How can we forgive Wrathion

[Nymrohd]

I'd say the Alliance is currently in good hands with Turalyon. He seems to reflect older depictions of the Alliance well—resolute and firm in his commitments, albeit sometimes in excess, and righteous, for better or worse. I think he will make for a very good long-term leader for the Alliance, and I do think it's a shame that the Horde never really got a leader of a similarly faction-reflective character.

Well yes, Turalyon definitely can be that for the Alliance. I wish Blizzard could find some way to show current players a bit more of WC2 Turalyon. I was mostly talking about early WoW there. Thrall was not good Horde representation (Cairne was a much better choice) since he really was between the two worlds. And Varian definitely was not good Alliance representation and the same character on the Horde side would have fit so much better.

I do think they could reinvent Thrall into a proper Horde leader. They did not retire him when they could so he is still around, he is the most iconic Horde leader, he got his mom to give him a pep talk from the afterlife and he was originally a shaman and we are heading into an Elemental-focused expansion. They absolutely can bring Thrall late in this expac and give him a new hero moment to redefine him and make him cool again.

[Le Conceptuel]

I do think they could reinvent Thrall into a proper Horde leader. They did not retire him when they could so he is still around, he is the most iconic Horde leader, he got his mom to give him a pep talk from the afterlife and he was originally a shaman and we are heading into an Elemental-focused expansion. They absolutely can bring Thrall late in this expac and give him a new hero moment to redefine him and make him cool again.

Eh, I think Thrall's kind of constrained by his history and seniority. Everything to do with Cataclysm and the like sort of precludes him really returning to a proper face of the Horde in my opinion because he's been sort of eternally reshaped into this faction-impartial character who exists divorced from the Horde he created. I definitely could see him improving for some reason or another as a character, but the specter of Cataclysm looms large over Thrall, and I don't think his current identity is compatible with the idea of the Horde as it is (well, aside from both being neutered in some capacity).

This is actually a problem with a chunk of the new council. Some of its members are either glorified neutral actors (i.e. Thrall, at this point) or effectively Alliance proxy leaders (i.e. Calia)

[Nymrohd]

Eh, I think Thrall's kind of constrained by his history and seniority. Everything to do with Cataclysm and the like sort of precludes him really returning to a proper face of the Horde in my opinion because he's been sort of eternally reshaped into this faction-impartial character who exists divorced from the Horde he created. I definitely could see him improving for some reason or another as a character, but the specter of Cataclysm looms large over Thrall, and I don't think his current identity is compatible with the idea of the Horde as it is (well, aside from both being neutered in some capacity).

This is actually a problem with a chunk of the new council. Some of its members are either glorified neutral actors (i.e. Thrall, at this point) or effectively Alliance proxy leaders (i.e. Calia)

I think Thrall should grow like the playerbase has grown. People who started WC3 and WoW as teenagers are probably dads now, just like Thrall. Maybe Thrall can focus on that; the future of the Horde is the future of his very orcish children so he needs to focus on that to give his children a better future. It would resonate with the increasingly older playerbase.

[Le Conceptuel]

I think Thrall should grow like the playerbase has grown. People who started WC3 and WoW as teenagers are probably dads now, just like Thrall. Maybe Thrall can focus on that; the future of the Horde is the future of his very orcish children so he needs to focus on that to give his children a better future. It would resonate with the increasingly older playerbase.

Although I wouldn't say that's going to help much with the Horde leadership problem, I do think that's an interesting way to go with his lore. It's a perfectly good idea and I think it would be a nice way to keep a connection with the changing values and personalities of WoW's older audience.

I have to admit that I'm more of the generational camp analogous to Anduin or Salandria, so I can't really serve as a particularly good judge of that, but I do like that idea quite a bit. I figure that's somewhere around the direction the writers are interested in going in, actually.

[pinkspring]

Absolutely, Wrathion got away with the most heinous stuff. It's nepotism in its clearest form - The man should be punished, but because he is friends with the King all is forgiven.

As for current leaders, I feel like Baine might be slowly stepping up as a "first amongst equals", which is good if they can flesh him out just a little bit more.

[Ropeway]

Well, WoW lore has committed far worse travesties in recent times. Take for instance Maiev getting back to being all cool and hunky dory, getting positions of authority, after having literally tried to MURDER the two faction leaders of the Night Elves, after a string of brutal torture-murders of Highborne who'd been allowed to live in Darnassus by those two. That too at a time of crisis. All of this without even counting that she'd abandoned one of them to her death during WC2:TFT.

Mind you, Illidian was put on ice for 10,000 years not for whatever he did during the War of the Ancients. He was sentenced to it after killing Lord Blackforest and a couple of other randos at the top of Mt. Hyjal after the War of the Ancients was already over. Otherwise, they weren't going to do anything to him.

Meanwhile Maiev gets to waltz right back in as if nothing happened.

The guy that tried having the two super powers wipe each other out and cause conflict bringing death to both each other and the natives of pandaria alike.

Consider the fact that the Alliance and Horde were going at each other's throats anyway. Although I agree with the rest of what you said.

He's a relatively well written character, in that the writers have conveyed well the POV of a naive young dragon (not one of the mortal races), who has already been forced to get comfortable with brutality by the circumstances surrounding his birth.

[Vaedan]

I'd say the Alliance is currently in good hands with Turalyon. He seems to reflect older depictions of the Alliance well—resolute and firm in his commitments, albeit sometimes in excess, and righteous, for better or worse. I think he will make for a very good long-term leader for the Alliance, and I do think it's a shame that the Horde never really got a leader of a similarly faction-reflective character.

Unfortunately, Turalyon is most likely destined to step down the moment Anduin come back, which will possibly happen somewhere between the end of Dragonflight and next expansion.

[Biomega]

Unfortunately, Turalyon is most likely destined to step down the moment Anduin come back, which will possibly happen somewhere between the end of Dragonflight and next expansion.

What, you don't think they'll have us face some Big Bad mid-expansion that we have no chance of beating, until suddenly the Golden Lion appears and delivers us all like the fucking blond Jesus he is?

Because that's 100% what'll happen, you just wait.

[Rhlor]

I vote for sabellian for aspect

[Wyrt]

Sabellian actually cares about the flight and protecting the eggs and whatnot while Wrathion is a brat who only cares about power.

The choice is clear. Wrathion will still be aspect though.

[Mehrunes]

I consider myself a bit of a minority in that I didn't like Sylvanas as Warchief of the Horde (she's a fine character as the token evil teammate, but a shitty leader), I was pro-Saurfang, and I don't hate Baine. I thought Saurfang's characterization in BfA was a little too mopey given his previous characterization in Classic and WotLK, but I also understood where he was coming from, especially post-WotLK where he was hollowed out by the horror of what happened with his son. A lot of popular invective for Baine comes from his rather close friendships with Anduin and Jaina, but I think those friendships are intrinsic to his story arc and inform his character well. Baine's loyalty to the Horde has always been fractured due to the way he became chieftain of his people, the situation with his father's murder, and the fact that it was the Alliance and not his Horde peers who ultimately saved him from the coup Magatha engineered in the wake of Cairne's death. It makes sense to me that Baine would be the Horde's best diplomat with the Alliance, and I'm not so partisan that I feel the need to continuously denounce him as a traitor with every other breath.

Facts aren't partisan, they're just facts. And the facts are that Baine has repeatedly acted openly against his own faction to aid the Alliance, even to the point of killing Horde members. That makes him a traitor. As for the "way he became chieftain", the fact that it was Alliance that helped him against the coup is literally because of a choice Baine himself made. No one forced him to run to his human masters to ask for help instead of Horde's racial leaders. And all that was required for him to do so was a BS list of reasons against asking the Horde from Hamuul that never held up to any scrutiny, which Baine just accepted without any second thought because it gave him an excuse to fulfill his lifelong fantasy of being an Alliance doormat.

Speaking of which, a guy who puts the interests of the other faction above not only his own faction, but even his own people (case in point, that one time when he gave the same punishment to the Tauren who committed the grave sin of responding to their Warchief's call to war against the humans invading their territory in the Barrens as he gave to the Grimtotem that killed his father and kicked him out of Thunder Bluff) makes for a pretty terrible diplomat. The only form of diplomacy Baine knows is divulging Horde secrets to its enemies, suggesting surrender to them and sending enemy leaders his severed body parts as a sign of his eternal submission. All of which would have put any other diplomat in the deepest cell their nation could find. The moment he was forced to engage in any actual diplomacy like with the Vulpera wanting to join the Horde he instantly shat the bed. And then most likely sent that bed to Anduin so that another part of him could be owned by a human.

[Gloriandus]

I'd say Wrathion's problem is less malice and more stupidity. He thinks he's the badass manipulator figure with the lofty goals, but he's actually just kind of an idiot who sucks at everything.

(Sablemane gang)

Wrathion is Warren G in the song "Regulate".

[Aucald]

Facts aren't partisan, they're just facts. And the facts are that Baine has repeatedly acted openly against his own faction to aid the Alliance, even to the point of killing Horde members. That makes him a traitor. As for the "way he became chieftain", the fact that it was Alliance that helped him against the coup is literally because of a choice Baine himself made. No one forced him to run to his human masters to ask for help instead of Horde's racial leaders. And all that was required for him to do so was a BS list of reasons against asking the Horde from Hamuul that never held up to any scrutiny, which Baine just accepted without any second thought because it gave him an excuse to fulfill his lifelong fantasy of being an Alliance doormat.

I never claimed that "facts are partisan," I merely said that the overriding need to continuously call out Baine as a traitor is driven by partisanship, which is also a fact. Baine did indeed betray the Horde on multiple occasions, whether or not one agrees with his reasoning or reasons for doing so. Harping on that particular fact, though; is neither helpful nor all that instructive in this context, though.

Speaking of which, a guy who puts the interests of the other faction above not only his own faction, but even his own people (case in point, that one time when he gave the same punishment to the Tauren who committed the grave sin of responding to their Warchief's call to war against the humans invading their territory in the Barrens as he gave to the Grimtotem that killed his father and kicked him out of Thunder Bluff) makes for a pretty terrible diplomat.

That's not a question of diplomacy, but rather one of leadership. It's an open question as to whether you base the ethical nature of the objectors trumping the decision of their chieftain not to engage in the conflict - but regardless, that has little to do with diplomacy in general and nothing to do with diplomacy with the Alliance explicitly, which is the context in which I think Baine makes for a good diplomat (given his preexisting closeness to the Alliance).

[Coolface330]

I support Wrathion for Black Aspect Vs. Sabellan myself.

Sabellan is older, yes.

But he's sheletered - all he ever learned was Outlands. And Outlands is low tier.

Wrathion is young but he experienced the world of death, the Old Gods, near everything the player encountered.

[Aucald]

I support Wrathion for Black Aspect Vs. Sabellan myself.

Sabellan is older, yes.

But he's sheletered - all he ever learned was Outlands. And Outlands is low tier.

Wrathion is young but he experienced the world of death, the Old Gods, near everything the player encountered.

I lean toward Wrathion myself, as well. Having just replayed the Obsidian Sanctum part of DF I found Sabellian just rubs me the wrong way, personally - smarmy and entitled in a way that even Wrathion, who is himself entitled, doesn't really come across as. Wrathion, for all his many failures (and I do mean failures) has at least put in the effort and shown his work. Sabellian just flies in from veritable exile in Outland and expects to be handed the keys to the kingdom, sitting on his mostly unobservable laurels and demanding respect.

This is beyond the notion that I simply don't trust him, either.

[Jester Joe]

I lean toward Wrathion myself, as well. Having just replayed the Obsidian Sanctum part of DF I found Sabellian just rubs me the wrong way, personally - smarmy and entitled in a way that even Wrathion, who is himself entitled, doesn't really come across as. Wrathion, for all his many failures (and I do mean failures) has at least put in the effort and shown his work. Sabellian just flies in from veritable exile in Outland and expects to be handed the keys to the kingdom, sitting on his mostly unobservable laurels and demanding respect.

This is beyond the notion that I simply don't trust him, either.

I'm glad it's not just me. Wrathion definitely has smugness but I feel like it's rarely spiteful nowadays.

Sabellian just coming in and basically showboating just to one up Wrathion was really weird for a character who's trying to claim to be more mature.

[Aucald]

I'm glad it's not just me. Wrathion definitely has smugness but I feel like it's rarely spiteful nowadays.

Sabellian just coming in and basically showboating just to one up Wrathion was really weird for a character who's trying to claim to be more mature.

I think Sabellian's establishing moment in DF is when Wrathion is busy actually trying to restore the Black Oathstone, Sabellian just makes for the throne room of the Obsidian Sanctum and claims it as his own. Not to mention that before even that, Wrathion is ferrying us around and aiding in killing the elite Djaradin attackers, while Sabellian is just relaxing at a choke-point and keeping mooks bottled up.

I do really like the two of them sniping and snarking at one another, and I think they make great mutual foils. But when it comes to the future Aspect of the Black Dragonflight, I favor Wrathion over Sabellian. Actually, I'd say Ebyssian is probably the best pick of all, but he apparently has no interest in the job.

[Xilurm]

I'd say the Alliance is currently in good hands with Turalyon. He seems to reflect older depictions of the Alliance well—resolute and firm in his commitments, albeit sometimes in excess, and righteous, for better or worse. I think he will make for a very good long-term leader for the Alliance, and I do think it's a shame that the Horde never really got a leader of a similarly faction-reflective character.

And they never will, not with that "council shenanigans going on".

Honestly if I wanted to enjoy democracy I'd just not play wow and go out irl.

Atleast the Alliance hasn't been "counceled" yet.

[Jester Joe]

I think Sabellian's establishing moment in DF is when Wrathion is busy actually trying to restore the Black Oathstone, Sabellian just makes for the throne room of the Obsidian Sanctum and claims it as his own. Not to mention that before even that, Wrathion is ferrying us around and aiding in killing the elite Djaradin attackers, while Sabellian is just relaxing at a choke-point and keeping mooks bottled up.

I do really like the two of them sniping and snarking at one another, and I think they make great mutual foils. But when it comes to the future Aspect of the Black Dragonflight, I favor Wrathion over Sabellian. Actually, I'd say Ebyssian is probably the best pick of all, but he apparently has no interest in the job.

I don't mind them snarking at each other, yeah. It works and it makes it feel more natural, but to me the part where they're ferrying the eggs and Wrathions like, "We should get them there faster!" and Sabellian is just like, "Wow don't you even care about the eggs?!" meanwhile he could have just straight up told Wrathion the plan instead, or just asked him to trust him for a moment. That was the showboating moment to me, the rest as you said is probably more offensive admittedly though.

I feel like Ebyssian would lean Wrathion anyway too, because at the end of the day, Sabellian ran from the corruption it would seem, while Wrathion bunked down and found a cure to save Ebyssian.

[Aucald]

I don't mind them snarking at each other, yeah. It works and it makes it feel more natural, but to me the part where they're ferrying the eggs and Wrathions like, "We should get them there faster!" and Sabellian is just like, "Wow don't you even care about the eggs?!" meanwhile he could have just straight up told Wrathion the plan instead, or just asked him to trust him for a moment. That was the showboating moment to me, the rest as you said is probably more offensive admittedly though.

I feel like Ebyssian would lean Wrathion anyway too, because at the end of the day, Sabellian ran from the corruption it would seem, while Wrathion bunked down and found a cure to save Ebyssian.

Agreed on the transit of the eggs part as well - when Sabellian does his little magician's flourish after revealing the deception I was kind of wondering why he didn't just tell Wrathion the plan while they were en route, but I figured he was pointedly trying to one-up Wrathion and impress Alexstrasza in the process to get her tacit blessing, which she wonderfully turns down when she accepts the eggs and tells Sabellian to beat it. The fact that Alexstrasza doesn't trust Sabellian as far as she could throw him speaks volumes for his character as well.

As for Ebyssian stumping for Wrathion, I'd probably say he's biased in that regard given all that Wrathion did to save him from corruption in BfA. Understandably so, of course, but not really an impartial vote all considered.