Dragonflight 10.X Patches & World Soul Saga Speculation Thread

[Le Conceptuel]

Remember the Wrathion fight in Ny'alotha? That's the level of messing with your perception we're looking at.

Profoundly visceral visual and auditory hallucinations work wonders, and are another instance of the Void's influence working well. The issue is that it has thus far only been used twice to mislead us, and only once in any kind of narratively-relevant capacity when Wrathion and Sabellian were misled in Aberrus. Otherwise, this has hardly been executed to its fullest potential; there have been no efforts to mislead us in the long-term, and this capacity has not been used to wreak uncertainty. If it were employed in the right places, at the right times, at unpredictable intervals, it could certainly be a far more effective representation of what we're told the Void does to you than a few ominous portents in purple text.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Profoundly visceral visual and auditory hallucinations work wonders, and are another instance of the Void's influence working well. The issue is that it has thus far only been used twice to mislead us, and only once in any kind of narratively-relevant capacity when Wrathion and Sabellian were misled in Aberrus. Otherwise, this has hardly been executed to its fullest potential; there have been no efforts to mislead us in the long-term, and this capacity has not been used to wreak uncertainty. If it were employed in the right places, at the right times, at unpredictable intervals, it could certainly be a far more effective representation of what we're told the Void does to you than a few ominous portents in purple text.

Thats cause you think it wouldn't bother you. It would. Any annoying person in your life just imagine them as flesh eldrich monsters who can now whisper you about shit you don't even know. Its worse for people who are vulnerable(Say a Human who lost his family recently to the Shadowlands stuff and is alone. Perfect for Old God Shennigans).

[huth]

Profoundly visceral visual and auditory hallucinations work wonders, and are another instance of the Void's influence working well. The issue is that it has thus far only been used twice to mislead us, and only once in any kind of narratively-relevant capacity when Wrathion and Sabellian were misled in Aberrus. Otherwise, this has hardly been executed to its fullest potential; there have been no efforts to mislead us in the long-term, and this capacity has not been used to wreak uncertainty. If it were employed in the right places, at the right times, at unpredictable intervals, it could certainly be a far more effective representation of what we're told the Void does to you than a few ominous portents in purple text.

Because we tend to deal with the source in short order and don't really give them the opportunity. What you're missing here is that we have never really been the target of those attacks in any meaningful capacity, so our experience is not relevant.

Thats cause you think it wouldn't bother you. It would. Any annoying person in your life just imagine them as flesh eldrich monsters who can now whisper you about shit you don't even know. Its worse for people who are vulnerable(Say a Human who lost his family recently to the Shadowlands stuff and is alone. Perfect for Old God Shennigans).

Repeating the same nonsense over and over is a tried and true manipulation technique for a reason, commonly employed in abusive relationships the world over.

[Berkilak]

Profoundly visceral visual and auditory hallucinations work wonders, and are another instance of the Void's influence working well. The issue is that it has thus far only been used twice to mislead us, and only once in any kind of narratively-relevant capacity when Wrathion and Sabellian were misled in Aberrus. Otherwise, this has hardly been executed to its fullest potential; there have been no efforts to mislead us in the long-term, and this capacity has not been used to wreak uncertainty. If it were employed in the right places, at the right times, at unpredictable intervals, it could certainly be a far more effective representation of what we're told the Void does to you than a few ominous portents in purple text.

You can only allude to cosmic horror for it to be effective as a concept. The moment the author or artist details it is the moment that they renders the unknowable incomprehensible as mundane and trite.

[Le Conceptuel]

You can only allude to cosmic horror for it to be effective as a concept. The moment the author or artist details it is the moment that they renders the unknowable incomprehensible as mundane and trite.

I don't quite find that to be the case. The fashion in which Lovecraft handled it often bordered on fantasy in some stories and was sometimes not very subtle, such as in Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath. More recently, one can cite Bloodborne as an example of an interesting piece of fiction with at least aesthetic Cosmic Horror elements that functions perfectly fine with all of its features wholly in the spotlight.

[Le Conceptuel]

What are we arguing about now? Is someone saying the Old Gods lost their Cosmic Horror nature? Or??? Cause that's a weird argument if I've ever heard one.

What I'm saying is their execution has been underwhelming thus far. Really, the only one I think worked exceptionally well was Y'Shaarj.

[Ateo]

I'm getting the feeling this user has no personal experience with people succumbing to mental illness such as schizophrenia which is what the basis of all cosmic horror is.

The fear of losing yourself to the voices.

[Nymrohd]

I'm getting the feeling you never had to deal with incessant nagging.

My mother is really an Old God. I knew it. Do the Void Lords also want grandkids?

[Hitei]

I don't quite find that to be the case. The fashion in which Lovecraft handled it often bordered on fantasy in some stories and was sometimes not very subtle, such as in Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath. More recently, one can cite Bloodborne as an example of an interesting piece of fiction with at least aesthetic Cosmic Horror elements that functions perfectly fine with all of its features wholly in the spotlight.

But Bloodborne doesn't actually do cosmic horror. I find it really odd you'd nitpick WoW's depiction as not manifesting Cosmic Horror's mind-warping incomprehensibility poorly but then in the same argument praise BB for just using the genre as an aesthetic flair.

If anything you're sort of just reinforcing Berkilak's point: that actually rendering the unknowable completely defeats the purpose. The cosmic entities in Bloodborne are glorified invisible monsters, and they only work in the true cosmic horror sense when they are invisible and you are powerless to do anything. When you're going around just hacking them to pieces like they're nothing but big animals it totally fails to actually represent the nature of cosmic horror.

The fashion in which Lovecraft handled it was to basically talk around it, to focus on describing how it wasn't describable. Writing about how things are at "the wrong angle" or musical chords are "otherworldly", to just describe reactions or feelings to the thing instead of the thing itself. But this doesn't really work in video game format, hence Bloodborne just having weird looking monsters that are invisible until they aren't. It's just smoke and mirrors and it falls apart when it's looked at closely. When you realize that the fact that you can see the Great Ones, and that they are just long-armed tentacle things, you also then realize that the logic of them being imperceptible without insight makes no sense at all. There's nothing incomprehensible about them, they are odd looking in the way any generic monster is odd looking and there's no real logical reason why they should've been invisible for being so mind-boggling, because they aren't mind-boggling at all.

Likewise, it is physically impossible to present Old God whispering in a fashion similar to the experience. It is an overwhelming, incomprehensible sensory experience that can't be replicated in a real capcity, because to begin with human sensory experience is a binary. Either a form of electromagnetic radiation falls on the visible spectrum or it is invisible to the human eye. There is no actual visible wild and crazy color beyond human comprehension that will make people go insane, because if it's visible that means its in the limited range of perceptibility.

The closest you can get is to attempt to overload sensory experience instead. Like Langford's Basilisk, or Vantablack, or an audio file which is just a hundred audio clips played at once at full volume. Old God whispers are this. You can't possibly depict continuous, mind-shattering whispers and glimpses of the future that eventually lead, not to tricking a person into thinking the Old gods are good guys or not attempting to manipulate them but instead, to the conclusion that either the person can handle and control the Void/corruption, or that the end is inevitable anyway and there's no choice or its the easiest option. So your two options are to either do continuous half-heart whisperings that annoy the player enough that people just mute or complain until its removed; or to go with the much more enjoyable user experience friendly conceit and just have regular ominous or self-assured occasional whispers as depicted in game.

Personally I think it works fine, as well as any depiction is going to, because they're all just conceits for the fact that an indescribable thing is by definition indescribable.

Also, with regards to persuasion: I think you misunderstand the Void's M.O. It's not a politician or a slimy businessman. It's not lying to try and trick you into taking its side. It exists in a metaphysical state beyond time or possibility. It doesn't need to convince you of anything the same way that it doesn't need to convince the Naaru to fall into Void. The Light is the side that wants to masquerade as righteous and recruit through propaganda. The Void already knows where everything is or can go and is just laughing the whole ride there. I would argue that N'zoth's depiction is the strongest of the primary four Old Gods, because if anything we still aren't quite sure what his real plan is or was, or if it worked, or if he's really dead or if the entire thing was a set up. Did it matter if he kept pointing out he was manipulating us if in the end, for the sake of everyone not dying, we still had to do potentially exactly what he wanted? He wasn't trying to convert us to the church of the Void, he was mocking struggle in the face of inevitability.

Deathwing's final surrender to the Old Gods wasn't about tricks. It was that from the start there was always going to come a time where he desperately needed/wanted that extra power and was going to take the deal. Like Azshara: Did it matter that N'zoth obviously had his own agenda in mind when the options were take the deal or be crushed to death and drown at the bottom of the sea? Alleria knows as well as anyone that the Void is a double-edged sword that requires constant vigilance walking on the knife edge, but she's still gone with it because the other options were losing to the Legion and letting the people she loves die.

[Shadowferal]

The big problem with cosmic horror has always been making something unknowable...relatable. And on that regard the horror can hit you with a double whammy; the voices were never from an external source, it was all from me...or were they? Was I just a puppet, or a plaything...will I ever know the truth? The Hell of uncertainty.

[Nymrohd]

I'd say, there are things you can do to create the feeling of Lovecraftian horror (which is not all cosmic horror; body horror and paranoia are much more common) in video games but I am unsure they would work in Warcraft. Take the example of Samuel Williams in Stormsong Valley back in BfA; in a more realistic aesthetic and a different RPG format that story absolutely could work. But the cartoony aesthetic of WoW may work for so much but it absolutely dampens the body horror of what is happening to him (just as it did to places like Scholomance that would have definitely not been suitable for children in a more realistic art style). And the fact that we are in an MMO format which means you can always just drop the quest and do it later and some random dude in a clown suit might be jumping around you while you are questing keeps the immersion minimal.

[Le Conceptuel]

that actually rendering the unknowable completely defeats the purpose. The cosmic entities in Bloodborne are glorified invisible monsters, and they only work in the true cosmic horror sense when they are invisible and you are powerless to do anything. When you're going around just hacking them to pieces like they're nothing but big animals it totally fails to actually represent the nature of cosmic horror.

The fashion in which Lovecraft handled it was to basically talk around it, to focus on describing how it wasn't describable. Writing about how things are at "the wrong angle" or musical chords are "otherworldly", to just describe reactions or feelings to the thing instead of the thing itself. . . (w)hen you realize that the fact that you can see the Great Ones, and that they are just long-armed tentacle things, you also then realize that the logic of them being imperceptible without insight makes no sense at all. There's nothing incomprehensible about them, they are odd looking in the way any generic monster is odd looking and there's no real logical reason why they should've been invisible for being so mind-boggling, because they aren't mind-boggling at all.

( . . . )

Likewise, it is physically impossible to present Old God whispering in a fashion similar to the experience. It is an overwhelming, incomprehensible sensory experience that can't be replicated in a real capcity, because to begin with human sensory experience is a binary. Either a form of electromagnetic radiation falls on the visible spectrum or it is invisible to the human eye. There is no actual visible wild and crazy color beyond human comprehension that will make people go insane, because if it's visible that means its in the limited range of perceptibility.

I'd say, there are things you can do to create the feeling of Lovecraftian horror (which is not all cosmic horror; body horror and paranoia are much more common) in video games but I am unsure they would work in Warcraft. Take the example of Samuel Williams in Stormsong Valley back in BfA; in a more realistic aesthetic and a different RPG format that story absolutely could work. But the cartoony aesthetic of WoW may work for so much but it absolutely dampens the body horror of what is happening to him

The big problem with cosmic horror has always been making something unknowable...relatable.

But that's the thing: you're focusing too much on the conceit that the monster really is meant to be unknowable, and treating that as the be-all end-all of Cosmic Horror; but it isn't. The horror is in the unknown, certainly, but it's neither the ultimate core of the genre on the Doylist level nor the thing that drives one mad on a Watsonian level. Madness does not come from looking at a really ugly fish-monster and somehow concluding that mankind is ultimately minuscule and irrelevant because there are really ugly fish monsters; madness comes from gradually realizing how much you appreciate their art, how much you're starting to look like one, and ultimately that you could trace your lineage back to one of them. That you have actually been a fish-baby all along is what drives you insane because it forces you to fundamentally reevaluate your understanding of reality. In short, as I poked at earlier, it is the revelation, not the thing that sparks it, that drives you insane. Certainly, Lovecraft himself did wank his creations as ambiguously "blasphemous" or "indescribable", but that was never the core intention of his work; this was merely the best undertaking of a man to frame something as strange and alien who could only describe penguins as "grotesque". The true undertaking could be argued to be to demonstrate precisely how Lovecraft felt about the implications of the advances of science at the time, and how he felt in the presence of anything alien to himself; he was taken into what he considered to be the final instar of the Enlightenment: the horrible, soul-scorching daybreak about to come upon our placid isle of ignorance.

It is easy to get caught up in the surface-level horror and fail to realize the real foundation of Cosmic Horror, which I think Bloodborne did get right. Sure, you look at Amygdala, and you're probably underwhelmed. It's a fairly ugly stick bug that dies near-effortlessly. However, it's not the ugly stick bug that drives you insane: it's the revelations around the Great Ones. Insight isn't just "lol, I know evil monsters exist now"; Insight is the understanding that mounts as you come to realize that the Great Ones are not some set of nebulous, incomparable entities, but something like what you could be, if you only evolved more. You are not merely perceiving weird and ugly monsters, but you are starting to realize the scope of humanity's future, and the true nature of the cosmos and evolution in itself. If it's not that revelation, then it's the desperation to reach that state, or the realizations you gain about how much you really, really like killing things from the hunt, or the life-shattering things that occur as a side-effect of any one or combination of the aforementioned elements that dooms you to insanity. To me, why Bloodborne worked is because it didn't undertake to somehow render the Great Ones as truly sanity-rending in themselves, and instead focused on the implications of their existence and the revelations that would come with these implications as the catalyst for insanity.

In short, Cosmic Horror isn't mainly horror with "cosmic" as an adjective. It is more accurate phrased "the cosmos, and the horrors that come with it". It is the "horror", not the "cosmic", which is secondary.

One interesting element where both Bloodborne and Lovecraft converge is also in that the revelations, though life-changing, are not always irrevocably devastating in the end, which sort of ties together revelation as the central theme of all Cosmic Horror. In this respect, I think it also relates to my aforementioned portrayal of Lovecraft as using his writing as a means of providing a window into his warped perception of reality. In Bloodborne and throughout the Yog-Sothoth Cycle, the protagonist grows to become less horrified by and more accustomed to what they're seeing, sort of cementing the true nature of the horror as not being the ugly and unfathomable monsters, but the nature of the cosmos itself; just as Lovecraft conquered his horrors by learning to remain defiant in the face of his fear,—how he came to decry at least some of his prior racism, how he came to grow as a person to some extent, how he began to write the Nightgaunts, creatures from his childhood nightmares, in accord with the protagonist in Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath—our protagonists find solace in accepting the revelations instead of denying them. In a way, the very fact that the Black Empire is founded on deception is precisely a failure of Cosmic Horror because the foundation is that it is truth which drives you to the edge of madness, which is the very shore on which you either wallow in the safety of your makeshift idyll or set off towards the soul-shattering daybreak. The Hunter in Bloodborne, in what is arguably the best ending, does not merely kill their way through the horrors, but learns to become one of them and to accept,—and become,—the vanguard of mankind's ascension. Similarly, Randolph Carter may have once fainted in fear in the face of creatures much like the Nightgaunts and Ghouls he meets, yet comes to dwell among them happily, and even forge accords with them in the Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath. As Robert Olmstead learns of the horror of his ancestry, he finds a kind of solace in his madness, and well and truly comes to accept that he is truly W̶e̶l̶s̶h a Deep One, and is thus welcomed by the horrors from which he once cowered as one of their own.

Both sides of Cosmic Horror, in this respect, I don't think will manifest—though they theoretically could—in WoW because it requires the characters to be anything more than unthinking automata with no capacity for deeper philosophical thought. The cast in WoW are all written as vapid idiots; I don't mean this as an attack on the writers, but rather as a sort of expression of disappointment, because Danuser clearly can write characters thinking a bit more, as some of the in-universe philosophy in Shadowlands reveals. I don't particularly like it at all, but it shows the man isn't an idiot and is wholly capable of tackling these kinds of ideas. Yet, when our heroes are staring into the nexus of the crisis and origin of the storms, the unthinking, unfeeling automata may only blurt out a "oh boy oh boy! I sure hope Andy's okay!!" instead of daring to think for even a passing second about the implications of what they've seen. Similarly, the revelations that the Black Empire or the Void could offer are not truly explored as deeply as they could be, which is again disappointing because there is a foundation for it. There will neither be the soul-shuddering revelation nor the sanity-soothing miracle that comes from understanding and accepting what one wants to reject.

So what of it? What does a gradient force that devours destiny to weave a tapestry of all possibilities only seem to change perspectives through pandering to the observer? Why does nobody seem to consider that all the joys of consciousness, wisdom, and free will, and all the happy experiences they have had with exploring the world from the perspective of an animal with the world's most complex computer in their skulls, came not from the benevolent, earth-forging Titans, but Yogg-Saron and his ilk?

And why do they so rarely point this out?

N'Zoth ought to be enlightened, because this is his very nature he is talking about. Yet, the closest we ever get to discussing these kind of revelations is in a throwaway line from Il'gynoth! It's all about making blustering threats, empty promises, and other such generic dross. What is the revelation in that? How could there ever be earth-shattering truth in being told what you want to hear? I would remain as stable as I was before if I hear about how you totally made that dragon evil that one time. N'Zoth, and all the rest of the Black Empire except somewhat Y'Shaarj, C'Thun, and Il'gynoth (to varying degrees) are just generic fantasy baddies that look like squids; and this is hardly necessary for the genre. As I pointed out above with Bloodborne, the soul-shattering revelation can come just as well when you're cutting through big tentacle monsters. I used to be of the mind that being able to kill or perceive something precluded effective Cosmic Horror, or even the simulacra of the genre, but I realize only now precisely how wrong I was. It's absolutely possible to impart horrible revelations about the nature of reality, no matter the creature you use. You could only have a Nyarlathotep-esque "spookier human" character presenting the truth, and you could slit his throat the second after, but if the truth is weighty enough, the revelation sufficiently unprecedented, then you still have at least the slightest smidgen of true Cosmic Horror.

We ought to learn something from the Void that really does make us question what we know about the cosmos. We ought to stare into the abyss, and get to see it stare back at us with our own eyes. This is not only key to experiencing the horror, but to conquering it as well. Cosmic Horror is not the giant squid-thing telling you how hopeless it is. It is the giant squid-thing calmly telling you the truth in your friend's voice, and this is certainly something you could do in WoW. If anything, an open-world MMO would be perfect, especially with how obsessed the writing team has been with scattering around unsolvable puzzle pieces. Instead of wasting them on hyping up Danuser's six-pronged nonsense or the First Ones, or to retroactively foreshadow events that the writing team hasn't actually decided on yet, why not work in that direction?

Also, with regards to persuasion: I think you misunderstand the Void's M.O. It's not a politician or a slimy businessman. It's not lying to try and trick you into taking its side. It exists in a metaphysical state beyond time or possibility.

That's what it should be, yes. But that's not what we're shown; an impartial, alien entity does not speak about how it made the good dragon evil because it's so spooky and powerful, or how it's totally actually trying to save you from what's to come (in the next WoW expansion; preorder now!). What we actually get are overhyped baddies hardly more complex than the Jailer wearing big squids on their heads.

I would argue that N'zoth's depiction is the strongest of the primary four Old Gods, because if anything we still aren't quite sure what his real plan is or was, or if it worked, or if he's really dead or if the entire thing was a set up.

As with Cosmic Horror, excluding information alone does not an effective manipulator character make; just withholding information from the audience does nothing to induce a sense of credibility, especially when the very same uncertainty seems to exist in the writing room. It feels more to me like N'Zoth was unceremoniously killed off because the writers found themselves in a corner, and then they pressed the "but he might not actually be dead actually!" button when they realized how upset everybody was bound to be when the patch released.

Deathwing's final surrender to the Old Gods wasn't about tricks. It was that from the start there was always going to come a time where he desperately needed/wanted that extra power and was going to take the deal. Like Azshara: Did it matter that N'zoth obviously had his own agenda in mind when the options were take the deal or be crushed to death and drown at the bottom of the sea? Alleria knows as well as anyone that the Void is a double-edged sword that requires constant vigilance walking on the knife edge, but she's still gone with it because the other options were losing to the Legion and letting the people she loves die.

The free choice in falling the Void may yet have been emphasized in a couple cases, yet the narrative again treats the whispers like some inevitable, unstoppable force bound to drive you into a state of ill-defined madness that turns you into a one-off loot pinata. This is at least one of the few elements in which the "effective manipulator" bit is played properly, but it still does come from a sort of persuasion or bargaining with ulterior motives. It does work for them on paper, but see my prior comments as to why this is not the most interesting thing you could do with the Void.

Really? Cause I'd argue the Old Gods have been doing it just fine.

How?

[Nymrohd]

@Le Conceptuel I didn't really focus on that at all. I am saying that what you can do is BODY HORROR. Sammuels slowly transforms into a mind flayer, we reverse it only for Lord Stormsong to supercharge it and turn an innocent we had been protecting into a mass of flesh that attacks us. Imagine that but in a Silent Hills game. It would work and it would be horrifying. I know it works in tabletop cause I've done it to a player who was going through ceremorphosis and the group ate it up.

Old Gods are after all focused on flesh. Void Lords are focused on cosmic horror. Which makes sense given that the former are the physical incarnation of the latter.

[Lady Atia]

Yes, they don't care at all. If they're still here talking about things that have no fucking relationship to the topic, they're allowed to. After several dozen off-topic pages, you will notice that they are always the same names. Obviously these people never or very little participate when the thread is not derailed. But you know, like craving junkies, they're there to derail it when they get out of control.

They could very well create their own topic, but no. We absolutely have to derail this thread, otherwise it's not funny. I don't know what's going on in their head to be honest. But like I said, if they're still there despite reports... they're authorized. The forum is corrupt and I will probably walk away from it. It's a shame, discussions can be so interesting when people have respect and talk about the subject.

And you will see, I will succeed in getting myself banned for these remarks.



This is the cutscene model and animations but we can always dream.

Well, I have no clue about the technical sides behind the cinematic models besides that f.e. the faces use more bones and stuff, but couldn't they easily use the body shape later on for player models? It somehow reminds me about Garrosh in SoO and the later Orc rework in WoD tbh. And not gonna lie, initially I wasn't really on board with more body shapes but if they manage to keep the spirit of each races while giving some variation like with Sindragosa/Alex it could work super well. That said, I can already see the "Mc Donalds opened up on Azeroth during the Timeskip" memes if they make body shapes too much like the Kul Tirans lol (although chunky Worgens could look super cute xD).

Also, imo "additional body shapes and more race customizations to bring them inline with Dracthyr" would go very well alongside a revamp that shows off the new models.

[Scyth]

Wth are these last 2 pages lol Derailing a thread is one thing but some of you lot are taking it to a whole other level. Create a new thread and post your essays there.

Stiven from wowhead posted pictures of Alextrasza without her horns and armour today, and for me it looks like it's actually not using the classic blood elf skeleton? Could see it used as another body type option down the line similiar to Dracthyr?



Also I think Sindragrosa's cinematic visage model also uses a different build than the classic blood/void elves.

(oh, and we defo need new HD hairstyles for the older races that are on par with Alex's hair here lol)

This model looks great, not sure how I've missed it!
Has it been datamined which cinematic would use this? Or is it just her normal appearance but without the horns?

[Aucald]

The long-winded discussions about body horror, cosmic horror, and Lovecraftian themes aren't really germane to this thread - take it to the Lore forum if you want to discuss the more general or broader themes of storytelling in WoW and let's keep this thread focused on more specific elements of future content patch or expansion material in WoW.

[Skildar]

all this discussion about horror made me realize that they once tried improving camera work for their combat system but then gave up rather quickly. I wonder if they will get back on this task in the future. For sure I would enjoy it but I'm thinking that very competitive players will need the option for current camera freedom to stay.

Good camera in video game is probably one of the hardest thing to pull off but it's very rewarding for narrative work and the overall ambiance

[Le Conceptuel]

While we're back on the usual topic, what kind of themes are people roughly expecting for the oncoming expansion?

[Lahis]

While we're back on the usual topic, what kind of themes are people roughly expecting for the oncoming expansion?

I'll be shocked if it is not the Light Crusade.

[AngerFork]

While we're back on the usual topic, what kind of themes are people roughly expecting for the oncoming expansion?

Light vs. Void has been hinted at for some time, would not be surprised to see that as a theme. Avaloren has been mentioned more and more lately and would play well off of damage that the Incarnates might be able to cause. As we don't know much about Avaloren, it's very possibly already infested with one of the cosmic elements, so those two themes may not be that different.

World revamp is still a possibility too, especially with the 20th Anniversary of WoW coming up. It would be a good chance for the current WoW team to make the world their own while at the same time making more zones have standalone stories that aren't as trapped in time as the Cata stories are.