If the devs admit that PvP sucks with grinding for gear: why is PvE different?

[Thunderball]

That's the status quo. It doesn't prove why it's a better design.
Come with arguments proving it's a better design for PvE.

It's a cornerstone of monetization for a traditional MMO which WoW is. Design has nothing to do with it.

[epigramx]

Of course, the goal of it is to have fun.
You do have to realise that people have different opinions of what is fun.
And that more than one thing can be fun in the game.

I enjoy both pushing for a higher difficulty when geared, and also the process of building my character and getting gear.
Although i don't have the time available to push the really high keys. The time investment in getting the practise is simply too high.

The feeling of progression, and moving a new character from being able to do only low keys, to clearing +15's without issue is great.
It is something i can do with friends or solo, and i can pick content where i'm actually able to compete or contribute, while getting the gear.

On the other side, to me, PvP feels like the gear is a barrier to entry.
It's completely different worlds.
But even then, i think there should be some gear improvements to get. Some kind of progression.
Just not so much that it becomes nessecary to play at all.

I think we have survivorship bias and cognitive dissonance playing into this a lot. A gametype like PvE that has much fewer players now in a world of much more internet users: is most probably flawed but we keep hearing opinions from those who remain because they are the most still on forums and those who remain are often obviously in conflict in themselves because they can't seriously state "I would quit entirely if I didn't have more loot to get" and at the same time pretend they like the gameplay of PvE because their first statement obviously indicates that at least in the short-term they do not like playing at all but an addiction pushes them to.

The most useful thought about all this is that it's not unprofitable for Blizzard to go another route at all; a lot of us are very aware of grinding addictions and we actively avoid them; both consciously and unconsciously it's pretty obvious a lot of people have quit the game entirely to avoid mundane grinding that wastes their time without having any gameplay they like in it and that is a loss of subscribers not just in the short term but constant and all those countless of people will never return without change.

[Archy]

I find your post kinda funny because it perfectly supports my argument but you don't understand it.
I never told you once in this thread that blindly looking at Details! is a good comparison.
Yes: I totally agree: the competition is not just meters: it's overall good performance.

You mentioned in-guild comparisons. So how do you compare in-guild without looking at meters? Just a general feel? So gear is not important right?
As soon as you abandoned group vs group thinking all competition in PvE is pointless. You just did that.

[VinceVega]

nevermind /10char

[epigramx]

You mentioned in-guild comparisons. So how do you compare in-guild without looking at meters? Just a general feel? So gear is not important right?
As soon as you abandoned group vs group thinking all competition in PvE is pointless. You just did that.

The DEFAULT is for good guilds to judge you irrespective of D/HPS meters or not only on that. E.g. the regular healers' officer will routinely point out that overhealing sucks and they'll do something equivalent against the DPSes if they pad on useless targets.

Sure: you can still show off to your guild-mates based on DPS/HPS meters alone but that's mainly if you're in a simplistic Pathwerk fight and most officers and good players will raise an eyebrow if they suspect you take that seriously for more complex fights.