Is it time to remove Normal/Heroic dungeons? They are uselesss since M+

[lordjust]

How are NM dungeons any value to the current state of the game? They are straight up ignored once u ding max level same with Heroic.
The dungeon loot is legit ashamely bad low. Current NM gives ilvl 236 items, which is so low. (And chances of u getting 1 item in a run is also small)

Dungeon story telling is good indeed, but not with Normal/Heroic anymore.

What is the point of having so much different difficulties? Atleast adjust the ones u want to keep and make them into 1.

236 isn't that low. If you ding lvl60 you'll be something like ilvl 120 or so. You can buy a full set of 226 gear in ZM for anima but that isn't enough to get into heroic (need 230 to que) and isn't high enough to get into a m+ pug. Even for a +2 people want 270+ ilvl. How are people supposed to get to that ilvl without normal and heroic dungeons? M0 gives 262 and they hotfixed lfr to require 235. Also ques aren't that long. normal and heroic ques are like 10-15 minutes for dps and maybe 2-3 minutes for tank and healer.

In addition I had lots of normal and heroic dungeons on my alts that went horrible with half the group getting wiped to mechanics. House of plagues is the worst one because there are one-shot mechanics that will kill new players and most people I played with did like half the dps I did. Most people are bad and wouldn't survive in m+. Requirements for m+ pugs are already insane and if you force more players into the system that can't play and can't outgear the lower levels, it'll get worse with even more insane requirements.

[Gimlix]

236 isn't that low. If you ding lvl60 you'll be something like ilvl 120 or so. You can buy a full set of 226 gear in ZM for anima but that isn't enough to get into heroic (need 230 to que) and isn't high enough to get into a m+ pug. Even for a +2 people want 270+ ilvl. How are people supposed to get to that ilvl without normal and heroic dungeons? M0 gives 262 and they hotfixed lfr to require 235. Also ques aren't that long. normal and heroic ques are like 10-15 minutes for dps and maybe 2-3 minutes for tank and healer.

In addition I had lots of normal and heroic dungeons on my alts that went horrible with half the group getting wiped to mechanics. House of plagues is the worst one because there are one-shot mechanics that will kill new players and most people I played with did like half the dps I did. Most people are bad and wouldn't survive in m+. Requirements for m+ pugs are already insane and if you force more players into the system that can't play and can't outgear the lower levels, it'll get worse with even more insane requirements.

Why do NM when you can get to Zereth Mortis and get easy 252+ gear? This is the case currently, Blizzard legit thinks players will first do NM, then Heroic, then ZM, then M+ then raiding. While most people go straight for either M+ or raiding.

[Garymorilix]

Honestly, I would be fine with this.

I would like to see dungeons be a challenge again...and not a challenge of beating a timer. How about a thoughtful approach?

For this to work, Blizz would need to go back to its deep past and...wait for it...actually provide content! They could create 16 dungeons for BC and Wrath over a decade ago. The tools must be substantially more streamlined now than back then...they should be able to create 20+ dungeons for each expansion now.

Of course, the reason this won't happen isn't because it shouldn't happen...it's because it costs *much* less for Blizz to dribble out 8 dungeons and put a slider on it. And you have a host of fanbois who think the abuse they are getting for the past 4 or 5 expansions is paradise somehow.

Awh, yea, cuz TBC and WotLK dungeons were so high quality, how could we forget.

Please, enlighten us mere peasants, what is the toughtful approach?
What is your idea of challenging without a timer? Please, describe.

Cuz as long as your idea of timerless 'challenge' can be cheesed with waiting 10 minutes for BL between each trash pack to kill mobs one-by-one then your idea is worthless.
Ever thought about why the timer exists?

- - - Updated - - -

Why do NM when you can get to Zereth Mortis and get easy 252+ gear? This is the case currently, Blizzard legit thinks players will first do NM, then Heroic, then ZM, then M+ then raiding. While most people go straight for either M+ or raiding.

Incorrect.

Most people that play WoW play the dungeon finder version of instances.
Your perspective is skewed because you are not part of the ultra casual playerbase, which is the largest part of wow players.

[Tiwack]

They're only useless in-so-far players have found faster ways to level / rewards and bonus goodie bag aren't worth the time / no valor to be had.

Most players leveling alt armies do so via phasing rare farming over time below lvl50 and do all the bonus objectives past 50 with a bit of questing and barely any dungeons completed overall..

Blizz could do a lot more cross-polination inbetween the leveling and endgame-content/gamemodes and just spread the love in general instead of whole-assing M+ front and center the way that they are.

[Soikona]

Normal is fine, for leveling.

Heroic is useless, yes. Axe it.

I would argue Mythic 0 is also pointless.

Normal for leveling and Mythic + for endgame is all that is required.

The key you can get from a Mythic 0 an npc in the capital city might as well give you instead.

I enjoy M0 on the fist week or two of an expansion. No pressure, just doing a world tour getting gear. Very relaxing time before raiding

[enigma77]

I enjoy M0 on the fist week or two of an expansion. No pressure, just doing a world tour getting gear. Very relaxing time before raiding

I know but that's exactly the point. You do it for one or two weeks and then never again.

[Gimlix]

I remember doing my weekly valor cap just to get the items i needed.
I had fun getting my resources, i got gear, i got achies and best part of all, the queue wasn't 1 hour long.

There is way too little reason to go back to dungeons once you hit a certain mark.

[Schintus]

No, but adding Mythic +0 to the "LFG tool" would be amazing

[Funkyjunky]

Why do NM when you can get to Zereth Mortis and get easy 252+ gear? This is the case currently, Blizzard legit thinks players will first do NM, then Heroic, then ZM, then M+ then raiding. While most people go straight for either M+ or raiding.

The difference between you and blizzard is that they have the actual stats. How big is your samplesize?

[Gimlix]

The difference between you and blizzard is that they have the actual stats. How big is your samplesize?

Because samplesize gives us more logic to why Blizzard does things? Like changing things that weren't broken.

[Arkura]

You are making silly arguements at the end of an expansion... gimme a break. In what world do you expect to increase the power of your character spamming normal dungeons at the end of an expansion? The fact that normal drops over ilvl 200 gear is something that has never been done in the past. Normals are only for levelling hence why you get reduced to the appropriate level when entering one. And after you reach max level normal dungeons are not something you do anymoee unless its really early expansion and im talking days not longer.

[Gimlix]

You are making silly arguements at the end of an expansion... gimme a break. In what world do you expect to increase the power of your character spamming normal dungeons at the end of an expansion? The fact that normal drops over ilvl 200 gear is something that has never been done in the past. Normals are only for levelling hence why you get reduced to the appropriate level when entering one. And after you reach max level normal dungeons are not something you do anymoee unless its really early expansion and im talking days not longer.

No but i remember an era of WoW, where dungeons were played non stop from beginning to the end of an expansion because they had enough value to keep repeating them. There is almost no value to run a dungeon once u got a certain thing from it. Which is just bad game design. Valor and reward system would do great with this. Like in WOTLK/Cata days.

[Funkyjunky]

Because samplesize gives us more logic to why Blizzard does things? Like changing things that weren't broken.

You are basing your suggestion about something you think is "broken" based on what is assumable a lower amount of statistical knowledge. And yet ends with a "blizzard thinks".

Yes. A larger samplesize outweighs anecdotal evidence.

[Arkura]

No but i remember an era of WoW, where dungeons were played non stop from beginning to the end of an expansion because they had enough value to keep repeating them. There is almost no value to run a dungeon once u got a certain thing from it. Which is just bad game design. Valor and reward system would do great with this. Like in WOTLK/Cata days.

So you didnt raid in wotlk/cata days then, because out gearing valor gear did not take long at all. And you didnt get valor for running normal dungeons. And if you did that was the last patch of the expansion. Normal dungeons have ALWAYS been ment for levelling/questing purposes. It cannot be compared to any other dungeon or raid difficulty. And that.... has never been a problem... need valor? Do low keys and you get valor until your eyes start to bleed... i mean low keys right now is basically like a heroic dungeon in wotlk/cata... its the same thing but named differently...

[De Lupe]

How about no...

Fuck that timer shit.

It's one thing to have a fun little optional timer that gives you a bonus reward (hello CoS.) But to have it as part of the reason behind failing a dungeon altogether, na. Hell na.

Infinitely scaling difficulty =/= content. Put that timer on the 15+ nonsense and you might actually get more people in M+.

or remove gearing from m+ turn it back into a challenge mode with transmogs.

Amen to that.

[alexs]

or remove gearing from m+ turn it back into a challenge mode with transmogs.

[Lochton]

or remove gearing from m+ turn it back into a challenge mode with transmogs.

Best idea really.

Make a long seasonal changing selection of mounts, outfits, toys, pets, and teleports, but need CM rating and currency.

[Kithelle]

Yup...lets cut content because someone feels it isn't useful, sounds legit

I mostly PvP and out of endgame PvE I prefer raiding so I don't get a whole lot out of M+, so we may as well just cut that too!

[Antilurker77]

One of the two should stay.

But I do agree that having both feels redundant. It's nothing like the difference between normal and heroic raids.

[Wondercrab]

I'd rather they make them relevant again. Right now Timewalking is the only worthwhile casual dungeon content in the game. I've said it a thousand times, but WoD broke so many of the good endgame systems WoW had, and heroic dungeons were among them. They used to fill the niche of being the dungeons people could run to get justice points for catch up gear and old cosmetics. A perfect way of keeping dungeons relevant for alts, new/returning players, and casual collectors all expansion long. Now they're barely even worthwhile for gearing up since the current patch content typically rewards better gear anyway. A lot of the reward structures have had this problem since WoD where you're pigeonholed into doing specific activities for specific rewards rather than having more choice in the content you focus on to progress your character.