Cataclysm Classic goes against the original intended reason for Classic

[Aucald]

I kind of view WoW as having eras, in a fashion - although the demarcation of where a given era begins and ends can be a little fuzzy depending on context. Insofar as "Classic" is concerned, I think WotLK is the end of the Classic era of WoW, which is constituted by the original game (what was often referred to as Vanilla WoW), TBC, and then WotLK closing out. In that light, I think a Cata Classic is somewhat unnecessary at this point - although I wouldn't begrudge it a re-release either, I'd simply opt not to bother with it overly.

[bloodmoth13]

They extended the design philosophy of vanilla. Cata destroyed it.

how?
the talent trees?
I think cata was the final form and logical conclusion of the vanilla talent trees. The mop system was basically using the glyph system as a replacement for the talent system since that had by far the best choice options in WotLK and everything else was basically granted anyway.

[Lochton]

The original reason most ever asked for "classic/Vanilla" realms, was because we lost the old zones and, at least in the case of early Wrath and prior, less LFD/LFR implementation/ no LFR.

Unless they do something substantial, I really personally don't see the reason for Cata Classic, though I guess ultimately it can be a way for people to live/relive Cataclysm, if they so please, but let's be real, Cata was the start of the overall downfall.

I can't help but say I'd love a second chance to play MoP during the expansion, as there was a lot of fun during it, but I missed most of it.

How are you all hoping Blizzard treats Cata "in a classic way"?

But Cataclysm is a Classic expansion now? I knew it would come sooner or later as soon as project Classic was started.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

Cata is happening. You can look at every classic version that has released and see a list of haters that will come out and say it will never work and the one before it is all that is pure. Or that anything but modern retail is a waste of time. Yet here we are 2 in the books and 1 about to launch that all have been pretty successful. It isn't about the game with Blizzard its just how to print as much money WITH also putting in the least amount of money to make it happen. So yeah, you might beable to angle if they did a Classic+ more people would play it but then they also have to put more effort in. Now the day might come to where the low effort train starts to slow and they consider increasing effort to get the train rolling again but that isn't going to happen while the train is rolling at full speed still. WotLK obviously is going to have a lot of people playing it. So train is rolling pretty fast down hill. So they won't slam on the breaks after. It is going to plow into Cata. I would just suggest if you don't like Cata then just don't play it. If you do like Cata then go for it. It is really that simple because its coming.

[Akka]

...anyway, it isn't a controversial take to say that Blizzard has absolutely no desire to live develop two different MMOs. Classic has always been (and always will be) a way to repackage existing content. There are few things in this world that I am more certain of than the fact that Classic will never have its own content.

Err... Classic Season of Mastery ?

also yeah i understand people prefering some zones,but i am actualy very curious on how in the world you could prefer old tanaris to the current one if you dont mind

I can't specifically talk about Tanaris, 'cause I don't remember the post-Cata one, but the only zone I remember liking more post-Cata was Desolace.
Every single other that I can remember, I prefer the Classic version. It's a bit hard to explain, because it lies in global philosophical approach rather than minute differences, but it's basically the same reason I prefer Classic to retail. It's about tonal, thematic and design approaches being fundamentally different and giving a different kind of experience.

oh and how did westfall lose its low level charm?because of the scaling thing?thats the best thing they ever did for leveling lol

Westfall (and lots of other zones) lost their charm due to the aforementioned difference in design.
More "cinematic", more "dynamic", and ironically it tends to have the opposite effects, highlighting the static nature by being frozen in a dynamic loop (if what I say makes sense). Too much of a theme park, too many flypath, which breaks immersion and the suspension of disbelief that this could be a "real" place. Too obviously designed as "telling a story", rather than "being somewhere with things happening".

Also, level scaling is a fucking nonsensical abomination, and it's not the best but the single WORST thing they made for leveling. Level scaling basically removes any point of leveling to begin with.

[schwank05]

To be honest, i was in the same situation as you were when Cata was about to start. I had 6 max level characters and had really no need to have more max characters. And if you are in that situation again after Wrath, i can see that there is very little reason to level to end game, unless you wanted a goblin or Worgen ofcourse.

I can only say, that as they revamped the old world zones, they did also make it a new experience to level. It went fast, you got new abilities constantly and there seemed to be a focus on not wasting your time as much as in previous expansions.

But in the end, leveling is still leveling. That have not changed from Vanilla to current game, it is as it is.

The issue is I have not been able to play the game like I could back during Vanilla-WOTLK I was in High School and College so I could literally play 12+ hours a day. Since Cata I have been out of College and thus have limited play time in general. I can play at night after everyone else is asleep, so 9-10PM through 2am usually, so I would not level a character simply because i wanted another race I would do a paid race change as it is more efficient that way. And even if I did play through a class leveling via quests I still would not read quest text as I have never done to date, It is a means to an end to play at max level as dungeons and raids are all I care about.

I have always had the idea that once you have wasted 8-12hours used to be much longer in earlier expansions leveling one character through the "Quest Experience" or time sink most don't care about, you should then be able to boost all other characters to max level free of charge to play the game as you want. That way the questing is there for those that want it and for those of us that could care less about the story or anything like that can jump right into what we like to play.

[Dioporco]

The original reason most ever asked for "classic/Vanilla" realms, was because we lost the old zones and, at least in the case of early Wrath and prior, less LFD/LFR implementation/ no LFR.

Unless they do something substantial, I really personally don't see the reason for Cata Classic, though I guess ultimately it can be a way for people to live/relive Cataclysm, if they so please, but let's be real, Cata was the start of the overall downfall.

I can't help but say I'd love a second chance to play MoP during the expansion, as there was a lot of fun during it, but I missed most of it.

How are you all hoping Blizzard treats Cata "in a classic way"?

You never played Cata, please shut up.

[Recovery]

Err... Classic Season of Mastery ?

I can't specifically talk about Tanaris, 'cause I don't remember the post-Cata one, but the only zone I remember liking more post-Cata was Desolace.
Every single other that I can remember, I prefer the Classic version. It's a bit hard to explain, because it lies in global philosophical approach rather than minute differences, but it's basically the same reason I prefer Classic to retail. It's about tonal, thematic and design approaches being fundamentally different and giving a different kind of experience.

Westfall (and lots of other zones) lost their charm due to the aforementioned difference in design.
More "cinematic", more "dynamic", and ironically it tends to have the opposite effects, highlighting the static nature by being frozen in a dynamic loop (if what I say makes sense). Too much of a theme park, too many flypath, which breaks immersion and the suspension of disbelief that this could be a "real" place. Too obviously designed as "telling a story", rather than "being somewhere with things happening".

Also, level scaling is a fucking nonsensical abomination, and it's not the best but the single WORST thing they made for leveling. Level scaling basically removes any point of leveling to begin with.

oh lord.. another one of YOU.

For the millionth time... Wow is an MMO before RPG. If you want immersion, go play an elder scrolls, dark souls, or final fantasy game.

Wow has long left RPG roots behind. ITs an mmo designed around the end game, which most players love, casual or not. Get over it.

[NineSpine]

...yeah, uh, I'm not engaging with an argument that new Classic content would as simple as an asset flip. This argument is so far out of the realm of reality that it isn't worth addressing.

That's exactly the problem: Rather than providing any kind of reason for your analysis, you just keep declaring that these rules exist and everything that would violate them is "out of the realm of reality". Classic was outside the realm of reality, changes were outside the realm of reality, seasonal was outside the realm of reality, progression servers were outside the realm of reality. The list of things that people declare impossible because of their fantasy rules they made up is never-ending.

It is a FACT that if you are utilizing assets from other expansions, you don't need to develop new assets for the content. This is basic logic. Do you think that every time retail wow reuses an asset, they have someone remake that asset from scratch? Do you think every gnoll in Azeroth was modeled one by one? Do you think they rebuilt Kara from scratch for Legion?

If they wanted to add Kara as an endgame raid in Classic+, here is everything that is already done:

1. All of the models.
2. All of the music.
3. All of the sound effects.
4. All of the core encounter design.
5. All of the fundamental engineering.

Here is what they need to do:

1. Have a designer tune the content and rewards to level 60.
2. Coordinate where the content should exist in the structure of the game.

You seem to think that that last bit is where all the money gets spent, which is laughable. Private servers build shit like this all the time with existing assets, and that's just people fucking around in their free time. The assets are where the cost for content is. The design is a very, very, very small investment, and that is all that is left, and the reality is that there are a multitude of games with far smaller audiences than wow classic that get new content all the time, let alone new content that doesn't even require building new assets.

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oh lord.. another one of YOU.

For the millionth time... Wow is an MMO before RPG. If you want immersion, go play an elder scrolls, dark souls, or final fantasy game.

Wow has long left RPG roots behind. ITs an mmo designed around the end game, which most players love, casual or not. Get over it.

Cool. Some of us still prefer the old model. I don't know why that triggers you so much.

[Relapses]

Err... Classic Season of Mastery ?

SoM isn't Classic+ nor is it intended to be Classic+.

[Makaloff]

does it?
original reason to release classic was to get money, cata will be released to get money... seems the reason is still the same

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im not saying some zones are not worse (though i would struggle to find one that wasnt improved imo), but thousand needles?! it is "meh" now, but it was AWFUL before cata...

well we all have different tastes X3

[Sondrelk]

They extended the design philosophy of vanilla. Cata destroyed it.

WotLK destroyed it you mean. Cata was just marginal improvements on what WotLK had already done to WoW.

[Heavens Night]

oh lord.. another one of YOU.

For the millionth time... Wow is an MMO before RPG. If you want immersion, go play an elder scrolls, dark souls, or final fantasy game.

Wow has long left RPG roots behind. ITs an mmo designed around the end game, which most players love, casual or not. Get over it.

Oh no another one of "you".

Zoomers go play retail, maybe you should head back there. You're clearly in the wrong thread.

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WotLK destroyed it you mean. Cata was just marginal improvements on what WotLK had already done to WoW.

Hmm? Nope.

I mean sure if you want to think that go ahead. I mean cool ok. But the game lost millions of subs in Cata, and that wasn't because Cata made the game better.

[Sondrelk]

Oh no another one of "you".

Zoomers go play retail, maybe you should head back there. You're clearly in the wrong thread.

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Hmm? Nope.

I mean sure if you want to think that go ahead. I mean cool ok. But the game lost millions of subs in Cata, and that wasn't because Cata made the game better.

What exactly was it that Cata added that made it worse than WotLK? The old world you didn't interact with in WotLK? Or maybe it was carrying over all the gameplay decision from the previous expansion?

[Kallor]

Cata was when the game started going downhill. I think an insane of amount of people would return to WoW if they made vanilla classic plus, a true extention of the original phenomenon where we play an actual MMORPG. Cata classic? Can't see many people playing it.

[Sondrelk]

Cata was when the game started going downhill. I think an insane of amount of people would return to WoW if they made vanilla classic plus, a true extention of the original phenomenon where we play an actual MMORPG. Cata classic? Can't see many people playing it.

Just saying it was when the game started going downhill is meaningless though. There is no clear difference in how the game actually plays between WotLK and Cata like there is between TBC and WotLK for instance.

Saying Cata is where the game started losing subscribers is all well and true, but in practice this just means the hypothetical pool of returning players from that specific expansion is smaller.

Vanilla Classic was where the hidden gem with the most potential was. The very fact that we even have WotLK Classic proves by itself that there is a market for any of the non-current WoW expansions if you hit the nostalgia wave.


Besides, Dragonflight is already getting closer to what the game was like in older expansions, what with talent trees and more important professions.

[WXC46230]

I was always hoping that they implemented Classic Vanilla originally to go back to the roots of WoW. Let players re-experience what made the game the explosive hit that it "had" become. Then, when it was time to re-introduce Xpac's like Burning Crusade, WOTLK, Cata, MoP, WoD, etc. that they would have a "do-over" on some of the story / modifications to talent trees that really botched the game from what it originally was. Obviously they realize they screwed up with talent trees in general as they are now trying to re-introduce a true talent tree system with the Dragonflight xpac coming up. I also think they could have gone in a completely different direction with the storylines they had already introduced in those Xpacs to give a whole new experience for people if not only slightly deviate away from how they originally did it. Such as the "death" of Illidan, or how they portrayed him originally and had to retcon later in Legion. They could have fixed the narrative a bit to make us team up with him at the end of Burning Crusade and made Kael'thas the final boss battle and then lead straight into the Sunwell content afterwards still. But the story would just deviate a bit.

[tomten]

Not sure if this user is trolling or not, but if this is a genuine feeling then this is a perfect example. Players who really liked it and would actually give it a go if we get Cataclysm Classic.

Not trolling no, cataclysm is legit (alongside mop) my 2 favorite expansions. I really enjoyed dragon soul for multiple reasons. And I can't stop fantasising about how good classes played on a rotational and skill depth level in mop, it was just outstanding and something I doubt we'll ever see again, sadly.

So while my interest has been absolutely zero for classic so far, i checked vanilla classic out on launch, leveled to like 30ish and just abandon it and didn't even consider tbc.
And while I dont expect cata classic so be some reinventing the wheel for me, I would genuinely be interested to try and relive some of those moments, if even it probably won't feel nearly the same.

[casecase89]

The original reason most ever asked for "classic/Vanilla" realms, was because we lost the old zones and, at least in the case of early Wrath and prior, less LFD/LFR implementation/ no LFR.

Unless they do something substantial, I really personally don't see the reason for Cata Classic, though I guess ultimately it can be a way for people to live/relive Cataclysm, if they so please, but let's be real, Cata was the start of the overall downfall.

I can't help but say I'd love a second chance to play MoP during the expansion, as there was a lot of fun during it, but I missed most of it.

How are you all hoping Blizzard treats Cata "in a classic way"?

Ehhhhhh. It changed the quest zones. That is fine with me. I'm fine with that questing experience still being in retail. Fact is, Cata was 12 years ago, almost 13. By the time cata classic will release, it will most likely be late 2024 or 2025, which would make it 14/15 years ago. I loved Cata personally. I skipped most of classic wow and classic BC. They just didn't hit in the same way as when they were current. I'm personally not bothering with Wotlk classic due to my experience with the first 2 iterations with the rampant GDKP ordeal. Those happened, for certain, but not in the manner they did in the rerelease. I personally like the soft reset every raid tier. If you take a break, you don't have to come back and play the first tier and get preyed upon by GDKP groups because guilds don't bother running them. I liked the difficulty and tuning of the heroics. I liked firelands and loved dragon soul. I personally would love to play it. Because you don't, meh. Don't play it if it isn't in the spirit of what you consider classic. I'm sure there are many of us who would enjoy playing a 14/15yo version of wow again.

[bullseyed]

This is absolute nonsense. For one thing, Ghostcrawler was a systems designer and Ion was a dungeon/raid designer who was then promoted to game director. They've never even served the same functions on the broader team. You people act like Ghostcrawler was in charge of everything. He specifically described his role as not involving "level, story, quest, PvP or encounter design."

Cool. Specs, class abilities and class balance luckily don't fall under level, story, quest, PvP or encounter design.

Determining that all classes would have all the same tools, there would be no class or spec identity, etc were all decisions made by Greg Street. Getting rid of raid buffs, party buffs, dumbing down class mechanics, adding procs to everything and allowing hybrids to bring both healing and equivalent dps to groups were also his fault. As well as making professions have no advantage, so that one class or spec may not benefit unequally from it.

These are all things that the last 3 expansions have spent lots of time trying to fix.