Dragonflight 10.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Trazzle]

Curious thing to find some Azurite in this weeks vault. Wonder if it’ll reenter the narrative in some way.

[Alanar]

While yeah, many champions do different things, the main ordeal is that we, as the players, are canonical to the events of the raids and whatnot, and while not EVERY champion may be the same, there is 100% at least 1 guy that's canonically been there since Classic lmaooo

A lot of the time, we are the same guys, tho sometimes there are differences

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Her plans were ass bro lmaooo

She survived in the end, guess she had the last laugh. Good one.

[Nymrohd]

She survived in the end, guess she had the last laugh. Good one.

Plus she had one of the few boss encounters where we actually lost. Sure we beat her but her goal for that encounter was complete first like the dragonchicken this patch.

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I feel that the latter observation is more likely—I don't think making her into a villainous Mary Sue, whose capacities are so extensive that it's impossible to really consider her a villain, would do any good. I prefer Azshara as something of an exceptionally powerful cult leader or charismatic despot. Although she's certainly extraordinarily powerful, she's still ultimately a fairly petty person whose primary motivation is satisfying her own narcissistic tendencies. She was never really a good leader, just an exceptionally inspiring one. Think of Adolf Hitler—his leadership wasn't actually exceptionally competent, and much of what he did to reinvigorate Germany was really predicated on a giant Ponzi Scheme. However, his charisma was such that he was able to override people's common sense and intelligence, reducing them to frothing, obsessive hordes devoid of basic morality.

Ultimately, I don't think she should be a good leader, or even have a sustainable or smart idea about what the future should be like. What she should be is someone who is disturbingly inspiring, and capable of producing results in leading people to abandon their better sense. She's a demagogue, albeit one whose malfeasance is bolstered by magic and real talent.

I think she values having a succesful and happy empire not because she cares about people but because it is part of her vanity. There is no benevolence in her actions but Azshara does not want to rule over hovels from a palace, she wants to rule over palaces from a grander palace. She did not seem impressed by N'zoth after all, she was impressed by Nyalotha.

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Bravo to Blizzard on the timing between 10.0.7 and 10.1. 6 weeks between the two patches. 6 Zskera Vaults to explore. 6 sets of "new quests" each week on the Forbidden Reach. The new quests this week (saving Dracthyr) are interesting. Really excited for the remaining week's content leading into 10.1!

Yeah the pacing is great. My one concern is I am not sure I'll reach exalted with the dracthyr faction on time.

[Alanar]

Plus she had one of the few boss encounters where we actually lost. Sure we beat her but her goal for that encounter was complete.

This is actually true and it was clear from the get go, she didnt care for n zoth. If she just had died(she gave him 2 options), N zoth would probably be still stuck there. Sure, its hard to know if her plans on the true throne was something she came up afterwards or before all of this, but I cant say her plans sucked. Both denathrius and Azshara completed their tasks and both survived.

[Le Conceptuel]

I think she values having a succesful and happy empire not because she cares about people but because it is part of her vanity. There is no benevolence in her actions but Azshara does not want to rule over hovels from a palace, she wants to rule over palaces from a grander palace. She did not seem impressed by N'zoth after all, she was impressed by Nyalotha.

I suppose that's not strictly a poor analysis from a purely Watsonian perspective—if I were to be wholly honest, my concern teeters somewhat on the purely Doylist. I do fear that leaning too hard into the idea of some kind of enlightened self-interest diminishing any utilitarian outcome for her villainy would be a very quick way to lob an otherwise-tolerable character into a growing bin of villainous Mary Sue-type characters alongside Sylvanas. I could certainly see the benefit in establishing that her regime has its benefits, drawing from how authoritarian regimes are uniquely inclined to get things done and evil empires are uniquely inclined to bring a great deal of innovation in their conquests, and I think that much could be plenty interesting to emphasize to avoid her from going in the opposite direction and becoming a one-dimensional conqueror with a slightly more entertaining personality than most, but I definitely think that getting too carried away with making her rule out to have too many benefits, it would become very insufferable very quickly.

[Nymrohd]

This is actually true and it was clear from the get go, she didnt care for n zoth. If she just had died(she gave him 2 options), N zoth would probably be still stuck there. Sure, its hard to know if her plans on the true throne was something she came up afterwards or before all of this, but I cant say her plans sucked. Both denathrius and Azshara completed their tasks and both survived.

See we get all this cosmology stuff and my reaction is, sure those who had both time and power would have investigated the nature of reality, if not from scientific and philosophical curiosity then at least out of self-interest. I assume the Pantheon knows about the First Ones; they gained entry into a Zereth and possibly others as well given their powers often cross beyond Order into Light and Life. But how about mortals like Azshara and the Eredar Triumvirate? Azshara spend centuries studying the arcane with one of the greatest sources of power at her disposal and then spend even more time in contact with an Old God; would she have not sought to learn more about reality? We see from Zovaal that what it takes to breach things is simply power; while he needed the Sigils to enter Zereth Mortis physically and reach the Sepulcher, he very much managed to tear parts of Zereth Mortis and draw them to him. So my assumption is that while Azshara is unlikely to have the full picture, she still has a much more complete picture than we do and when she references a true throne of power, it would be on a cosmic scale. Imo it would be one of three things:
a) as many have said, finding a way to replace/subsume Azeroth herself. She has had the most time and the best access to the World Soul and if Azeroth is really the key to reality, ultimate power comes from taking control of her like everyone else is trying.
b) having an incomplete understanding of the world, she may be seeking control of one of the Zereths, likely Ordos. We saw what Zovaal could do with the Sepulcher, I'd assume each Zereth has the ability to change the cosmos on a fundamental way. It makes sense for Death to be able to end the cycle and begin a new one but other Zereths could do different things; maybe Ordos can change the flow of time or change the basic rules of the physical universe while Lumen might be able to simply alter truth.
c) have a more complete understanding and seek a way to reach the First Ones

We saw in Zereth Mortis that Danuser is fumbling to replicate at least the writing style if not the essence of the Elder Scrolls Monomyth. Azshara would most definitely be the one trying to reach the Tower through Violence like Vivec did.

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I suppose that's not strictly a poor analysis from a purely Watsonian perspective—if I were to be wholly honest, my concern teeters somewhat on the purely Doylist. I do fear that leaning too hard into the idea of some kind of enlightened self-interest diminishing any utilitarian outcome for her villainy would be a very quick way to lob an otherwise-tolerable character into a growing bin of villainous Mary Sue-type characters alongside Sylvanas. I could certainly see the benefit in establishing that her regime has its benefits, drawing from how authoritarian regimes are uniquely inclined to get things done and evil empires are uniquely inclined to bring a great deal of innovation in their conquests, and I think that much could be plenty interesting to emphasize to avoid her from going in the opposite direction and becoming a one-dimensional conqueror with a slightly more entertaining personality than most, but I definitely think that getting too carried away with making her rule out to have too many benefits, it would become very insufferable very quickly.

No benefits would matter because it would ultimately be an autocracy and the deeply individualistic, very Western perception of society of the devs would paint any autocracy, no matter how benign, in the darkest of lights simply by unconscious bias.
Rather I think that Azshara's focus on magnificence lends to her aesthetic and given this is a visual medium, it improves her impact on the game rather than the story. My main complaint about 8.2 was that it was a very poor showing of both Nazjatar and Zin'ashari. We saw the latter in the Azshara short and it was gorgeous. Nazjatar absolutely had potential to be gorgeous if we actually saw any of it; you catch glimpses of the living space of the naga while swiming to the raid but otherwise we just see an outpost at the edge of their domain. We never even get a proper panoramic shot. Imo Mechagon should have been in 8.1 and Nazjatar should have had both a raid and a dungeon with the dungeon being in the underwater city itself.

[Le Conceptuel]

No benefits would matter because it would ultimately be an autocracy and the deeply individualistic, very Western perception of society of the devs would paint any autocracy, no matter how benign, in the darkest of lights simply by unconscious bias.
Rather I think that Azshara's focus on magnificence lends to her aesthetic and given this is a visual medium, it improves her impact on the game rather than the story. My main complaint about 8.2 was that it was a very poor showing of both Nazjatar and Zin'ashari. We saw the latter in the Azshara short and it was gorgeous. Nazjatar absolutely had potential to be gorgeous if we actually saw any of it; you catch glimpses of the living space of the naga while swiming to the raid but otherwise we just see an outpost at the edge of their domain. We never even get a proper panoramic shot. Imo Mechagon should have been in 8.1 and Nazjatar should have had both a raid and a dungeon with the dungeon being in the underwater city itself.

I disagree on the first part—I think that's sort of a nonsensical approach too reliant on the audience's own ignorance as to why they oppose something bad rather than prompting sincere opposition. It's sort of a very underhanded, visceral way of getting attention from the audience without having to try much.

Second part, I agree on that. It definitely still ought to be visually-magnificent, and Nazjatar was terribly underwhelming. Nazjatar ought've been far more extraordinary.

[Nymrohd]

I disagree on the first part—I think that's sort of a nonsensical approach too reliant on the audience's own ignorance as to why they oppose something bad rather than prompting sincere opposition. It's sort of a very underhanded, visceral way of getting attention from the audience without having to try much.

Bastion narrative straight up whipped it out and starting pissing on the Tao. So yeah, it might be nonsense but it happened already.

[Lahis]

Speak of the devil! Looks like data miners found some Azshara-adjacent hints: https://imgur.io/XCHUYUi

I can see the image without opening the link.

[Nymrohd]

I can see the image without opening the link.

It's probably is the Azshara fake expansion opening screen but it could also be Azshara ahegao.

[Pheraz]

It is a fact that N'Zoth knew Azshara plotted behind his back as he tells the player character in his fight:




Azshara was foolish, how could she possibly think that she could deceive an Old God? Is she stupid? The Old Gods are more ancient than Azshara's entire species. They are biologically smarter than Azshara, of course she's not going to outsmart the Old GOd.

Azshara was arrogant, she revealed her intentions to N'Zoth during their first meeting, when she made it clear that she would not be submissive. That's all N'Zoth needed to understand Azshara would never truly be loyal, and so it was child's play to expose her treachery. Had Azshara been smarter, she would have submitted herself to N'Zoth, to reduce the chances of being exposed. Azshara was short-sighted, a smarter character would have feigned servitude, Azshara never did. First of all, she made it clear to N'Zoth that she wanted to rule his empire. Then, She kept taunting and mocking him with a smug face even in the 8.2 trailer; but by the end of that patch, N'Zoth made her drop her smug really quickly:




People here who think Azshara will be successful are not paying attention. Azshara and Denathrius are funny, but they are destined to lose. Denathrius failed everything, he lost everything.

1) He lost his realm.
2) He lost his body.
3) He was humiliated and mocked.
4) His allies in the Maw did not give a shit about rescuing him and considered him a mere pawn.

Denathrius lost everything, Azshara will lose everything too, if she continues to play with powers she does not understand.

Uhm, this is kind of the whole point of her character.... She made it pretty clear that she is the Queen and will never kneel or bow before anyone else.
Because she and her highborne thought they are superior to everyone else. In her megalomania she didn't see that she doomed herself and her people. Why am I explaining this? xD I guess you've read all the wow lore yourself....

[Fahrad Wagner]

Speak of the devil! Looks like data miners found some Azshara-adjacent hints: https://imgur.io/XCHUYUi

I love that I know recognise that link from a mile away. Nice try, better luck next time

[Kilpi]

Now with two Classic servers, I don't think preserving the world is an issue anymore. They could revamp the whole bloody thing.

I don't quite understand why the game should ALWAYS preserver EVERYTHING added to the game. I really think WoW could use a complete revamp of EK/Kalimdor without needing to preserve all the old zones and content in them. Also then start keeping the story in those two continents and updating the zones in those two continents as story requires.

[Nymrohd]

I don't quite understand why the game should ALWAYS preserver EVERYTHING added to the game. I really think WoW could use a complete revamp of EK/Kalimdor without needing to preserve all the old zones and content in them. Also then start keeping the story in those two continents and updating the zones in those two continents as story requires.

I do think you should be able to see the story the game has been saying from start to finish without major losses. I still don't get why certain features were removed.

[Zardas]

I don't quite understand why the game should ALWAYS preserver EVERYTHING added to the game. I really think WoW could use a complete revamp of EK/Kalimdor without needing to preserve all the old zones and content in them. Also then start keeping the story in those two continents and updating the zones in those two continents as story requires.

Because it's always better to be able to play the whole game. It's already ridiculous that the one who wants to play the story completely must play classic after Warcraft 3 before switching to retail.

[Hitei]

I don't quite understand why the game should ALWAYS preserver EVERYTHING added to the game. I really think WoW could use a complete revamp of EK/Kalimdor without needing to preserve all the old zones and content in them. Also then start keeping the story in those two continents and updating the zones in those two continents as story requires.

Because unlike say, a movie, book or traditional sequel based video game, an ongoing service-based game exists in a single current state (unless you have that preservation).

What I mean by that is that, for example:
You can go and buy and play Resident Evil 8. And then, if you want to, you can go and play 1-7 and the side games.
You can see Joker, and then if you want to see what other takes there have been on the character, you can go and watch the Dark Knight trilogy, or Batman 1989, or read comics.

But when wow "updates" a thing (at least before Zidormi began being used for phases, and Classic was released) that update wholly replaced the thing in game. You couldn't go back and play vanilla, short of private servers, because it no longer existed in playable form. It creates a disconnect, a feeling of "well I sure wish I could have done that" that doesn't really exist in most media forms, because you can always go read previous books, or watch old TV shows, or play old games.

Preserving the content allows it to continue to be experienced instead of wholly replacing it.

[Varodoc]

Plus she had one of the few boss encounters where we actually lost. Sure we beat her but her goal for that encounter was complete first like the dragonchicken this patch.

Except, you know, that her plan to backstab N'Zoth completely backfired in her face. Never mind the fact that all evidence leads to N'Zoth wanting to be stabbed, so Azshara would have doubly failed.

So the original poster was factually correct in saying that the one plan Azshara concocted was ass.

Furthermore, her success in the Eternal Palace raid is testament to N'Zoth's cunning, not Azshara's. Azshara did absolutely nothing but follow what she was told. It is N'Zoth who designed the master plan to be freed by using the Heart of Azeroth, as his spawn Il'gynoth referenced in multiple ways in the Emerald Nightmare.

Her heart is a crater, and we have filled it.

From the earth, he draws strength. Our earth. Our strength.

Its surface blazes bright, masking shadows below.

And lastly, and most prominently:

The king of diamonds has been made a pawn.

Which was echoed by Azshara herself in the raid.

Azshara literally did not do anything in the raid but follow what N'Zoth told her to do. So the entire ending of Eternal Palace raid is not a testament to Azshara's intelligence, but to N'Zoth's, as everything went according to N'Zoth's design and carefully laid-out plans.

As Azshara's plan was to free N'Zoth and then stab him, but she pathetically failed. While N'Zoth's plan was simply to be freed, and he succeeded. The Eternal Palace is N'ZOTH'S triumph, absolutely not Azshara's.

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Uhm, this is kind of the whole point of her character.... She made it pretty clear that she is the Queen and will never kneel or bow before anyone else.
Because she and her highborne thought they are superior to everyone else. In her megalomania she didn't see that she doomed herself and her people. Why am I explaining this? xD I guess you've read all the wow lore yourself....

Indeed, I have, so I really didn't need this post.

[RahEndymion]

Indeed, I have, so I really didn't need this post.

For someone so often wrong you deal in an awful lot of absolutes.

'Her plan to stab N'zoth completely backfired in her face' - Did it? N'Zoth got stabbed, Azshara is free, Xal is in the wind. For all you know, Azshara's greatest deception may have been her betrayal to N'zoth.

You then proceed to use N'zoths manipulation of Magni as proof of.. well I'm not really sure? Everyone knows N'zoth manipulated magni, in order for Azshara to even attempt to stab him that part of the plan had to be mutual at the least.

'All evidence leads to N'zoth wanting to be stabbed' - That's quite literally a mixture of headcanon and copium. There is absolutely no evidence in the game that N'zoth wanted to be stabbed. Do I think it would make sense for the master of manipulation to engineer his own downfall? Absolutely. But other than one quote from Xal (or Ilgynoth?) re: N'zoth winning even in defeat; there is no objective indication that this is true yet. Stop masquerading your assumptions as fact it's silly.

You have a serious case of confirmation bias. The logic you use can only work in absolute isolation.

Stop overcompensating lol.

[Hellspawn]

Azshara was just lucky that we showed up in N'zoths lair and rescued her. Her arrogance is surely her biggest weakpoint.
That does not really change that she is the most powerful mage we know and we enabled this way to follow what ever plan she had. I don't think she got any loyality to N'Zoth, thats would not fit her character at all.

If N'Zoth let us stab him is something we have to see if it is true, to me it does not seem that unlikely.

[Varodoc]

Her plan to stab N'zoth completely backfired in her face' - Did it?

Yes, given how she wanted to be the one to backstab him BEFORE he could regain power and she failed.

Because of her failure, N'Zoth returned to Ny'alotha, re-established his power, and almost succeeded in corrupting the World-Soul. It took a Titanic Engin's full power to fix Azshara's mess.

Azshara's greatest deception may have been her betrayal to N'zoth.

If that's her greatest "deception" then that's very sad, because she didn't hide anything from N'Zoth as he had discovered her treachery. I already proved this by quoting the exact dialogue from the raid, why are people here still under the assumption that N'Zoth didn't discover Azshara's betrayal? In 2023?

Did you guys never do the N'Zoth raid encounter, not even in LFR? There's an entire phase where N'Zoth literally shows the player that he was aware of Azshara's betrayal, she didn't deceive shit.

You then proceed to use N'zoths manipulation of Magni as proof of.. well I'm not really sure? Everyone knows N'zoth manipulated magni, in order for Azshara to even attempt to stab him that part of the plan had to be mutual at the least.

Did you not read My post? I already told you that it's proof of N'Zoth's intelligence.

'All evidence leads to N'zoth wanting to be stabbed' - That's quite literally a mixture of headcanon and copium. There is absolutely no evidence in the game that N'zoth wanted to be stabbed

Actually, there is, since N'Zoth explicitly wanted to keep the empty blade as part of his bargain with Xal'atath, and then he let Azshara keep the blade even after having her imprisoned and tortured by his servants, despite knowing her treacherous plan.

If N'Zoth didn't want to be stabbed, then explain why:

1) He explicitly demanded the empty blade from Xal'atath (despite knowing that it can be used to seal powerful Void beings, like an Old God);

2) He let Azshara, under prison and torture, keep the blade (despite knowing that Azshara wanted to stab him with it).

But other than one quote from Xal (or Ilgynoth?) re: N'zoth winning even in defeat; there is no objective indication that this is true yet. Stop masquerading your assumptions as fact it's silly.

You have a serious case of confirmation bias. The logic you use can only work in absolute isolation.

Stop overcompensating lol.

All of this is irrelevant to the simple fact (easily verifiable in the source material) that Azshara did nothing but play her role in N'Zoth's grand scheme and she failed in her stated goal to stab N'Zoth herself.

Azshara literally admits that her plans failed:

Queen Azshara says: I would have driven this blade into his foul heart myself... had you not disrupted my plans.

Azshara's plan was to stab N'Zoth right after freeing him, before he could re-establish his power in Ny'alotha. She failed pathetically as she was humiliated and almost slain by the players. While N'Zoth returned to Ny'alotha unscathed (unlike what Azshara wanted). It's simple.