are they fixing pvp for dragonflight?

[FelPlague]

this expansion pvp was terrible, the way gear was done and still is bad. not even mentioning the one-shot kills.

everyone should be able to get max gear, even if it takes you 6 months but should be achievable, i am guessing if you do any pvp, rated or not, 10 3 1 etc... should get a currency, low, that you can trade for gear.

whoever is very good will get the gear faster and who is a casual player eventually will get there but pvp should be about skills and not just gear, (GW2 have done a great way to do tis) as we know the current problem is te first one to get the gear will keep everyone else suppress since they gear is way lower rate and will never be able to upgrade.
example doing pvp with gear lvl 200 vs 220 is a huge disadvantage, in hp, damage and defense.

with this currency even a casual player in a long time will be able to get max gear and be able to compete with good players, (maybe several months after) nether less this fixes the gear issue.


if they will keep the same model for this expansion will be the same bad game again... and after 2 months ppl will cancel the subscription (they already have lost so many from the harrasment lawsuit, form the game been bad, form moving to ff14 and gw2, bringing those back will be hard.

they tried templates in legion, everyone hated it, so no thank you.

also i love how you say "whoever is good will get gear, and whoever is not will not, gear should be about skill, not gear!' what you just described it that... skill...

also mate you literally described honor and conquest which has existed for awhile now...

[Chakutron]

Doing a duel with a guardian druid vs enhancement shaman.. very balanced xD

You can see the combat log here:
i.imgur.com/RMjO5Qw.png

[Trend]

People supporting this current gearing system don't understand that a PvP environment should have a level playing field. Denying the gear advantage is as delusional as it gets. Also if you believe that gear doesn't matter, then why are you upset about it being normalised? A paradox.

Current PvP participation is also 3 dudes and a dog. PvP was dull in Legion because you could only kill someone with ridiculous dampening, not because PvP was "fair".

Getting rid of PvP rating requirements doesn't completely remove progressions, please stop exaggerating. They even left the upgrades so you still get to upgrade it exactly the same way, just now you will have to outplay someone rather than outgear them when it comes to PvP.

There is no downside to this change, any self respecting PvPer supports it.

You're arguing against a straw man. Nobody worth talking to is saying gear doesn't matter. In fact, it's much the opposite. People are saying gear matters so much they're using it as an excuse even when it doesn't explain the real cause of their losses.

In any case, people who play MMO's in general and WoW specifically tend to be attracted to rewards and especially those rewards that feel connected to player progression. Right now the rewards from doing well in rated PvP are prestige (titles, mounts, have a bigger rating number) and gear improvements. That there will still be a pull to participate after the removal of upgrades is clear from the fact that players continue to push above max gear ratings. However, they are removing one of the reasons to participate and I think a reasonable person would acknowledge that isn't likely to help participation.

RBG's, in particular, are in danger of losing the critical mass required to make the scene viable. Simply insisting that Legion participation wasn't impacted by the templating and that "there is no downside" to this change is unconvincing. I will be very surprised if participation isn't significantly lower than SL on a season over season basis.

[Bats]

You're arguing against a straw man. Nobody worth talking to is saying gear doesn't matter. In fact, it's much the opposite. People are saying gear matters so much they're using it as an excuse even when it doesn't explain the real cause of their losses.

In any case, people who play MMO's in general and WoW specifically tend to be attracted to rewards and especially those rewards that feel connected to player progression. Right now the rewards from doing well in rated PvP are prestige (titles, mounts, have a bigger rating number) and gear improvements. That there will still be a pull to participate after the removal of upgrades is clear from the fact that players continue to push above max gear ratings. However, they are removing one of the reasons to participate and I think a reasonable person would acknowledge that isn't likely to help participation.

RBG's, in particular, are in danger of losing the critical mass required to make the scene viable. Simply insisting that Legion participation wasn't impacted by the templating and that "there is no downside" to this change is unconvincing. I will be very surprised if participation isn't significantly lower than SL on a season over season basis.

You are correct about losing some people who like having the gear advantage but I personally don't think it's a significant number compared to the people we lost because of it. We will still have to get rating to get better PvE ilvl so technically only thing that is different is that games will be fairer and less unbalanced. I honestly don't see a downside to the health of PvP.

Of course we'll see then, nothing is certain. If the game remains as dynamic as now I don't see why people won't participate more than before.

I do wish they'd try RBG solo queue too. I tried them properly this expansion for the first time and I spent more time in LFG than playing. How come you believe that RBGs are in danger of losing critical mass? Maybe casual players who were doing them to get some gear will shift to just playing non-ranked PvP instead? That's the only thing I can think of.

[Celement]

they tried templates in legion, everyone hated it, so no thank you.

also i love how you say "whoever is good will get gear, and whoever is not will not, gear should be about skill, not gear!' what you just described it that... skill...

also mate you literally described honor and conquest which has existed for awhile now...

I feel templates failing was more due to how badly they picked the stats for most classes combined with how Ilv still made the difference just now you had no control over it.

Rather then having stats at all in pvp each players atk should do a flat percent of true dmg hp to the other player.

Make gear utterly irrelevant to pvp entirely.

[FelPlague]

I feel templates failing was more due to how badly they picked the stats for most classes combined with how Ilv still made the difference just now you had no control over it.

Rather then having stats at all in pvp each players atk should do a flat percent of true dmg hp to the other player.

Make gear utterly irrelevant to pvp entirely.

The ilvl increase was so pathetically low it was literally irrelevant. it was 1% per 10 total ilvl, so someone with 100 more ilvl only gained 10% more damage/health/healing.

[Celement]

The ilvl increase was so pathetically low it was literally irrelevant. it was 1% per 10 total ilvl, so someone with 100 more ilvl only gained 10% more damage/health/healing.

I don't think that is how it worked but I won't lie my memories are dim enough that I can't recall

[FelPlague]

I don't think that is how it worked but I won't lie my memories are dim enough that I can't recall

"You gain 0.1% more primary stats (Armor, Agi/Int/Str, Stam) for every point of average item level above this."
https://xpoff.com/threads/overview-o...mplates.69460/
https://youtu.be/KcWm628_FyE?t=35

hard to find stuff from way back when, but here is a video talking about it, sadly it was ONLY in legion so it kinda just died out, and pvp scaling since bfa has replaced it, and so there isnt even a wiki page for it.

[Trend]

You are correct about losing some people who like having the gear advantage

I think that's a dishonest portrayal. You go there because it's easier to "win" the argument, but it's a straw man.

I like the system now, and not for the reason you say. I do like how once you get to a reasonably high level (and thus a big chunk of the season), your gear is the same as everyone you are fighting with and against. But I also think it's fun early in the season, and with alts throughout the season, to grow in player power via upgrades. None of this has anything to do with wanting a gear advantage.

I honestly don't see a downside to the health of PvP.

Of course we'll see then, nothing is certain. If the game remains as dynamic as now I don't see why people won't participate more than before.

I've already explained that gains in player power is one of the fundamentals pillars to MMO's in general and WoW specifically. I can't help you to understand that any more than I already have.

I do wish they'd try RBG solo queue too.

I don't really understand. You're all concerned about PvP being fair and you want to play on jenky system-constructed teams that are going to get slaughtered by teams with decent comps and coordination?

How come you believe that RBGs are in danger of losing critical mass?

RBG matches require 3.33 to 5.00 more participants than arenas, so problems with participation will be evident earlier and more severely. If there are not enough people wanting to play who fit the right rating range and comp profile to be competitive, then you don't have a team to queue. More people playing more leads to an environment in which it is easy to get games from 0-2400+. When you have people stop even looking to play RBG's because it's too hard to get games, that problem cascades and that is the loss of critical mass. IMO, I believe any change that negatively affects participation will kill the RBG LFG scene. You'll still have the 0-1600 YOLO's but I don't think there will be any bridge to get between that and the higher brackets the organized teams will play in.

Obviously all speculation on my part, but I think any change has the potential for downside and this is a pretty big change. I hope I'm wrong; I hope participation improves.

[Bats]

...

The amount of forum posts, videos and PvP content creators that have gone into so much detail about why gear upgrades gated behind rating is fundamentally a flawed concept (hence the change in DF) has been overwhelming.

As for a very personal view like yours, I like a fair challenge when it comes to a PvP environment. BGs for example have been ruined for me this expansion, I've only queued to grind the ridiculous honor amount for upgrades. More often than not, the outcome of the BG is decided by the team with more gear. Having that maxed out gear myself also felt terrible. Two shotting people simply because I have a massive gear advantage is just not fun. It's like having a sword in a fist fight. Again, this is a very personal reasoning like yours.

Also, you will still grow in player power via gear progression, it just won't be locked behind rating. If you want a challenge to overcome, you can always create that for yourself artificially by equipping outdated gear.

I won't comment much on the unjustified attack on my wish for a solo RBG queue. Similar to solo shuffle it is a field that can be explored and the cons you've listed can be overcome. I tried RBGs and spent more time in LFG than playing, wasting the majority of my free time is certainly something I didn't enjoy.

How does the gear change affect RBG participation in particular? Unless you meant just PvP participation will go down in general because of the gearing changes. Which I'm positive won't happen but we won't see for sure until DF comes.

Anyway, at least we agree on one thing, we want participation to improve.

[heinz0r]

Because they did that in Legion and pvp participation completely hit rock bottom, burrowed through it and went subterranean.

This is the WoD/MoP style of gearing which is bis imo. You get a cap of conquest each week that is fairly easy to reach. When you buy the conquest belt for example, you instantly have the absolute best belt for pvp even if your rating is 350.

Rating will only let you upgrade the ilvl of the belt to use in PVE content.

Pvp in legion hit rock bottom because they did shit design and they even stated that they are not putting alot of effort into pvp. They even went as far as openly mocking pvpers on numerous occasions. No wonder that pvpers pretty much gave them the middle finger.

To this day, Blizzard probably never had any clue as to why the pvp "minigame" in wow was so successful, because whenever they tried to add some new things to world pvp, it utterly failed because those guys clearly have no idea what they are doing. They said so themselves a while ago, pvp was pretty much just a happy accident for them. That accident brought so much buzz and intrigue to wow and almost stole the show, as the numbers around cata showed pretty clearly in terms of participation in pvp/pve was evenly split in both areas with slightly more people entering into pvp instances compared to pve.

[Osmeric]

Pvp in legion hit rock bottom because they did shit design and they even stated that they are not putting alot of effort into pvp. They even went as far as openly mocking pvpers on numerous occasions. No wonder that pvpers pretty much gave them the middle finger.

To this day, Blizzard probably never had any clue as to why the pvp "minigame" in wow was so successful, because whenever they tried to add some new things to world pvp, it utterly failed because those guys clearly have no idea what they are doing. They said so themselves a while ago, pvp was pretty much just a happy accident for them. That accident brought so much buzz and intrigue to wow and almost stole the show, as the numbers around cata showed pretty clearly in terms of participation in pvp/pve was evenly split in both areas with slightly more people entering into pvp instances compared to pve.

WillE on Youtube has a video of what went wrong with WoW in Cataclysm and afterwards. He mocks the "I don't like X, therefore that's what caused the decline", but he does note that PvP competitors pulled a lot of people away from WoW since that time. The competitors allow "dive in and play" rather than having to laboriously build up gear to get to the "good part".

Having said that, the devs did some really brain dead stunts with PvP in the last few expansions. Making PvP depend on having a rating was always a terrible idea.

[mbit2]

Pvp in legion hit rock bottom because they did shit design and they even stated that they are not putting alot of effort into pvp. They even went as far as openly mocking pvpers on numerous occasions. No wonder that pvpers pretty much gave them the middle finger.

To this day, Blizzard probably never had any clue as to why the pvp "minigame" in wow was so successful, because whenever they tried to add some new things to world pvp, it utterly failed because those guys clearly have no idea what they are doing. They said so themselves a while ago, pvp was pretty much just a happy accident for them. That accident brought so much buzz and intrigue to wow and almost stole the show, as the numbers around cata showed pretty clearly in terms of participation in pvp/pve was evenly split in both areas with slightly more people entering into pvp instances compared to pve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLLWpT_nsTE

this was the nail in the coffin of hope

[pelos]

just remove the rate cap to upgrading the gear, let everyone eventually get max gear for pvp. at the end aren't we all paying for subscription? real pvps and streamers will get it the first month let the rest take 6 months to get max rate, at the end pvp should be about skills not who play more hours or who was the one to pvp 7 days straight to get max rate in 2v2 with meta classes and then just sit on that category forever.

[Omniclass]

just remove the rate cap to upgrading the gear, let everyone eventually get max gear for pvp. at the end aren't we all paying for subscription? real pvps and streamers will get it the first month let the rest take 6 months to get max rate, at the end pvp should be about skills not who play more hours or who was the one to pvp 7 days straight to get max rate in 2v2 with meta classes and then just sit on that category forever.

They are doing something even better, they are removing pvp gear rating altogether. Now, you just buy conq gear and its automatically as high as it can go in instanced pvp, the only thing rating does is allow you to upgrade it for outside of instanced pvp, world and pve scenarios. It is gonna be glorious.

[AlmightyGerkin]

just remove the rate cap to upgrading the gear, let everyone eventually get max gear for pvp. at the end aren't we all paying for subscription? real pvps and streamers will get it the first month let the rest take 6 months to get max rate, at the end pvp should be about skills not who play more hours or who was the one to pvp 7 days straight to get max rate in 2v2 with meta classes and then just sit on that category forever.

So you take the rewards from players who put time and effort and just let everyone have max gear for pvp? Not a great plan. For example I don't do anything but im entitled to max gear for pvp while player B does rbgs and arenas to acquire max gear. Put work and effort to get rewarded

[oplawlz]

So you take the rewards from players who put time and effort and just let everyone have max gear for pvp? Not a great plan. For example I don't do anything but im entitled to max gear for pvp while player B does rbgs and arenas to acquire max gear. Put work and effort to get rewarded

I mean did you even read what you wrote here? No one is taking anything away from anyone, it just takes longer to get for people who don't care for ranked pvp.
Some of the best times I had in wow was gearing up my alts through random battlegrounds. I hate arenas and have no interest in participating in meta bingo in rbgs.

- - - Updated - - -

Having said that, the devs did some really brain dead stunts with PvP in the last few expansions. Making PvP depend on having a rating was always a terrible idea.

Totally agree here. I have no problem with rated people getting it faster, but with garbage tier rewards I'm not even going to bother sitting through the 10+ min q to get into an unranked bg on my alts.

[AlmightyGerkin]

I mean did you even read what you wrote here? No one is taking anything away from anyone, it just takes longer to get for people who don't care for ranked pvp.
Some of the best times I had in wow was gearing up my alts through random battlegrounds. I hate arenas and have no interest in participating in meta bingo in rbgs.

If you're only doing the basic honor fine than its tied to that not 6months and or time frame opens up to max gear. Devaluing the gear thats obtained from putting in the effort to acquire it. Ask yourself if you can obtain max pvp gear from basically doing nothing whats the point of even doing rbgs when the outcome is still the same?

[oplawlz]

If you're only doing the basic honor fine than its tied to that not 6months and or time frame opens up to max gear. Devaluing the gear thats obtained from putting in the effort to acquire it. Ask yourself if you can obtain max pvp gear from basically doing nothing whats the point of even doing rbgs when the outcome is still the same?

The same thing it was before, titles mounts and cosmetics.

[AlmightyGerkin]

The same thing it was before, titles mounts and cosmetics.

Then why shouldn't max gear follow with it too?