibly still make it out, though it should look like a really close call). Abby is the one that helps them which is why they go with her and at least tentatively trust her. she doesn't learn who they are because they just give up their names randomly. one of her group could recognize them or she could overhear them talking quietly and that is where her demeanor towards them changes. from people she rescued to people she came to kill in a first place, well Joel anyways. This both keeps Joel competent AND makes Abby more likable. IMO

True -- I can see this working out. Mazin's said repeatedly that he only changes when he feels like it improves the source material. I think a lot of the narrative in TLoU2 is solid, but there are a few weird character choices that _need_ to happen that feel rather off-putting. If he can improve the context of the meeting between Abby and Joel it's two birds with one stone.

SN: One of the funnier anecdotes I've read regarding TLoU2 is that all Joel had to do is say, "I'm Matt," and the entire game would have never happened.

[everydaygamer]

the easiest way to fix that whole setup IMO is to switch who saves whom. Tommy and Joel get overwhelmed (and they could possibly still make it out, though it should look like a really close call). Abby is the one that helps them which is why they go with her and at least tentatively trust her. she doesn't learn who they are because they just give up their names randomly. one of her group could recognize them or she could overhear them talking quietly and that is where her demeanor towards them changes. from people she rescued to people she came to kill in a first place, well Joel anyways. This both keeps Joel competent AND makes Abby more likable. IMO

This is silly there is nothing wrong with how events originally played out. They go with Abby because they literally have no other choice given the situation. They tell her their names because 1. they have no reason not to and 2. It's a desperate situation and they are trying to establish a base level of trust with a stranger they need to work with in order to survive.

The idea that in a life or death situation their number one concern would be maintaining anonymity despite it never being established as a thing they would do is just stupid and I wish people would stop bringing it up like it was Joel's main move.

- - - Updated - - -

There was quite a bit with Abby's story where I was like "really?" Her thinking never seems to go deeper than surface level on anything. Like you said, Joel and Tommy go out of their way to save her and she doesn't pause killing him for a second. A huge one for me was when she turns on the WLF for 2 people she knew for a day or so and at no point does it cross her mind "Hey that guy I just spent however long hunting down, guess I'm not any better". I actually found her turning to be waaay worse because she had been with the WLF for a long time and she turned on them in the blink of an eye. Joel spent a year with Ellie and had no real loyalty to the Fireflies whatsoever. But I'm supposed to be sympathetic to Abby? Yeah I don't think so. There were other things too I can't quite remember since it's been a while since I played the game. I just remember thinking how hard they failed with Abby's side. Maybe they'll do some big adjustments for the show but I doubt it. I just remembered she also banged Owen even though he was with bug eyed bitch and she was carrying their child.

1. they saved her during a desperate situation where literally every additional person could be the difference between life and death. I hardly consider that "going out of their way". Besides that, their saving her life would not instantly erase her desire for revenge and I'm not sure why people think it should.

2. She didn't intend to turn against the WLF she intentionally tried to keep what she was doing a secret and only went against the WLF after they attacked her first.

[Darththeo]

1. they saved her during a desperate situation where literally every additional person could be the difference between life and death. I hardly consider that "going out of their way". Besides that, their saving her life would not instantly erase her desire for revenge and I'm not sure why people think it should.

No one is saying Abby needed to give up on her need for revenge, but merely question it. At no point does she wonder if Joel had a reason for killing her father given he had no issue saving her. Instead she seems gleeful that the man she game to kill saved her and came with her willingly to his death. If she questioned her actions at any point in the story because of what Joel did, she instantly becomes a more likable character for a lot of people. But, how it is handled she comes off as someone who is psychotic.

2. She didn't intend to turn against the WLF she intentionally tried to keep what she was doing a secret and only went against the WLF after they attacked her first.

So, she intentionally turned against the WLF, but chose not to attempt to fight them. Just because she wasn't fighting them doesn't mean she didn't turn against the WLF. She went AWOL for her EX and stayed AWOL afterward with the intent to leave Seattle and join up with the reforming Fireflies.

Turn against =/= fight, her ceasing to help them is also turning against the WLF.

[Witchblade77]

This is silly there is nothing wrong with how events originally played out. They go with Abby because they literally have no other choice given the situation. They tell her their names because 1. they have no reason not to and 2. It's a desperate situation and they are trying to establish a base level of trust with a stranger they need to work with in order to survive.

The idea that in a life or death situation their number one concern would be maintaining anonymity despite it never being established as a thing they would do is just stupid and I wish people would stop bringing it up like it was Joel's main move.

- - - Updated - - -



1. they saved her during a desperate situation where literally every additional person could be the difference between life and death. I hardly consider that "going out of their way". Besides that, their saving her life would not instantly erase her desire for revenge and I'm not sure why people think it should.

2. She didn't intend to turn against the WLF she intentionally tried to keep what she was doing a secret and only went against the WLF after they attacked her first.

you are missing the forest for the trees

the issue with events unfolding as they did in the game is that they do not favor to any of the characters. and the whole anonymity thing is primarily to establish that Abby does NOT recognize Joel immediately. there are many ways to achieve that goal, but having Abby not even doubt her actions after these 2 man rescue here? makes her a far less sympathetic character than if she changes her mind after being the one to rescue them. IMO. and Joel is a very cautious man, we have established it throughout the narrative and as he begins to care again, he becomes MORE cautious and MORE ruthless, not less. at least if Abby is the one to rescue him and Tommy, he has a better reason to at least half trust her. this is a man who DROVE over a guy appearing to be in distress, because he knew how often this is used as a trap. because he himself set traps like that. he would at least suspect that Abby being in that situation, only to take him to her group just might... be fishy. he would still be cautious if she is the one to rescue them, but not to the same degree

but that's just my opinion. I still liked the characters and narrative overall, but that doesn't mean I liked them uncritically or that there is no way to make it better. case in point - Bill and Frank. show version is sooooo much better then the game, even if it came at a cost of losing Bill and Ellie's interactions (which wouldn't have been the same in the show anyways, as Bill in the show is someone who chose to grow, while Bill in games - did not)

[Very Tired]

you are missing the forest for the trees

the issue with events unfolding as they did in the game is that they do not favor to any of the characters. and the whole anonymity thing is primarily to establish that Abby does NOT recognize Joel immediately. there are many ways to achieve that goal, but having Abby not even doubt her actions after these 2 man rescue here? makes her a far less sympathetic character than if she changes her mind after being the one to rescue them. IMO. and Joel is a very cautious man, we have established it throughout the narrative and as he begins to care again, he becomes MORE cautious and MORE ruthless, not less. at least if Abby is the one to rescue him and Tommy, he has a better reason to at least half trust her. this is a man who DROVE over a guy appearing to be in distress, because he knew how often this is used as a trap. because he himself set traps like that. he would at least suspect that Abby being in that situation, only to take him to her group just might... be fishy. he would still be cautious if she is the one to rescue them, but not to the same degree

but that's just my opinion. I still liked the characters and narrative overall, but that doesn't mean I liked them uncritically or that there is no way to make it better. case in point - Bill and Frank. show version is sooooo much better then the game, even if it came at a cost of losing Bill and Ellie's interactions (which wouldn't have been the same in the show anyways, as Bill in the show is someone who chose to grow, while Bill in games - did not)

Actually... yeah. Abby saving Joel and Tommy instead of the other way around would actually fix a ton. And it's a small change that doesn't affect the larger story in place. Honestly hope that make that sort of change when season 2 comes around.

[everydaygamer]

you are missing the forest for the trees

the issue with events unfolding as they did in the game is that they do not favor to any of the characters. and the whole anonymity thing is primarily to establish that Abby does NOT recognize Joel immediately. there are many ways to achieve that goal, but having Abby not even doubt her actions after these 2 man rescue here? makes her a far less sympathetic character than if she changes her mind after being the one to rescue them. IMO. and Joel is a very cautious man, we have established it throughout the narrative and as he begins to care again, he becomes MORE cautious and MORE ruthless, not less. at least if Abby is the one to rescue him and Tommy, he has a better reason to at least half trust her. this is a man who DROVE over a guy appearing to be in distress, because he knew how often this is used as a trap. because he himself set traps like that. he would at least suspect that Abby being in that situation, only to take him to her group just might... be fishy. he would still be cautious if she is the one to rescue them, but not to the same degree

but that's just my opinion. I still liked the characters and narrative overall, but that doesn't mean I liked them uncritically or that there is no way to make it better. case in point - Bill and Frank. show version is sooooo much better then the game, even if it came at a cost of losing Bill and Ellie's interactions (which wouldn't have been the same in the show anyways, as Bill in the show is someone who chose to grow, while Bill in games - did not)

But Joel is cautious and suspicious, it's Tommy who is open the whole time and gives their names. But no matter how suspicious he is the current situation offers no opportunity for him to do anything about it. By the time they retreat to Abby's hideout, there is nothing he can do.

You also can't disregard Joel's character development. He is no longer the cold and ruthless survivalist he was in the first game and has spent the last few years as part of a community that helps strangers without automatically assuming the worst.

The fact that people expected Joel to remain some static character is just sad. Joel got soft over time that is simply a fact.

[Relapses]

Another excellent episode that is almost beat-for-beat identical to the game. I liked them fleshing out Ellie's mom and helping us understand her immunity. The Joel shoot-out reminded me a lot of the one-shot scene towards the end of Children of Men (another excellent take on the apocalypse). The set up for the second season is perfect and I'm excited to see how the events ultimately play out.

edit: Holy shit! The giraffe was real... wtf.

[Khain]

8/10 show, they did a really good job adapting the game to a tv show, probably the best videogame adaptation to this day. I think they could have shown a little more infected, they cut most if not all the gameplay parts where they show infected and sometimes I even forgot I was watching a zombie apocalypse show.

[Dracullus]

Another excellent episode that is almost beat-for-beat identical to the game. I liked them fleshing out Ellie's mom and helping us understand her immunity. The Joel shoot-out reminded me a lot of the one-shot scene towards the end of Children of Men (another excellent take on the apocalypse). The set up for the second season is perfect and I'm excited to see how the events ultimately play out.

edit: Holy shit! The giraffe was real... wtf.

Yeah, it was good adaptation, but also shows that beat-to-beat adaptations are kinda boring if you know original thing, especially since medium is so similar (game cutscenes to live action).

Overall last episode increase my rating from 7 to 8. And yeah, its more similar to Children of Men (which is 10/10 for me btw) than that zombie show. It's excellent story for video game, tv just have much better competition.

If they keep this quality, season 2 could be better than game, at least for me. My 2 problems with Part 2 story are: 1) it's too long 2) structure - show will likely focus on 2 main characters at same time.

[Relapses]

Yeah, it was good adaptation, but also shows that beat-to-beat adaptations are kinda boring if you know original thing, especially since medium is so similar (game cutscenes to live action).

Overall last episode increase my rating from 7 to 8. And yeah, its more similar to Children of Men (which is 10/10 for me btw) than that zombie show. It's excellent story for video game, tv just have much better competition.

If they keep this quality, season 2 could be better than game, at least for me. My 2 problems with Part 2 story are: 1) it's too long 2) structure - show will likely focus on 2 main characters at same time.

The more I think about it, the more I'm fairly certain they're going to split TLoU2's story into multiple seasons. Given the extremely positive reaction to this season I wouldn't be surprised if HBO already has a 3rd season greenlight option lined up. (The Leftovers got 3 seasons on HBO and its viewership was a fraction of TLoU's.)

[PACOX]

IT DID NOT MISS ONCE

Minor critique is that I think they could have used one more episode but that would have risked the pace of the the show, so I'm more than satisfied with what we got. Part 2 is going to be interesting because of the nuance and shift. Like the game it can only make you dismiss it or go all in for the ride but getting off at part 1 is fine. Looking forward to it.

[DarkAmbient]

So, pretty close to the game then, apart from the flashback that lasted a quarter of the episode. That felt like a convenient way to provide Ashley Johnson fan service while padding the running time as it didn't really add anything to the story. The giraffe scene was good. It was more obvious that Ellie didn't believe Joel; in the game she still seems a little unsure but the way she accepts Joel's word lacked the sense of disappointment and the 'Ok, If that's how we're gonna play it' attitude that Bella Ramsey gave it. Another successful episode and a very good adaptation overall, easily the best video game adaptation ever made IMO.

[Relapses]

Another successful episode and a very good adaptation overall, easily the best video game adaptation ever made IMO.

For me, it comes in just ahead of my previous favorite video game movie adaptation, Silent Hlll. And while that movie is deeply flawed (far more so than TLoU), it's also the belabored work of somebody who clearly loved the source material and did the most of it under undoubtedly overwhelming pressure from the film studio to recreate the success of Paul W. S. Anderson's Resident Evil.

[DarkAmbient]

For me, it comes in just ahead of my previous favorite video game movie adaptation, Silent Hlll. And while that movie is deeply flawed (far more so than TLoU), it's also the belabored work of somebody who clearly loved the source material and did the most of it under undoubtedly overwhelming pressure from the film studio to recreate the success of Paul W. S. Anderson's Resident Evil.

That's actually my 2nd favourite too. It captured the aesthetic and severe melancholy of the game extremely well. Using the original music helped. It wasn't all that scary but as an experience it's really enjoyable. I just wish Sean Bean had stuck with an English accent...

[MrLachyG]

So, pretty close to the game then, apart from the flashback that lasted a quarter of the episode. That felt like a convenient way to provide Ashley Johnson fan service while padding the running time as it didn't really add anything to the story. The giraffe scene was good. It was more obvious that Ellie didn't believe Joel; in the game she still seems a little unsure but the way she accepts Joel's word lacked the sense of disappointment and the 'Ok, If that's how we're gonna play it' attitude that Bella Ramsey gave it. Another successful episode and a very good adaptation overall, easily the best video game adaptation ever made IMO.

yeah Ashley Johnson giving birth to Ellie was a nice touch

[Relapses]

yeah Ashley Johnson giving birth to Ellie was a nice touch

The symbolism of her giving birth in a children's room under a tree was also a nice touch. It also alludes to the cordyceps infection "spreading roots" and even hearkens towards Joel's passage through the pediatric ward by juxtaposing his extreme violence with the innocent animal paintings on the corridor walls. The somber score overpowering washed out sound effects was probably my favorite part of the episode, even if the scene itself felt a bit rushed.