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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The animal afterlife? I didn't ignore your evidence. I've shown you how your evidence is bogus because you used a screenshot from an article talking about soulshapes and that those weren't actual animals in the picture.
    I'm talking about the Emerald Dream quote about the animal, wild god and green dragonflight afterlife which was subverted into Ardenweald in the Shadowlands expansion.

    Do you think deserts fit the "lush verdant forests" concept of the Emerald Dream?
    I think dreams fit an Emerald Dream concept. I think lush, green forest could be just one zone at best. Did you know the aboriginals of Australia had something called the dreaming, which is the place all life started from? If that gets put in there, you might as well get an australian wilderness in there, which is pretty barren.

    No, it wasn't. That was the in-between and, again, we had hints of afterlives for the longest time in WoW.
    For the longest time? You had Revendreth, Ardenweald, Bastion and Maldraxxus hints?

    And now you're moving goalposts. First you say the Lich King is an actual lich "because they master frost magic", and now you move goalposts to saying "but they use necromancy too" when I point out the ludicrousness of your argument when I point out that your argument makes Jaina into a lich.
    Otherwise, there would be no difference between a Frost Mage and a Lich.

    You're taking words that are not synonym to each other and grouping them together. They may be related to each other, but they are not each other. Because you keep insisting that the Emerald Dream is an actual dream because of the word "dream" in its name.
    It is a dream. The green lush forest gives it the Emerald color.

    "According to Chris Metzen, the Emerald Dream was partially inspired by the Dreaming from The Sandman and the Green from comics involving the Swamp Thing, both published by DC Comics.[44]
    The Dream may also have been influenced by H. P. Lovecraft's Dreamlands. The Dreamlands is a vast, alternate dimension that can be entered through dreams, similar to astral projection or lucid dreaming. Experienced dreamers are among the most powerful inhabitants of the Dreamlands and may become its permanent residents after their physical deaths.
    Another similarity to the Emerald Dream is Tel'aran'rhiod, a parallel world in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, that is normally accessed through dreams. There are specially gifted people called "Dreamwalkers" that are able to access this reality at will."

    "The Emerald Dream (also known as the Emerald Dreaming,[1] the Dream of Creation,[2] the land of dreams,[3] or simply the Dream[4] or Dreaming[5])".

    Answer my question first, please.
    Both were names to describe the Shadowlands. After they came up with the expansion, they had to divide the two states and so the Veil got the previous names.

    Giving deserts to the Emerald Dream is changing it into something it's not. Again, the Emerald Dream has never been described as anything but "lush verdant forests".
    Giving an enchanted forest to the Shadowlands is changing it. That's the only description because that's the only thing you're aware of at this point in time. And, again, a desert is not something i advocate for in an Emerald Dream expansion but, rather, different dream states. For example, Thros is one place of the Dream (or the Nightmare, to be precise) that we haven't fully been to. We haven't been given much background for the Succubus and Incubus in Legion.

    Giving more to a concept while staying true to its original conception. And not, y'know, giving deserts to the Emerald Dream,
    Drop the desert thing. You're too hooked up on it. What would be "giving more to a concept while staying true to its original conception" mean for you?

    Except you never said "fully":
    Then, i'm saying fully. Because bits and pieces here and there doesn't equate to fully exploring a place.

    We keep going in circles because you refuse to accept the facts we knew next to nothing about the Shadowlands prior to the Shadowlands aside from small hints of afterlives, while we have a wealth of information about the Emerald Dream from countless in-game quests, stories and books.
    Yet, you fail to show what your keep claiming. So, i'll do that for you:



    About as much as the Shadowlands, which are described as nighmarish realms of decay. Yet, Maldraxxus is not the only place we got, did we?

    Let's pretend for a second that you're right. what does it matter how much we know about the Emerald Dream? They can't do anything about it? They can't add anything to it? They can't innovate or develop anything?

    No, they don't. No more than any random forest area "references" the Emerald Dream.
    Like Un'goro Crater, Sholazar Basin and the Vale of Eternal Blossoms?

    We're not talking about "in-game content". We're talking about information regarding the Emerald Dream. And in that case, yes, a portal room in the Emerald Dream is information about the Emerald Dream.
    What information does it provide you that you didn't know before?

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Caiphon View Post
    It's a bit unfortunate that Xavius and the Nightmare was already dealt with in a single raid bakc in Legion, but I'd support an Emerald Dream expansion. Though I loathed the alternate universe shenenigans I enjoyed seeing an alternate version of Outland in WoD, and a Dream expansion could basically feature alternate Azeroth without the AU business. Interacting with Elune (or at least her proxies) would also be exciting as she's a very prominent figure in Warcraft lore.
    The emerald dream is supposed to be a version of azeroth as it was intended to be, it would be cool to see it before the sundering. Although, the inhabitants of the dream won't be anything we recognize. Tangentially, a pre war of the ancients azeroth sounds neat.

  3. #143
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I'm talking about the Emerald Dream quote about the animal, wild god and green dragonflight afterlife which was subverted into Ardenweald in the Shadowlands expansion.
    So you're admitting you got no evidence, just your own opinion that the animal afterlife was transferred to Ardenweald?

    I think dreams fit an Emerald Dream concept.
    It doesn't, because the Emerald Dream is not an actual dream. Again, the Emerald Dream is not a literal dream. What, do you think it's also about literal emeralds?

    For the longest time? You had Revendreth, Ardenweald, Bastion and Maldraxxus hints?
    I never said we have hints of those specific places. I said we had hints of afterlives.

    Otherwise, there would be no difference between a Frost Mage and a Lich.
    By your logic, there is also no difference between the Lich King, who is not a lich, and an actual lich.

    It is a dream. The green lush forest gives it the Emerald color.
    It's not a dream.

    Both were names to describe the Shadowlands. After they came up with the expansion, they had to divide the two states and so the Veil got the previous names.
    Again: we knew next to nothing about the Shadowlands. At best, we had hints of afterlives.

    Giving an enchanted forest to the Shadowlands is changing it.
    But not in a way that goes against the concept of the Shadowlands. Because Ardenweald is an afterlife.

    Drop the desert thing. You're too hooked up on it. What would be "giving more to a concept while staying true to its original conception" mean for you?
    Keeping what has always been described as "lush verdant forests" for almost two decades to remain "lush verdant forests".

    Then, i'm saying fully. Because bits and pieces here and there doesn't equate to fully exploring a place.
    Then your original statement is upgraded from "wrong" to "meaningless". Because no one is claiming we have "fully explored the Emerald Dream". We're only saying that we explored it enough in books, stories and in-game quests and events to know what it looks like. Precisely because of the wealth of information we were given.

    About as much as the Shadowlands, which are described as nighmarish realms of decay. Yet, Maldraxxus is not the only place we got, did we?
    You're taking Azeroth's folklore about the Shadowlands as fact now?

    Let's pretend for a second that you're right. what does it matter how much we know about the Emerald Dream? They can't do anything about it? They can't add anything to it? They can't innovate or develop anything?
    Once again: there's a huge chasm of difference between "innovating" and "making it into something it's not". The Emerald Dream has been described a myriad of times as one way, and one way only.

    What information does it provide you that you didn't know before?
    It doesn't always need to provide new information. Confirming already existing information is just as valid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So you're admitting you got no evidence, just your own opinion that the animal afterlife was transferred to Ardenweald?
    Wild Gods and green Dragons don't go to the Emerald Dream when they die anymore, do they?

    It doesn't, because the Emerald Dream is not an actual dream. Again, the Emerald Dream is not a literal dream. What, do you think it's also about literal emeralds?
    You're having a hard time grasping what an adjective is. Emerald is the color of the place.

    I never said we have hints of those specific places. I said we had hints of afterlives.
    Yea, like what?
    Did these hints include what we got? If not, how did they dare add something that wasn't formerly mentioned in lore? It's against the lelenia rules.

    By your logic, there is also no difference between the Lich King, who is not a lich, and an actual lich.
    He's the last evolution phase i'd say. A mix between the necromancer and the lich.

    It's not a dream.
    Weird how they've chose that name, right? It's like Pandaria having nothing to do with Pandarens.

    Again: we knew next to nothing about the Shadowlands. At best, we had hints of afterlives.
    And that gives permission for the developers to do something about it, in your eyes?

    But not in a way that goes against the concept of the Shadowlands. Because Ardenweald is an afterlife.
    No shit. Anything that would be added to the Emerald Dream would be considered part of the dream. Crazy, right? It's almost like it's intended to be part of the expansion it was made for.

    Keeping what has always been described as "lush verdant forests" for almost two decades to remain "lush verdant forests".
    So, no development whatsoever. Got it. Your lack of creativity astounds me.

    Then your original statement is upgraded from "wrong" to "meaningless". Because no one is claiming we have "fully explored the Emerald Dream". We're only saying that we explored it enough in books, stories and in-game quests and events to know what it looks like. Precisely because of the wealth of information we were given.
    Enough? What is enough? If you haven't explored it fully, then there is still room to explore.

    You're taking Azeroth's folklore about the Shadowlands as fact now?
    Folklore? That's the Chronicles. Meant to summarize all we knew about these places until then. Not that much in the end, right? Even the WoWpedia page isn't that grand, and it contains every bit of information about that place.

    Once again: there's a huge chasm of difference between "innovating" and "making it into something it's not". The Emerald Dream has been described a myriad of times as one way, and one way only.
    So, there's no room for innovation because you can't imagine anything beyond what you've seen. I'd suggest you start opening up to new things. You're too fixated.

    It doesn't always need to provide new information. Confirming already existing information is just as valid.
    Did you need that confirmation? Then, it provided you with nothing but a pretty area to look at.

  5. #145
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    Since Blizzard ruined the execution of expanding the lore of the Shadowlands, I seriously doubt they could pull the same exact scenario with the Emerald Dream and have it work out. No more planar cosmic stuff. Blizzard clearly does not do it well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Relapses View Post
    Dude A: "lol well if you weren't such a Blizzard Shill™ you'd believe my source!"
    Dude B: ::posts the Webster Dictionary definition of the word 'objective' followed by a 700-word essay about how the WoW community is doomed::
    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPrincess View Post
    shut up idiot

  6. #146
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Wild Gods and green Dragons don't go to the Emerald Dream when they die anymore, do they?
    ... Did you forget that the only reason Ursoc was in Ardenweald was because he died in the Emerald Dream? And that Elune personally took Ysera's soul to Ardenweald?

    You're having a hard time grasping what an adjective is. Emerald is the color of the place.
    Ah. So you're dishonestly picking and choosing which words are literal and which ones are figure of speech?

    Yea, like what?
    I already answered that.

    He's the last evolution phase i'd say. A mix between the necromancer and the lich.
    You're literally making shit out of your ass up just so you don't lose an argument. Impressive. The Lich King is neither a necromancer or a lich.

    And that gives permission for the developers to do something about it, in your eyes?
    They don't need "permission" to change their own lore. But having next to no concrete information in the lore about the Shadowlands them gives them greater flexibility.

    No shit. Anything that would be added to the Emerald Dream would be considered part of the dream.
    One: it's not a dream. And two: no, it wouldn't. A desert zone would not fit the concept of the Emerald Dream, for example.

    So, no development whatsoever. Got it. Your lack of creativity astounds me.
    Wrong. You can develop a concept without changing it into something it's not.

    Enough? What is enough? If you haven't explored it fully, then there is still room to explore.
    Not when the concept of the entire dimension has been repeatedly reasserted as "lush green forests"

    So, there's no room for innovation because you can't imagine anything beyond what you've seen.
    I never said there's no room for innovation. I said there's no way to develop the Emerald Dream to be the basis of an entire expansion because the Dream lacks the diversity one would expect from an expansion and that is why it's better served as a content patch, at best.

    Did you need that confirmation? Then, it provided you with nothing but a pretty area to look at.
    Which is one of many confirmations of the original description of the Emerald Dream I mentioned before. Again, your mixing of "in-game content" with "lore" is fallacious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Koollan View Post
    Since Blizzard ruined the execution of expanding the lore of the Shadowlands, I seriously doubt they could pull the same exact scenario with the Emerald Dream and have it work out. No more planar cosmic stuff. Blizzard clearly does not do it well.
    It would be inevitable. Azeroth would run out of places to explore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    ... Did you forget that the only reason Ursoc was in Ardenweald was because he died in the Emerald Dream? And that Elune personally took Ysera's soul to Ardenweald?
    What about the other Wild Gods there? Did they all die in the dream? I think not. It's even said that Ardenweald is the afterlife for them.

    Ah. So you're dishonestly picking and choosing which words are literal and which ones are figure of speech?
    There's no figure of speech. The emerald (green) dream. Pretty straight forward. Pretty obvious.

    I already answered that.
    The Vrykul afterlife has nothing to do with the Shadowlands. The Naaru saving someone's soul can only hint at Bastion somehow.

    You're literally making shit out of your ass up just so you don't lose an argument. Impressive. The Lich King is neither a necromancer or a lich.
    He's a conglomeration of all that, possessing abilities in Frost, undeath and blood.

    They don't need "permission" to change their own lore. But having next to no concrete information in the lore about the Shadowlands them gives them greater flexibility.
    And a monotonous description doesn't? The god damn Broken Isles were literally Night elven ruins we've seen for ourselves in WC3, yet look at what they did in Legion.

    One: it's not a dream. And two: no, it wouldn't. A desert zone would not fit the concept of the Emerald Dream, for example.
    You're still hooked on the desert thing.
    What about haunted woods akin to Drustvar to portray Thros?

    Wrong. You can develop a concept without changing it into something it's not.
    Then tell me already what it can develop into. You're going around in circles. Spit it out.

    Not when the concept of the entire dimension has been repeatedly reasserted as "lush green forests"
    Forests? As in plural? Or forest, singular?

    I never said there's no room for innovation. I said there's no way to develop the Emerald Dream to be the basis of an entire expansion because the Dream lacks the diversity one would expect from an expansion and that is why it's better served as a content patch, at best.
    The Shadowlands is literally an equivalent dimension on the cosmic map, yet they can't develop the dream into an expansion because you can't see anything more than a green forest? Sure, buddy... whatever you say.

    Which is one of many confirmations of the original description of the Emerald Dream I mentioned before. Again, your mixing of "in-game content" with "lore" is fallacious.
    Do you think they'd introduce you with something new for a portal room? The innovation is reserved for expansions, not for small areas.

  8. #148
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    There's no figure of speech. The emerald (green) dream. Pretty straight forward. Pretty obvious.
    Calling something "emerald" because it's green is a figure of speech. You're using the figurative sense. And, again, you're still dishonestly cherry-picking which words you consider literally (dream) and which ones are not literal (emerald).

    The Vrykul afterlife has nothing to do with the Shadowlands. The Naaru saving someone's soul can only hint at Bastion somehow.
    So you admit that we did have hints of afterlives?

    And a monotonous description doesn't?
    When said "monotonous description" has been asserted and reasserted and reasserted again expansion after expansion, book after book? Yes, it doesn't give much flexibility. Which is why I maintain that the Emerald Dream, at best, can be used as a content patch's new zone like Argus, and not as the basis for an entire expansion's locale.

    The god damn Broken Isles were literally Night elven ruins we've seen for ourselves in WC3, yet look at what they did in Legion.
    And what did we know about the Broken Isles before Legion? Little to nothing. The place has remained away from the spotlight, shoved in the darkest corners of WoW lore until Legion.

    you're still hooked on the desert thing.
    What about haunted woods akin to Drustvar to portray Thros?
    Nope. Because the Emerald Dream is not about "haunted" stuff. It's just plain nature. Stop trying to say there's water in the Firelands. (That is an analogy)

    Then tell me already what it can develop into. You're going around in circles. Spit it out.
    I've already done so. Multiple times.

    The Shadowlands is literally an equivalent dimension on the cosmic map,
    "Literally"? Source on that, please?

    yet they can't develop the dream into an expansion because you can't see anything more than a green forest? Sure, buddy... whatever you say.
    It's not "because I can't see it". It's because it's been over and over, repeatedly described and shown as such over the span of nearly two decades as "lush green forests".

    Do you think they'd introduce you with something new for a portal room? The innovation is reserved for expansions, not for small areas.
    You complain that I'm "fixated on the desert", and yet you seem fixated on the portal room. Tit for tat? The Emerald Dreamway helps confirm how the Emerald Dream is and always has been lush green forests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  9. #149
    Dreadlord saintminya's Avatar
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    The Emerald Dream is basically a raw Azeroth; both a memory and dream of what could've or should've been. The Emerald Nightmare is the corrupt, haunted version of that dream. N'zoth's visions would pretty much be the polar opposite, which I only mention to emphasize the purity of the Emerald Dream.

    Also, emerald = green. It ain't a figure of speech, only another term for certain shades of green and green in general.

    [Edit] I too believe that the Dream has missed its chance to be the primary focus of an expansion, but there ultimately still is plenty more of raw Azeroth to explore.
    Last edited by saintminya; 2022-10-08 at 01:39 PM.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Calling something "emerald" because it's green is a figure of speech. You're using the figurative sense. And, again, you're still dishonestly cherry-picking which words you consider literally (dream) and which ones are not literal (emerald).
    Are you for real? Do you not know that a color is supposed to be a descriptive word of what comes after it? For example, the Ruby Sanctum. Ruby is the color, sanctum is the place. By the way, if you don't know what Emerald color is, here's an example:


    So you admit that we did have hints of afterlives?
    No. You wouldn't know it would hint at Bastion until you saw the short series: Afterlives. Besides, hell and heaven are pretty common as afterlives.

    When said "monotonous description" has been asserted and reasserted and reasserted again expansion after expansion, book after book? Yes, it doesn't give much flexibility. Which is why I maintain that the Emerald Dream, at best, can be used as a content patch's new zone like Argus, and not as the basis for an entire expansion's locale.
    It's an entire plane of existence. It cannot all be monotonous. It was even expanded in the Shadowlands expansion to be the domain of Elune. So, i imagine her domain would be more than just an Emerald forest.

    And what did we know about the Broken Isles before Legion? Little to nothing. The place has remained away from the spotlight, shoved in the darkest corners of WoW lore until Legion.
    Are you kidding me? You've literally been to that place in Warcraft 3, which was nothing more than Night elven ruins, some Naga and the Tomb of Sargeras. And yet, they still developed it beyond that. You're just being stubborn for no reason.

    Nope. Because the Emerald Dream is not about "haunted" stuff. It's just plain nature. Stop trying to say there's water in the Firelands. (That is an analogy)
    You're really something else... did you forget about the Emerald Nightmare?

    I've already done so. Multiple times.
    No development. That's what you've said. Because more green forest isn't exactly what i'd call expanding.

    "Literally"? Source on that, please?
    Not literally. You know what i mean. It's on the opposite side of that realm, which we got an entire expansion of. If they both appear to be the same size on the cosmic map, why does one deserve to get an entire expansion and the other doesn't?

    It's not "because I can't see it". It's because it's been over and over, repeatedly described and shown as such over the span of nearly two decades as "lush green forests".
    How many things have been repeatedly described the same for years only for Blizzard to totally retcon or add to it at the end of the day?

    You complain that I'm "fixated on the desert", and yet you seem fixated on the portal room. Tit for tat? The Emerald Dreamway helps confirm how the Emerald Dream is and always has been lush green forests.
    No one is contending that. And again, forests or forest?
    But, surely there's more to it than that. It's an entire Life plane.

  11. #151
    Patch at the very best. Wouldn't mind dragonriding on giant trees tbh, having a zone just like Elden Ring's Haligtree

  12. #152
    a final expansion zone like Argus or Zereth Mortis would be enough

    I don't think there is enough to do in the emerald dream AGAIN (we did go back there for some quest in BfA to boost the heart of azeroth with the green flight powers)
    and we would be bored of trees everywhere very fast

  13. #153
    Dreadlord saintminya's Avatar
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    Having dealt with Xavius already I don't believe the Dream could carry an entire expansion... it might not be able to even carry half. If there were a strong enough story to tell, then there would be ample, diverse zones to tell it through. It isn't all forests, but if it were it wouldn't be Grizzly Hills over and over again. The Dream encompasses all of Azeroth, so for every Ashenvale and Silverpine there'd be a Tanaris or Thousand Needles.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Pretty sure the Emerald Dream is on the side of the Life cosmic realm.
    Then you're pretty wrong.

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeenith View Post
    I don't think there is enough to do in the emerald dream AGAIN (we did go back there for some quest in BfA to boost the heart of azeroth with the green flight powers)
    and we would be bored of trees everywhere very fast
    If it was all the same. But, that wouldn't be the case with an entire expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by saintminya View Post
    Having dealt with Xavius already I don't believe the Dream could carry an entire expansion... it might not be able to even carry half. If there were a strong enough story to tell, then there would be ample, diverse zones to tell it through. It isn't all forests, but if it were it wouldn't be Grizzly Hills over and over again. The Dream encompasses all of Azeroth, so for every Ashenvale and Silverpine there'd be a Tanaris or Thousand Needles.
    Xavius isn't possibly the only threat out there to the Dream. Even the Primalists are trying to invade it in Dragonflight. And, the Drust would probably be there as well.

    It's the domain of Wild Gods, green Dragons, fairie creatures, Elune and An'she. I think they can come up with something more than just verdant forests.

    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    Then you're pretty wrong.
    Have you checked the cosmic chart lately?

  16. #156
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Are you for real?
    I know that the word "emerald" is used in the figurative sense to denote a color. Just like I know that the word "dream" is also used in the figurative sense and not talking about an actual dream. The problem here, like I said, is that you're cherry-picking which words should be taken literally and which ones should be taken figuratively.

    No. You wouldn't know it would hint at Bastion until you saw the short series: Afterlives.
    Which is irrelevant, because I never argued that those hints pointed specifically at Bastion, or Maldraxxus, or Revendreth, or the Maw, or Ardenweald. I said they hinted at afterlives, not any one in particular.

    It's an entire plane of existence. It cannot all be monotonous.
    And yet, by all accounts given to us since the beginning of the franchise, that's what it is.

    It was even expanded in the Shadowlands expansion to be the domain of Elune.
    Source?

    Are you kidding me? You've literally been to that place in Warcraft 3, which was nothing more than Night elven ruins, some Naga and the Tomb of Sargeras. And yet, they still developed it beyond that. You're just being stubborn for no reason.
    I'm not. I'm being logical. It doesn't matter that we've been there once during Warcraft 3. It still doesn't change my point that the Broken Isles has remained away from the spotlight, tucked in the deepest corners of the franchise's lore repository until it was brought back to the forefront for the Legion expansion.

    But if you still think I'm wrong, feel free to show me instances in which we either visited the Broken Isles, or read about it in books prior to the announcement of the Legion expansion as often as we had with the Emerald Dream,

    You're really something else... did you forget about the Emerald Nightmare?
    I didn't. The Emerald Nightmare is not a natural part of the Emerald Dream. It's an infection, a corruption caused by an old god.

    No development. That's what you've said. Because more green forest isn't exactly what i'd call expanding.
    Considering you seem to believe "expanding" means "turning into something it is not", I'm not surprised.

    Not literally.
    If it's not "literally", then don't use the word literally.

    You know what i mean. It's on the opposite side of that realm, which we got an entire expansion of.
    Which doesn't mean anything. The two being put on opposite sides of the cosmic map does not mean they're "the same size".

    If they both appear to be the same size on the cosmic map,
    They don't. The cosmic map is not made with the accurate depiction of those dimensions' sizes. I mean, if you look at it, "reality" is just Azeroth, with nothing beyond it, yet we know that is not true.

    How many things have been repeatedly described the same for years only for Blizzard to totally retcon or add to it at the end of the day?
    How about you tell me, since you're the one making that argument, that Blizzard can still expand things even after years and years of repeating a concept without expanding it?

    No one is contending that. And again, forests or forest?
    But, surely there's more to it than that. It's an entire Life plane.
    It's not a Life plane. The Life plane is separate.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2022-10-09 at 01:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    That's why things like the Drust and Thros, Incubus and other stuff would be refreshing.



    We were talking about animal afterlife.
    By the way, the inbetween used to be refered to as the Shadowlands.



    How do you know something is not? Was the Shadowlands not anything other than a shadowy realm of souls and everything they came up with is heresy?



    She's a Mage. She doesn't combine necromancy with her Frost magic.



    Also: kingdom, reign, royalty, monarchy, kingship, crown.



    Well. How many realms of shadows do you think there are?



    No, they wouldn't. They'd expand upon existing material.



    What's your idea of expanding then?



    *fully.
    That's a big difference.



    Because it has more potential than that. Look at the Shadowlands. Something that should have been nothing more than shadowy realms. Yet, they've managed to develop the concept into something else entirely.



    I know that. But, all of them kind of reference that place.



    Because that's not my idea of Emerald Dream content. Is a portal room content to you?



    I beg to differ. There just needs to be more than what is known.



    You really think that raid is the culmination of everything Emerald Dream and Nightmare? Come on... there could be much more than just a satyr in red.



    It's the opposite of Ardenweald.
    And, by your logic, the Shadowlands would have been all Undead and rot. But, that wasn't the case, was it?
    Undead has nothing to do with the afterlife?

  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I know that the word "emerald" is used in the figurative sense to denote a color. Just like I know that the word "dream" is also used in the figurative sense and not talking about an actual dream. The problem here, like I said, is that you're cherry-picking which words should be taken literally and which ones should be taken figuratively.
    Then, what do you think the word dream is meant to denote?

    Which is irrelevant, because I never argued that those hints pointed specifically at Bastion, or Maldraxxus, or Revendreth, or the Maw, or Ardenweald. I said they hinted at afterlives, not any one in particular.
    Heaven or hell. Did you assume the afterlives were so diverse before we got Shadowlands? That there's one for animals, one for warriors, one for sinners that isn't hell, one for creators, etc... etc... i bet you didn't.

    And yet, by all accounts given to us since the beginning of the franchise, that's what it is.
    Same way one would describe the Shadowlands before we got the full expansion. One plane cannot be so diverse and big while the other monotonous and small. You just haven't experienced it all.

    Source?


    I'm not. I'm being logical. It doesn't matter that we've been there once during Warcraft 3. It still doesn't change my point that the Broken Isles has remained away from the spotlight, tucked in the deepest corners of the franchise's lore repository until it was brought back to the forefront for the Legion expansion.

    But if you still think I'm wrong, feel free to show me instances in which we either visited the Broken Isles, or read about it in books prior to the announcement of the Legion expansion as often as we had with the Emerald Dream,
    It doesn't matter how many times you've been to a place. It was solidified both in imagery and in description as nothing but Night elven ruins. And that is, according to you, unchangeable.

    I didn't. The Emerald Nightmare is not a natural part of the Emerald Dream. It's an infection, a corruption caused by an old god.
    If the Nightmare is merely a corrupted state of the Emerald Dream, why would it have a pocket known as Thros?

    Considering you seem to believe "expanding" means "turning into something it is not", I'm not surprised.
    Anything that might develop the place is changing it in your eyes. There's no scenario that you'd accept.

    If it's not "literally", then don't use the word literally.
    Figure of speech.

    Which doesn't mean anything. The two being put on opposite sides of the cosmic map does not mean they're "the same size".
    It means that you got a Death plane as an expansion. Then, you might as well get a Life plane as an expansion.

    They don't. The cosmic map is not made with the accurate depiction of those dimensions' sizes. I mean, if you look at it, "reality" is just Azeroth, with nothing beyond it, yet we know that is not true.
    That's because Azeroth might hold the secrets to reality. We still don't know what Azeroth is for certain and why everyone wants to claim her.

    How about you tell me, since you're the one making that argument, that Blizzard can still expand things even after years and years of repeating a concept without expanding it?
    Yes. Take Draenor for example. We've been to that planet in TBC, yet they've managed to send us back there and use that planet again. Yeah, it's an alternate reality and it's undestroyed by fel energies, but there are some places that remained the same.

    The Cataclysm, a revamp of the old world. Even though we've experienced it time and time again, they've managed to alter those continents enough for us, the players, to experience the leveling process again.

    It's not a Life plane. The Life plane is separate.
    Source?

    Quote Originally Posted by HansOlo View Post
    Undead has nothing to do with the afterlife?
    It has. But, it's not all Maldraxxus, is it?
    Last edited by username993720; 2022-10-09 at 07:40 AM.

  19. #159
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Then, what do you think the word dream is meant to denote?
    A dimension that feels like a dream, and one of the forms of access is through hibernation. Not a literal dream.

    Heaven or hell. Did you assume the afterlives were so diverse before we got Shadowlands? That there's one for animals, one for warriors, one for sinners that isn't hell, one for creators, etc... etc... i bet you didn't.
    It doesn't matter if we didn't know specifics. The moment we had hints of afterlives, i.e., more than one, the number of different afterlives could be anywhere between two to infinite.

    Same way one would describe the Shadowlands before we got the full expansion. One plane cannot be so diverse and big while the other monotonous and small. You just haven't experienced it all.
    Yes, it can. Yes, one plane can be "diverse and big" while another is "monotonous and small". The Emerald Dream has been described to encompass only Azeroth, so yes, it is a teensy-tiny dimension in comparison to the others. And yes, it is "monotonous" (in your words) because the entire place is nothing but lush, green forests.

    That image is irrelevant. Because not only it never mentions the Emerald Dream, or even mentions how the Emerald Dream is now "the domain of Elune". To make matters worse, what you have is an opinion piece from Ta'lora, a broker from Cartel Ta.

    It doesn't matter how many times you've been to a place. It was solidified both in imagery and in description as nothing but Night elven ruins. And that is, according to you, unchangeable.
    It wasn't "solidified as nothing but elven ruins", but you're free to show me evidence of your claims if you believe I'm wrong.

    If the Nightmare is merely a corrupted state of the Emerald Dream, why would it have a pocket known as Thros?
    Thros is not part of the Emerald Nightmare. Thros is connected to the Nightmare, but is not a part of it.

    Anything that might develop the place is changing it in your eyes. There's no scenario that you'd accept.
    "Change" is one thing. "Change into something completely different" is another. If you don't see a difference between the two terms, that's on you. As far as the bolded part, that is a bold-faced dishonest lie considering I offered my idea on how to use the Emerald Dream more than once in this thread.

    Figure of speech.
    Mmhm. Next time, don't use "literally" if you don't mean "literally".

    It means that you got a Death plane as an expansion. Then, you might as well get a Life plane as an expansion.
    First: it doesn't. And second: the Emerald Dream is not "the plane of life".

    That's because Azeroth might hold the secrets to reality. We still don't know what Azeroth is for certain and why everyone wants to claim her.
    By that logic, we also don't know what secrets other planets may have. Remember that the Burning Legion went straight to the world of Argus for their world-soul first.

    Yes. Take Draenor for example. We've been to that planet in TBC, yet they've managed to send us back there and use that planet again. Yeah, it's an alternate reality and it's undestroyed by fel energies, but there are some places that remained the same.
    Yeah, that's not the same thing. Because Draenor from WoD is not the same place as Outland from TBC. They're different places, in different dimensions.

    The Cataclysm, a revamp of the old world. Even though we've experienced it time and time again, they've managed to alter those continents enough for us, the players, to experience the leveling process again.
    The Cataclysm also doesn't count because the revamp of the world was the result of Deathwing breaking the barriers between the plane of Earth and ravaging through Azeroth.

    Source?
    The very cosmic chart you love to use as reference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    A dimension that feels like a dream, and one of the forms of access is through hibernation. Not a literal dream.
    Can you back that up?

    It doesn't matter if we didn't know specifics. The moment we had hints of afterlives, i.e., more than one, the number of different afterlives could be anywhere between two to infinite.
    No. Hell and heaven did not point to different afterlives. It's the most generic and known cases of an afterlife. One for good people, one for bad people.

    Yes, it can. Yes, one plane can be "diverse and big" while another is "monotonous and small". The Emerald Dream has been described to encompass only Azeroth, so yes, it is a teensy-tiny dimension in comparison to the others. And yes, it is "monotonous" (in your words) because the entire place is nothing but lush, green forests.
    So, the plane of Death encompasses all these zones and characters, yet the plane of Life, which has a Pantheon of its own, doesn't amount to shit?

    That image is irrelevant. Because not only it never mentions the Emerald Dream, or even mentions how the Emerald Dream is now "the domain of Elune". To make matters worse, what you have is an opinion piece from Ta'lora, a broker from Cartel Ta.
    You don't really think the developers wrote all this to be taken lightly, do you?
    Elune is the Winter Queen's sister and part of the Pantheon of Life. The plane of Life is the Emerald Dream.

    It wasn't "solidified as nothing but elven ruins", but you're free to show me evidence of your claims if you believe I'm wrong.


    Thros is not part of the Emerald Nightmare. Thros is connected to the Nightmare, but is not a part of it.
    "Unbeknownst to them, they had reached the Emerald Nightmare. Their fallen warriors would find refuge in Thros, an offshoot of the Nightmare which they named differently as they were not aware of what the Nightmare was."

    "Change" is one thing. "Change into something completely different" is another. If you don't see a difference between the two terms, that's on you. As far as the bolded part, that is a bold-faced dishonest lie considering I offered my idea on how to use the Emerald Dream more than once in this thread.
    A patch of green forest?

    First: it doesn't. And second: the Emerald Dream is not "the plane of life".
    How is the plane of Life called, then? We know the plane of Death is the Shadowlands.

    By that logic, we also don't know what secrets other planets may have. Remember that the Burning Legion went straight to the world of Argus for their world-soul first.
    They were attracted to there because of the Eredar, a highly intelligent and magical race.

    Yeah, that's not the same thing. Because Draenor from WoD is not the same place as Outland from TBC. They're different places, in different dimensions.
    They're the same. Draenor is just undestroyed Outland. The alternate reality thing is just to justify an expansion around it.

    The Cataclysm also doesn't count because the revamp of the world was the result of Deathwing breaking the barriers between the plane of Earth and ravaging through Azeroth.
    Yet, they've managed to reimagine places you've been to before, haven't they?

    The very cosmic chart you love to use as reference.
    I see the Emerald Dream on the side of the Life plane while the Shadowlands are on the Death plane. If Shadowlands turned out to be the expression of the plane of Death, why isn't the Emerald Dream the expression of the plane of Life?
    Last edited by username993720; 2022-10-09 at 03:04 PM.

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