Dragonflight and its Multiple, Potential Meanings

[S2H]

The recent news of the Titan's being overzealous slave owners is interesting at best. Given the information that the water of the titans enslaves dragons and is therefore just as bad as the Old God's corruption , I think the true meaning of the expansion Dragonflight is misinterpreted.

I believe the true "Dragonflight" of the expansion is the five flights gaining independence from the titans, ie the 'flight' meaning 'fleeing'.

[Lochton]

The recent news of the Titan's being overzealous slave owners is interesting at best. Given the information that the water of the titans enslaves dragons and is therefore just as bad as the Old God's corruption , I think the true meaning of the expansion Dragonflight is misinterpreted.

I believe the true "Dragonflight" of the expansion is the five flights gaining independence from the titans, ie the 'flight' meaning 'fleeing'.

I believe the answer wasn't the titans being the issue but that they left their keepers/watchers to handle Azeroth, and some of them were not able to keep a steady path *cough* Odyn *cough* Helya *cough* The five heads of flight were given their powers willingly, the interaction of the other, were questionable.

[Varodoc]

I still don't understand why the fandom took for granted the idea that the Titans are good guys.

Sargeras is literally one of them, and he was the biggest slave owner in the universe, as well as a manipulative villain. Sargeras was like that, why did the fandom simply assume that the other titans were different and Sargeras was just the black sheep? This was a flawed assumption made by the fandom just because Aman'thul had the appearance of a kind grandpa. In reality, there was no reason to assume that the other Titans were somehow better than Sargeras. Who was literally their brother.

Me and others, as well as Blizzard itself, have been saying for years that NO Cosmic power in Warcraft is universally "good" or "evil".

And So, just like the dragons struggled to free themselves from the corruption of the Old Gods, now they have to free themselves from the constraints imposed upon them by the Titans.

[pinkspring]

None of this is news, though!

We knew from the day WoW launched that:
- The titans arrived to Azeroth and locked away and eliminated its previous denizens
- Seeded the world with races of their design, who were physically incapable of defying their will (Earthen, Mechagnomes, Vrykul)
- Uplifted the Dragons with their powers and charged them with the keeping of Azeroth (I'm sorry, but that does imply binding the Dragons to their will, either by indoctrination, willing subservience, or magical compelment)

The only difference is so far the lore painted the Titans as noble creators due to the implication that what they replaced was pure evil, but the "reveal" that the Titans were overlords that compelled their creations to serve them isn't new. Nor the fact that they were jerks.
Remember Algolon, who'se instant response to seeing the world as it is today was to trigger a global apocalypse that the players only barely beat him down from? He was acting on instructions from his creators. And we've known this since Wrath.

The phrasing is new, now it's being depicted as a bad thing.

[loras]

None of this is news, though!

We knew from the day WoW launched that:
- The titans arrived to Azeroth and locked away and eliminated its previous denizens
- Seeded the world with races of their design, who were physically incapable of defying their will (Earthen, Mechagnomes, Vrykul)
- Uplifted the Dragons with their powers and charged them with the keeping of Azeroth (I'm sorry, but that does imply binding the Dragons to their will, either by indoctrination, willing subservience, or magical compelment)

The only difference is so far the lore painted the Titans as noble creators due to the implication that what they replaced was pure evil, but the "reveal" that the Titans were overlords that compelled their creations to serve them isn't new. Nor the fact that they were jerks.
Remember Algolon, who'se instant response to seeing the world as it is today was to trigger a global apocalypse that the players only barely beat him down from? He was acting on instructions from his creators. And we've known this since Wrath.

The phrasing is new, now it's being depicted as a bad thing.

...How again is the preventing the creation of a reality-ending monster-god a jerk move again?
For all we know Algalon's failure may still have doomed Azeroth, as the old gods tend to leave rather obvious cues on death that have been conspicuously absent in the cases of Yogg-Saron and C'thun (N'zoth's death triggered the collapse of alternate reality - something at least on par with the original sundering), meaning they may still be closing in on their goal of corrupting Azeroth into a void titan.

Not saying they are, but rather pointing out that even our unexpectable succes may not have been enough to make sparing the planet the actual better choice than the "jerk move" of reoriginating it.


And keep in mind that they could have just reoriginated it when they found it in its old-god infested state; it would have allowed the chance for another world soul to grow. So they already gave the planet and its inhabitants the benefit of the doubt before.

Honestly i find the lack of perspective among the current devscand some of the playerbase a bit worrying.

- - - Updated - - -

The recent news of the Titan's being overzealous slave owners is interesting at best. Given the information that the water of the titans enslaves dragons and is therefore just as bad as the Old God's corruption , I think the true meaning of the expansion Dragonflight is misinterpreted.

I believe the true "Dragonflight" of the expansion is the five flights gaining independence from the titans, ie the 'flight' meaning 'fleeing'.

Imagine a slave owner that gives you super powers, is literally never there, whose only command is "look after the place" and gives you pretty damn sweet housing. Also you get your own actual slaves in the forms of the many purpose-built constructs.

Seriously this is bad a take as that film about black kings "fighting against slavery" who in reality offered up their people pre-caged and pre-broken on the beaches because Europeans could not survive disease-rich Africa before the advent of semi-modern medicine.

[Frontenac]

I still don't understand why the fandom took for granted the idea that the Titans are good guys.

Sargeras is literally one of them, and he was the biggest slave owner in the universe, as well as a manipulative villain. Sargeras was like that, why did the fandom simply assume that the other titans were different and Sargeras was just the black sheep? This was a flawed assumption made by the fandom just because Aman'thul had the appearance of a kind grandpa. In reality, there was no reason to assume that the other Titans were somehow better than Sargeras. Who was literally their brother.

Me and others, as well as Blizzard itself, have been saying for years that NO Cosmic power in Warcraft is universally "good" or "evil".

And So, just like the dragons struggled to free themselves from the corruption of the Old Gods, now they have to free themselves from the constraints imposed upon them by the Titans.

Maybe because they were painted as good guys from the get go. I don't know when you started to play, but it was clear in Warcraft 3 that the Titans were the good guys, and that Sargeras started as a good guy who fell into despair and started to undo what the Pantheon did. On Azeroth, the Titans brought order to a world tyrannized by the Old Gods who kept it in permanent chaos and suffering. Sargeras was Warcraft's Lucifer. What he became does not reflect on all the other Titans. Even in the beginning of WoW, the Titans were described as a benevolent power. It's only in WotLK that things started to change, and even then Blizz invented the Titan Watchers and they are the ones who got corrupted, like Loken or Odyn and Helya. Even now, our dealings with the Titans themselves in Legion showed them as imperfect but generally decent folks. And Aman'thul's appearance has no real influence on that assumption since it is also fairly recent.

- - - Updated - - -

None of this is news, though!

We knew from the day WoW launched that:
- The titans arrived to Azeroth and locked away and eliminated its previous denizens

And the Old Gods and their Elemental minions were described as evil bringing suffering and death to the world

- Seeded the world with races of their design, who were physically incapable of defying their will (Earthen, Mechagnomes, Vrykul)

The Earthen were constructs, so of course they were incapable of defying their will. Would we build robots able to disobey us? Same with Mechagnomes and Vrykul, but we didn't know of their existence before WotLK... Note that once these constructs changed into their fleshy forms, the Watchers didn't destroy them and let them be.

- Uplifted the Dragons with their powers and charged them with the keeping of Azeroth (I'm sorry, but that does imply binding the Dragons to their will, either by indoctrination, willing subservience, or magical compelment)

There's nothing in the charge of the Aspects that makes such enslavement of their wills necessary. And nothing in the Dragons' story as had been told from WC3 implied that kind of mind control or binding before the very recent developments in Dragonflight. What was proposed at WoW's launch is that the dragons willingly helped the Titans to fight the Old Gods and then the Titans rewarded them by making them the guardians of the world. They changed the story a bit afterward, but still nothing implied any form of coercion before the present expansion.

The only difference is so far the lore painted the Titans as noble creators due to the implication that what they replaced was pure evil, but the "reveal" that the Titans were overlords that compelled their creations to serve them isn't new. Nor the fact that they were jerks.
Remember Algolon, who'se instant response to seeing the world as it is today was to trigger a global apocalypse that the players only barely beat him down from? He was acting on instructions from his creators. And we've known this since Wrath.

The phrasing is new, now it's being depicted as a bad thing.

Reorigination would have been a bad thing for us, but it would have got Azeroth rid of the Old Gods and able to start anew. From a Titan perspective, it was a good thing. Note again that when Algalon saw we may be powerful enough to fight the corruption, he decided to give us a chance at it. Which shows that the Titans respect our rights and our freedom to some extant.

[Zuben]

Taking into account how the flights turned out (sans Void influence with the blacks and whatever was going on with Malygos) I think said titanic influence was a net positive. It's not like the considerable prosperity in first world countries wasn't built on dubious grounds. Eggs were definitely broken to make the omelet (and still are tbh). With Exterminatus being in the Titans' playbook for planets that don't quite go by their initial design we've known for a long time they aren't benevolent so much as happen to fit our ideals (when not actively trying to kill us). Azeroth without Order would suck, especially as Shadow got to it too. I don't give a shit that dragons were given mind-influencing drugs if it was to nudge the world towards a more preferable state from our perspective. It's still miles away from what's going on with the Lightbound.

[Nadiru]

This water stuff ain't a damn revelation, why is everyone treating it like that? this has been baked into night elf lore forever, probably back to WC3 design docs. They mentioned that shit again in Mists of Pandaria for sure, and it might have gotten some screentime in Wrath in some of the Sholozar quests.

[Hobbidaggy]

It’s not really slave/control more an influence to them. The dragons have free will because we have seen examples of it. Without free will they would be like the Earthen and without emotions doing their duty above all else regardless of the consequences. But they don’t and sometimes they do things that brings about sorrow and sadness because it is for the greater good.

I am also in no way saying the titans did nothing wrong. Their influence and order magic has had some effect on the dragons but it certainly isnt mind control/slavery.

Exactly what it is we will probably be shown. Possibly it is a way of granting them the magic that they use because Proto-Drakes don’t have a visage (that we have seen) and don’t have any real magical abilities aside from the basic ones, where we see the Dragons use actual magic abilities casting spells etc and also visages and becoming “human” outside of the primal awe had never seen a Proto-Drake speak either and only a few had intelligence during the Dawn of the Aspects novel. Most were rather mindless and instinctive.

Could this be the order magics effect? Granting higher thinking where there was barely any, greater magical abilities, visage form style abilities and a different shape compared to their proto-form?

[bloodmoth13]

People are exaggerating the 'enslaving' part.
I doubt they did anything maliciously, but their actions could have had negative effects.
For the most part the dragons were uplifted from beasts into intellectual beings. They were given armies, powers and intelligence that they used to assist the mortal races and help life blossom on azeroth.
From the point of view of living creatures and orderly beings they were good and the titans gifts were a blessing, from the point of view of chaos and void they were a threat, and perhaps what is most crucial is the point of view of the elements which I am guessing is what the dragons were intended to represent as a 4th cosmic power, in that case they might have failed to accomplish their goals as elemental protectors and left certain critical elements neglected which may lead to problems in the future.

I like the idea that they were always meant to be true neutral and titan influence while well intentioned could wind up creating devastating problems down the road.

[liyroot]

Jesus this story is so corny. Now the titans are bad guys? Guess they are running out of raid bosses. Who else can they set up as the next big bad?

[Hobbidaggy]

Jesus this story is so corny. Now the titans are bad guys? Guess they are running out of raid bosses. Who else can they set up as the next big bad?

They aren’t bad or good. They are what they are. Beings that seek Order in a reality without it so they go around and create Order.

Like being a drop of red dye in a glass of water. You aren’t bad you are just what you are and what you are makes things red so you just go about making things red.

People are just calling them bad because they are taking the “slave” thing too far and blizzard has even said as much but once you give people something it’s hard to take it back or make them think otherwise

[OokOok]

I still don't understand why the fandom took for granted the idea that the Titans are good guys.

Sargeras is literally one of them, and he was the biggest slave owner in the universe, as well as a manipulative villain. Sargeras was like that, why did the fandom simply assume that the other titans were different and Sargeras was just the black sheep? This was a flawed assumption made by the fandom just because Aman'thul had the appearance of a kind grandpa. In reality, there was no reason to assume that the other Titans were somehow better than Sargeras. Who was literally their brother.

Me and others, as well as Blizzard itself, have been saying for years that NO Cosmic power in Warcraft is universally "good" or "evil".

And So, just like the dragons struggled to free themselves from the corruption of the Old Gods, now they have to free themselves from the constraints imposed upon them by the Titans.

Imagine having such a low IQ that you perceive sargeras as "the biggest slave owner and a manipulative villain"

You need to do some research apparently if you think Sargeras was so one dimensional

[Varodoc]

Jesus this story is so corny. Now the titans are bad guys? Guess they are running out of raid bosses. Who else can they set up as the next big bad?

Sargeras was the biggest slave owner in the universe and one of the most deceptive and manipulative villains in the franchise. He was also a Titan. I don't see why you jumped to the conclusion that the other Titans couldn't at least share some of his brother's traits.

[liyroot]

Sargeras was the biggest slave owner in the universe and one of the most deceptive and manipulative villains in the franchise. He was also a Titan. I don't see why you jumped to the conclusion that the other Titans couldn't at least share some of his brother's traits.

Cause I played WC3 20 years ago and that was the story. It's the same story as Lucifer. He was a god that fell from grace. Now he's gone and they need a new punching bag. Repeating the same story is unacceptable. I'm checked out.
Ok, so now the titans are evil and won't let the dragons be free. So let's fucking murder them. Or are they going to get corrupted? It's the same crap over and over and nothing changes. Are the old gods going to corrupt an elemental? Maybe the old gods will turn out to be the good guys. In the end, it doesn't matter. We kill the Thanos and then there is a cliffhanger about an even bigger bad guy.

Sargaras was great because that was the entire mythos of WoW. He was an opaque nebulous idea. The whole idea of killing him really should be the end of the story. Because if it isn't, the writers are trapped in a Dragon Ball Z loop were they need to some how pull even a bigger threat out of their asses. Except Sargaras was set up for 2 decades. So now the writers are forced into pretend that the new villains are somehow involved in very old plotlines.Killing another or all the titans no longer has any weight. What does it matter?

The Jailor served what purpose in the story? Absolutely nothing has changed from beginning to end except Sylvanus' redemption. We have conqoured and befriended death itself and who cares? Forget all of that, time to do dragons yet again. Killing the naruu or the void or ANYTHING has no substance any longer. Especially in a world full of time travel, retconning, no law, no stability, and characters constantly returning from the dead. Most importantly, a world with only very superficial changes and no consequences.

[Jaggler]

Jesus this story is so corny. Now the titans are bad guys? Guess they are running out of raid bosses. Who else can they set up as the next big bad?

Not bad guys. Just guys with their own agenda. most of the time it aligns with ours. When push come to shove it might not. Just like the Light. Most of the time it aligns with our goals, like killing demons and undead. Some times, like when Xe'ra tried to bind Illidan, it might not.

And no, the Dragon's aren't mind controlled by the Titans. Just like the Void Elves aren't mind controlled by the Void or the Light-bound mind controlled by the Light.

[Varodoc]

Cause I played WC3 20 years ago and that was the story. It's the same story as Lucifer. He was a god that fell from grace. Now he's gone and they need a new punching bag. Repeating the same story is unacceptable. I'm checked out.
Ok, so now the titans are evil and won't let the dragons be free. So let's fucking murder them. Or are they going to get corrupted? It's the same crap over and over and nothing changes. Are the old gods going to corrupt an elemental? Maybe the old gods will turn out to be the good guys. In the end, it doesn't matter. We kill the Thanos and then there is a cliffhanger about an even bigger bad guy.

Sargaras was great because that was the entire mythos of WoW. He was an opaque nebulous idea. The whole idea of killing him really should be the end of the story. Because if it isn't, the writers are trapped in a Dragon Ball Z loop were they need to some how pull even a bigger threat out of their asses. Except Sargaras was set up for 2 decades. So now the writers are forced into pretend that the new villains are somehow involved in very old plotlines.Killing another or all the titans no longer has any weight. What does it matter?

The Jailor served what purpose in the story? Absolutely nothing has changed from beginning to end except Sylvanus' redemption. We have conqoured and befriended death itself and who cares? Forget all of that, time to do dragons yet again. Killing the naruu or the void or ANYTHING has no substance any longer. Especially in a world full of time travel, retconning, no law, no stability, and characters constantly returning from the dead. Most importantly, a world with only very superficial changes and no consequences.

Lucifer wasn't a God, he was an Angel, another creation of the Christian God. He rebelled against the Christian God and was banished for his hubris.

And, by the way, Lucifer wasn't alone in his rebellion. There were other fallen angels who rebelled with him and were banished with him to the core of the earth. So even if you wanted to compare Sargeras to Lucifer, there could still be other Titans who were as corrupted as Lucifer. Lucifer himself wasn't alone in his rebellion nor was he an isolated case.

So your comparison is flawed. Sargeras wasn't a creation or an underling of the Titans, he was one of them, he was their brother. The only way your reasoning makes any sense if is Sargeras was somehow a very strong case of black sheep of the family, but that would be headcanon and nothing more. There was no concrete, solid piece of evidence that painted Sargeras as the black sheep and the other Titans as so much different than him.

The Janitor Zovaal fits the idea of "Christian Devil" far more and better than Sargeras. Not only because Danuser and co. acknowledged Dante's Comedy as one of their main sources of inspiration for the Shadowlands, but the Janitor, more than Sargeras, matches the idea of "rebellious creation going against the divine creators". Zovaal despised and defied the system created by the First Ones and sought to overthrow it, like Lucifer with God, and as punishment, he was exiled to the Maw (which is literal Hell).

Meanwhile, Sargeras is similar but not quite. To begin with, he wasn't rebelling against the First Ones necessarily, but against his brothers, his family. Not against his Creator Gods.

[liyroot]

Lucifer wasn't a God, he was an Angel, another creation of the Christian God. He rebelled against the Christian God and was banished for his hubris.

And, by the way, Lucifer wasn't alone in his rebellion. There were other fallen angels who rebelled with him and were banished with him to the core of the earth. So even if you wanted to compare Sargeras to Lucifer, there could still be other Titans who were as corrupted as Lucifer. Lucifer himself wasn't alone in his rebellion nor was he an isolated case.

So your comparison is flawed. Sargeras wasn't a creation or an underling of the Titans, he was one of them, he was their brother. The only way your reasoning makes any sense if is Sargeras was somehow a very strong case of black sheep of the family, but that would be headcanon and nothing more. There was no concrete, solid piece of evidence that painted Sargeras as the black sheep and the other Titans as so much different than him.

The Janitor Zovaal fits the idea of "Christian Devil" far more and better than Sargeras. Not only because Danuser and co. acknowledged Dante's Comedy as one of their main sources of inspiration for the Shadowlands, but the Janitor, more than Sargeras, matches the idea of "rebellious creation going against the divine creators". Zovaal despised and defied the system created by the First Ones and sought to overthrow it, like Lucifer with God, and as punishment, he was exiled to the Maw (which is literal Hell).

Meanwhile, Sargeras is similar but not quite. To begin with, he wasn't rebelling against the First Ones necessarily, but against his brothers, his family. Not against his Creator Gods.

Sargaras is a god with two giant goat horns and lives in a perpetually burning place filled with demons.

[Le Conceptuel]

Not only because Danuser and co. acknowledged Dante's Comedy

They got the banality of evil right, that's for sure.

[Caerule]

Blizzard has recently gone into this. The waters don't enslave. But as they are purified by Order magic, it reduces the risk of falling to chaos. Like a vaccine. Given that the world just had Galakrond showing what happens when a dragon goes off the rails, and that they're dealing with a race that agreed to serve their cause. I doubt the intent here was sinister.

Does that make the Titans evil? I don't think so. Are they fully the good guys? Not really either. These are beings of Order, with the perspective of Order. Even if you're nice within that framework, you're going to be working within the cause of order. (Though Odyn's clearly being set up as the one that's not nice)

I think this shouldn't really be a question about if the Titans are Good or Evil. But on if they are beneficial to us.

I think they largely are. They seem to care, in their way. They made this world into a place not just of order, but of Life. They didn't even wipe out the Elements, but gave them their own realms. And once their minions went off the rails? They didn't murder them. They still considered organic free-minded Dwarves to be a worthy race. They considered Dragons worthy of their power. They cheered us on and placed their trust in us, against Argus. They didn't kill Illidan, even though he's tainted with Chaos.

Now, the Keepers may be a different story. Odyn seemed barely tolerant of mortals. He was the one Tyr was writing to, trying to get him on board with the Dragons. The Titans didn't even do the mind-control water, but their servants did, well after they'd left. After Sargeras fell and killed them.

So, no. I don't think the Titans are unbeneficial to us. Nor are the Primalists the good guys for wanting to free us off their influence. A return to the time where the Elements ruled is not good for nature, societies, or any people unwilling to take their offer to become infused with the elements. Only those can thrive in a world like that. But that doesn't mean Order is Good. And I don't think it's the Titans that will ultimately make that clear, as much as it will be Odyn. I've got my eyes on that dude doing wonky things soon...