Rotation bots have killed off the end game in FF

[Necromantic]

So how is it harassment to kick someone for making a mistake when the group leader explicitly states they'll kick you for making a mistake?

Did the leader explicitly state this? I highly doubt it. As stated, that sounds like hyperbole.

[The Casualty]

The guy was talking about ACT and cheating. I remember using it in EQ2 but it was used as a damage parser. Has it evolved into a DBM type program in FFXIV?


--side note wtf is it with these streamers and that hi-pitch scream...

Its basically just that. The extra functionality you can get it to do is very barebones. You can get it to make a noise or to TTS with rudimentary custom triggers that read the combat log.

So if I wanted to, I could get it to read something like "Nael prepares Lunar Dynamo" and have it say "In" or "Get under" or ding or whatever I wanted it to say. It's not going to tell you where to stand, and you can just as easily read the cast bar and think "shit, I better move".

The one I do use though is ones for Provoke, Shirk, and Invulns so I get an audible notification that my cotank has done something rather than relying on a visual indicator, which depending on the size of the boss can be pretty hard to see.

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Did the leader explicitly state this? I highly doubt it. As stated, that sounds like hyperbole.

I may have said that most people won't kick for one mistake, but to be clear, they do tell you in those groups that you mess up and you are gone. Look at it this way, if you give every single person 2 mistakes, and they mess up even 3 minutes in each time, that clear now takes 48 extra minutes.

If you are going for a parse run, even a damage down may need to result in a wipe and restart. You have altered kill time and RDPS of other people.

[Necromantic]

I may have said that most people won't kick for one mistake, but to be clear, they do tell you in those groups that you mess up and you are gone. Look at it this way, if you give every single person 2 mistakes, and they mess up even 3 minutes in each time, that clear now takes 48 extra minutes.

If you are going for a parse run, even a damage down may need to result in a wipe and restart. You have altered kill time and RDPS of other people.

However it pans out, definitely nothing I'd waste my time with.

[Wrecktangle]

Go look up any statistic you want. You will find that competitive gamers are a super tiny minority and most people play casually.
So to say that competitiveness is an inherent trait in every gamer is flat out wrong.

Same goes for sports, though sports typically seem to attract the competitive types a lot more, especially team sports that are about winning vs losing.

I agree that using leisure was probably too broad of a definition.

Not sure if you saw the other piece of my response, but I largely agreed that it's hard to define that, and well outside my scope of expertise. I have no idea what statistics you're recommending I look up, but I would argue that competition is so ingrained in us as humans that by proxy it exists in gaming in some significant degree by default, but I'm absolutely open to reading/learning more if you have any recommendations to the contrary.

I mean just looking at the top views on twitch, they're largely competitive games. Looking at the most active games on steam, seems to be a similar trend. Like worst case scenario I can see is that people aren't competitive themselves, but enjoy watching competition, but then that digs into an even deeper philosophical question of why? Is it fear? Is it inadequacy? What about competition is interesting to consume, but not participate?

[Granyala]

What aspect of it do you enjoy to keep going?

None, which is why I retired from raiding after a ~9 years.
What I did enjoy was overcoming the challenge with people I like to play with.

Raiding in WoW was a lot more fun than in FF-XIV though, 25 people feels more like a raid but mostly because the underlying systems are just so much smoother.
Also, WoW featured less of the binary pass/fail instagib stuff than savage and gave the group more opportunities to actually recover from mistakes.

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The guy was talking about ACT and cheating. I remember using it in EQ2 but it was used as a damage parser. Has it evolved into a DBM type program in FFXIV?

IIRC, yes ACT can actually do that. I never used the custom triggers though.

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I would argue that competition is so ingrained in us as humans that by proxy it exists in gaming in some significant degree by default, but I'm absolutely open to reading/learning more if you have any recommendations to the contrary.

but then that digs into an even deeper philosophical question of why? Is it fear? Is it inadequacy? What about competition is interesting to consume, but not participate?

Don't act coy now, you know as well as I do that my statement is true. Blizzard shared such insight knowledge more than once and we know that only a tiny segment of the population raids Savage/Mythic. Same in Genshin Impact, most people never bother with the Abyss (only challenging content in there) and play casually.

I've never understood why people play, let a lone watch professional sports. It's just so utterly.... primitive, to run after some dumb ball. *chuckles*
Though I'd wager that a lot of the competition watching is due to the social aspects of having a common interest, stuff to talk and obsess about.
I can understand watching E-Sports to some degree, because watching the pro's can give you hints on how to play better yourself.

I'd say that 99% of the people on this planet do not have the skill to actually compete. I mean, what is there to compete for? 54845th place? You either have what it takes to be the best (in MMO Raider terms that would be world first material) or you needn't bother because there's a boatload of people that will always be better than you.

[loras]

True but it also means, that encounters need more unpredictable random elements.
FF-XIVs encounters are ridiculously scripted, so that often you actually are pushing the same button sequences every pull.
That in itself is just boring to me.

Well yeah, encounters do need to be adapted to such a change, but as you say that would not be a bad change

[Ludek]

I think maybe you misunderstand. Those groups are created specifically for parsing. Everyone who joins is aware of what they are there for. Those aren't some random Raid finder groups.

I don't do them, but people should be allowed to play for those goals as long as they aren't pushing them on unwitting people.

I don't care much about parses or PUG-ing in this game yet I actually kinda wonder if it is a banable thing. How those groups are advertised in the PF? I assume it has to be something like "speedkill" or "speedrun", because naming in "parse run" would imply breaking the third party rule of TOS (of course Square probably woudn't do a thing unless some mass reporting)

[T-34]

Those are not video games.

Humans are not competitive by nature. It's a choice. If it were our nature, everyone would do it.

I stand corrected. You are of course right:
A minority of humans beings are lazy and leeches by nature. Those people are the wilfully unwilling that nobody wants to hire, have as friends, marry or play with.

[Necromantic]

I don't care much about parses or PUG-ing in this game yet I actually kinda wonder if it is a banable thing. How those groups are advertised in the PF? I assume it has to be something like "speedkill" or "speedrun", because naming in "parse run" would imply breaking the third party rule of TOS (of course Square probably woudn't do a thing unless some mass reporting)

That's actually a pretty good point. Probably why I've never seen that term in my years. I understand that parsing can be a useful tool but I've always been against it because it's weaponized astronomically more than it's used for good. And that's true in just about any game that has them.

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I stand corrected. You are of course right:
A minority of humans beings are lazy and leeches by nature. Those people are the wilfully unwilling that nobody wants to hire, have as friends, marry or play with.

I would say a lot of humans are lazy from my real life experience but we won't go there as people here seem to get banned for posting anecdotes...

I understand many people are competitive. My point to the aforementioned was that it's good to have the option but not shoehorn people into it.

[Cinnamilk]

I stand corrected. You are of course right:
A minority of humans beings are lazy and leeches by nature. Those people are the wilfully unwilling that nobody wants to hire, have as friends, marry or play with.

Take some time and smell the flowers, Type A.

People aren't all motivated by the same thing nor have the desire to compete, but are fine with enriching the people around them and themselves for their own intrinsic reasons.
Just because they can't live up to your standards doesn't devalue them of their human worth.

The people who can't see that are nuisenses to everyone around them, and just too stubborn to see it.

[Dastreus]

The raiding community isn't split on this. Those who use third party addons are doing their thing. If they list a PF or static as needing said addon, it's reportable, and it will be acted on. I haven't heard dick about the community being split on this, let alone people being like "oh man we're being left behind". Neither is the game a ghost town with people leaving in droves. I haven't seen that, either.

[Wrecktangle]

Don't act coy now, you know as well as I do that my statement is true. Blizzard shared such insight knowledge more than once and we know that only a tiny segment of the population raids Savage/Mythic. Same in Genshin Impact, most people never bother with the Abyss (only challenging content in there) and play casually.

Sure they may not raid mythic, but that doesn't mean they aren't competitive in their sphere. You could be a normal raid group, and you are competing against others in the same vein, as well as other players in your ilvl bracket. Not only that, but just because they choose to play an MMO less competitively doesn't mean they get their competitive itch scratched elsewhere. Maybe they play fighting games, shooters, mobas, etc. They would still be competitive gamers in this example.

I've never understood why people play, let a lone watch professional sports. It's just so utterly.... primitive, to run after some dumb ball. *chuckles*
Though I'd wager that a lot of the competition watching is due to the social aspects of having a common interest, stuff to talk and obsess about.
I can understand watching E-Sports to some degree, because watching the pro's can give you hints on how to play better yourself.

Some people prefer to compete against themselves too. Does this mean they aren't competitive? Why does a pianist try to learn La Campanella if not to see what they are capable of or to attempt something others were unable? Is that not a form of competition?

Do you actively play any sports or have you in any meaningful capacity? Not an attack, merely curious as someone who hates watching sports, but will play almost anything (except basketball, fuck that game, I'm garbage at it).

I'd say that 99% of the people on this planet do not have the skill to actually compete. I mean, what is there to compete for? 54845th place? You either have what it takes to be the best (in MMO Raider terms that would be world first material) or you needn't bother because there's a boatload of people that will always be better than you.

That's so reductive. With that mindset the Special Olympics wouldn't exist. Everyone can compete if they want to, it's just important to be realistic about your skills and goals and make sure you're competing in the correct sphere.

[Necromantic]

That's so reductive. With that mindset the Special Olympics wouldn't exist. Everyone can compete if they want to, it's just important to be realistic about your skills and goals and make sure you're competing in the correct sphere.

The Special Olympics exist for people with physical or mental handicaps, not people who are just less "skilled" or "adept" at a game.

[The Casualty]

That's entirely missing the point of Wreck's argument.

In any given sport, there are major and minor leagues, youth leagues, intramural etc...; in chess there are a ton of different brackets, in things like wrestling/boxing there are weight classes; and in plenty of sports or activities, you are just trying to better yourself. The notion that you can't compete if you are somewhere in the middle or even the end is ridiculous. It's like asking why do people run the marathon if they aren't going to come in at the front.

In this game people compete for world first, data center first, server first, or even just amongst their friend group, or hell just to see if they can do the next tier faster than the one before. Gatekeeping the desire to compete is silly.

[Ghost of Cow]

I mean just looking at the top views on twitch, they're largely competitive games. Looking at the most active games on steam, seems to be a similar trend. Like worst case scenario I can see is that people aren't competitive themselves, but enjoy watching competition, but then that digs into an even deeper philosophical question of why? Is it fear? Is it inadequacy? What about competition is interesting to consume, but not participate?

A lot of it just comes down to the work and time involved to be "competitive" in something.

I like watching SC2 tournaments, for example, but the amount of time and work it would take for me to get "good" at the game would simply be better spent on literally anything else in my life that would be more productive. I might play it just casually on and off when I feel like it, sure. But that's about it.

[KrayZ33]

I personaly believe that the part of the community that is bothered by this is usually the part of community I want to have gone from "my" game (alongside the guy in the video itself of course).

Obviously and without doubt, everyone plays for something and some people really try to be the first and best etc. and that is all fine and every opinion is worth just as much as the other. I, personally, just don't need them around because they tend to be very vocal about things and try to move devs, the groups they are in, or the people they play with, into their competitiveness even if they don't want it.
That's my experience. I did raid with people wiping the try if their opener was messed up by something. Yeah... just 1 minute wasted, but it's still fucking annoying me because I just don't find it important myself. Another extreme case would be that I was playing with a girl who said, and she was serious btw, that she messed up her opener during the first 30 seconds of the fight as a *whitemage*. These people are being influenced by that.

I, for example, feel at most "sad" about that video and think hes killing all the fun this game has to offer. If he is doing it to be competitive, it's even worse because it's a joke (he removed what could make you compete against others from the game). You can't feel angry, you have to feel sorry for him.
At the same time however I don't feel anything in me that would make me actually care, because as long as the devs don't "recognize" these players and try to bring them on the playingfield, they will not design encounters to counteract that kind of play and I think they shouldn't.
Because as soon as you start doing that, the game will change heavily.
Some people will like it of course. I however like the scripted fights (even though I wish they wouldn't last 8-11 minutes)... just about everyone can learn them and I can play with everyone I want. If it were more difficult, I'd have to adjust myself and find different people to play with if I want to see Savage or Ultimates.

I can compete with myself and improve against myself. I don't need others for that - at most I'd like to see how good others are so I can understand at what level of skill I'm playing at. But this game isn't competitive, and that's why I like it... and that's why I think it shouldn't become competitive through balance changes or for the sake of bragging rights.
Even that guy in the video doesn't get his kill for free, as long as it's like that, I'm fine with it.

In essence, if he leaves me alone, I will leave him alone. I will "fight" everyone that will try to bring this kind of thing to PF though.
"You should use addon XY" or whatever... that's the stuff I just don't want to see. Design the game without a single addon in mind, that way addons remain mostly irrelevant for the majority of the playerbase and most people probably also remain in their own "sphere" in this game.

[Jazzhands]

Don't act coy now, you know as well as I do that my statement is true. Blizzard shared such insight knowledge more than once and we know that only a tiny segment of the population raids Savage/Mythic. Same in Genshin Impact, most people never bother with the Abyss (only challenging content in there) and play casually.

I've never understood why people play, let a lone watch professional sports. It's just so utterly.... primitive, to run after some dumb ball. *chuckles*
Though I'd wager that a lot of the competition watching is due to the social aspects of having a common interest, stuff to talk and obsess about.
I can understand watching E-Sports to some degree, because watching the pro's can give you hints on how to play better yourself.

I'd say that 99% of the people on this planet do not have the skill to actually compete. I mean, what is there to compete for? 54845th place? You either have what it takes to be the best (in MMO Raider terms that would be world first material) or you needn't bother because there's a boatload of people that will always be better than you.

Sounds like you don't even know what competitive raiding is in FF14.

Also Chess is considered a sport. I guess people like Kasparov and Magnus Carlsen are just primitive oafs though, yeah? Figure skating is a sport. Gymnastics. Martial Arts. Literally everything at the Olympics is a sport. People do sports because they enjoy it, they enjoy pushing themselves to their limits, and want to be the best. No one just wakes up and goes "Oh yeah, I'm the best I should play sports", they spend years and years refining and competing to become the best. No one at the top knew they would get there before competing and improving to get there.

[Katchii]

Playing a sport, or participating in something where competition exists, doesn't automatically mean the person is competitive or is actively competing against someone else. It's possible to enjoy the game, the sport, the "thing" for what it brings you or does for you personally rather than for the competition itself. i.e. It's possible to enjoy playing basketball with your friends just because you enjoy playing basketball, enjoy the physical activity, etc... without being actively competitive (you're not playing with the explicit purpose of winning or doing better than someone else, winning is not the goal). A certain level of competition is inherent in that activity though, simply because the activity is by nature about winning or losing through skill and ability, but that's not why they do it or what they enjoy about it. The competition isn't the point, playing the game is the point.

[Granyala]

Some people prefer to compete against themselves too. Does this mean they aren't competitive? Why does a pianist try to learn La Campanella if not to see what they are capable of or to attempt something others were unable? Is that not a form of competition?

Do you actively play any sports or have you in any meaningful capacity? Not an attack, merely curious as someone who hates watching sports, but will play almost anything (except basketball, fuck that game, I'm garbage at it).

Competing against yourself is just learning and improving yourself, that has little to do with competition.
Also, 99% of all pianists do not learn anything that others can't do because it has already been done, recorded and sold anyway.

Why do we still try to learn and play it? Personal enjoyment (or because it is your job, if you are a pro). As a hobbyist, I will never be able to compete against anyone, much less a professional that made the Piano the center of his life. "Competing in your sphere" is an absurd concept to me. What would be the point to compete against other hobbyists?

No I don't do any sports, even as a kid I thought that expending all that energy just to run after some dumb ball was a retarded thing to do.
On top of that, I have 80% disability, so not much motivation to do anything with my body anyway, since all other kids were orders of magnitude better than I was. :'D

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Also Chess is considered a sport.
No one at the top knew they would get there before competing and improving to get there.

Yeah, makes no sense to me that Chess is considered a sport but hey, they call Star Craft II matches E-Sports so .. um .. yeah.

They didn't know whether they could be #1, true but they had a realistic chance to get there.
99% of all games do not have a realistic chance to ever get there, so to "compete" against some random other guild on your server is completely meaningless.

I know what competitive raiding and competitive mindsets are, I've done it for some years. We never really got anywhere impressive but my buddies sure would stare at stats and other guilds progress and grumble about the lack of our own. Idiotic. The only competition, if you can call it that, I found fun was with my Co-SPriest. We were very close in skill, and it was fun to see who came out on top in the parses. We didn't compete in a hostile manner though, we frequently exchanged tips on what we were doing and even passed on gear for the other, so we could keep a level playing field. It was never about winning for us.

[Jazzhands]

Yeah, makes no sense to me that Chess is considered a sport but hey, they call Star Craft II matches E-Sports so .. um .. yeah.

They didn't know whether they could be #1, true but they had a realistic chance to get there.
99% of all games do not have a realistic chance to ever get there, so to "compete" against some random other guild on your server is completely meaningless.

I know what competitive raiding and competitive mindsets are, I've done it for some years. We never really got anywhere impressive but my buddies sure would stare at stats and other guilds progress and grumble about the lack of our own. Idiotic. The only competition, if you can call it that, I found fun was with my Co-SPriest. We were very close in skill, and it was fun to see who came out on top in the parses. We didn't compete in a hostile manner though, we frequently exchanged tips on what we were doing and even passed on gear for the other, so we could keep a level playing field. It was never about winning for us.

You basically come across as that edgy teenager who thinks he's cool because he "doesn't understand" the popular stuff and thinks he's above it. You legit don't even know what qualifies as a sport, yet they're all "primitive" according to you. Never mind that most athletes even in sports like Soccer, one I'm sure you consider quite primitive, are likely more educated than you, they often do a lot more than just "chase a ball". You don't understand why others enjoy being competitive with strangers or why people might get frustrated with a lack of progress in what should be a progress-oriented environment, so that makes them idiotic. Not, you know, just different than you. They're idiotic, simply because they enjoy something you "don't understand".

It's funny though because then you straight up say you had fun competing, just not in the way other people enjoy competing, so other people are idiotic. Literally it's just the fact that people are different and like different things than you.