Tanks - why are they so overtuned, yet again?

[Nyel]

Do you really want to be spending more of your GCDs as a healer babysitting the tank? It's just making the job you seem to think is awful even more annoying.

I love healing and I'm a main healer since Cataclysm, in various difficulties and contents. I still completely disagree with the takes on healing vs. tanking in this thread. Sure, you won't go anywhere without a tank, but you won't go anywhere without a healer either (and if you go without a healer, it just shows that tanks shouldn't be the holy trinity in unison - a healer should always be mandatory, even in a 5-player-pro-group, the very rare ocassion where the healer is dropped in favor of more DPS).

So pretty futile discussion overall, as both roles are mandatory. In contrast to healers I just think that tanks are spoilt and a lot of them are quite entitled on top of that.

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A lot of people playing DPS can't live without the healer basically babysitting them...

This so much.

In properly formed, trained and tested groups it's different for every group member, but that's not what we're talking about anyway.

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Buff tanks more IMO, make them easier to play, so more people will tank.

Making them stronger doesn't result in tanking becoming more popular.

[tomten]

If directions are that hard for you, you're playing the wrong role. We're talking base level play right here. The level of comparison was a healer that doesn't CC or dps. I picked up tank for the first time in SL in low M+ (+15). Just as easy as healer. The only thing you have to know is your route.




The sad thing is, you either think you're good and are being an elitst jerk but you're only doing +22s or you're such a dick that you have to PUG when you want to push keys because nobody wants to do a key with you twice. I'll tell you a little secret, in actual "meaningful gameplay" you know the people you're playing with.

Like i said, how to tell everyone you've never tanked without saying you've never tanked.
You have no idea what tanking actually means above weekly vault andy.
You show this by saying tanking is only about following directions... Ok, cool story

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can someone please explain why people defend tanks being overtuned for the sake of "so more players play tank"?

obviously, it's meant to shorten wait times BUT:

to me it feels very shortsighted.

if the only way to make tanks "fun" by making them immortal death dealing one man armies, anyone who argues like that would be stupid not to play tank themselves.
then, by playing this type of tank, they wouldn't need more tanks (or any other player in general) in the first place.

even if they stuck to their then obsolete role of dps, what would they expect to happen? just idly following the path of destruction enjoying the scenery without a need to contribute?

Because tanks are not overtuned, not even a little bit. It's just clueless dumbass people screeching at the top of their lungs because they can't handle change. Tanks are not op... Dps just takes more damage and the contrast is making it seem like "tanks are unkillable"....while.... DOING A HEROIC DUNGEON....LIKE IT SHOULD BE....
And the fact blizzard has the audacity to balance tanks around m0 because the worthless dps players are butthurt is just insane...It's one of the most pathetic and asinine nerfs in the history of wow and just show how pathetically out of touch the devs are with reality, having to pander to screeching idiots...
Wait 2 weeks, lets see how people like the first 2 extremely shit affix weeks for the start of season...
The same people are gonna demand tanks to get buffed lol....

[Nyel]

Wait 2 weeks, lets see how people like the first 2 extremely shit affix weeks for the start of season...
The same people are gonna demand tanks to get buffed lol....

How is this defined by tanks being nerfed or not? Oh right, it's not.

[tomten]

How is this defined by tanks being nerfed or not? Oh right, it's not.

If you played tanks you would know how extremely shitty fort+raging is for tanks. Thats the first week.
I'll let you figure out the 2nd weeks and why it matters in relation to tank nerfs.

And if that isn't enough? Go figure out why and when those flat DR buffs were given to tanks... They were given for a reason lol....
And now they were taken away for literally no reason...

Gonna be fun to watch at least

[ZazuuPriest]

You make it sound as if it's about doing damage when doing damage is just healers using globals that would otherwise be dead because they already put out enough healing. Single target healing being inefficient dog shit and boring is why the game has shifted away from healers mindlessly spamming a heal on the tank like you see in some classic gameplay. This change was happening long before M+ was even a thing.

Do you think tanks weren't mostly self sufficient in MoP and WoD? LMFAO, "it's because of M+ and healers having to do damage" sure bro this absolutely is a clueless take. Good healers always used dead globals to do damage, this isn't some mythic+ exclusive thing, mythic+ just exposed the healers that want to half afk through a run instead of contributing the entire way like every other role.

i never said they HAD to do damage i said they dont have to worry about the tank and CAN spend that time dpsing. Do you think tanks arent 100x more self sufficient than in WoD or MoP? Because they are, and what did we have back then? the precursor to M+ challenge mode. Did i say it was a mythic+ exclusive thing or did i say M+ has driven the current meta that the OP was talking about?

I bet you really thought you were on to something but your interpretation, and willful misrepresentation, of what I have said doesnt make me clueless it just makes you... well i cant drop too many R bombs on you ill get in internet trouble.

[Pendraeg]

can someone please explain why people defend tanks being overtuned for the sake of "so more players play tank"?

obviously, it's meant to shorten wait times BUT:

to me it feels very shortsighted.

if the only way to make tanks "fun" by making them immortal death dealing one man armies, anyone who argues like that would be stupid not to play tank themselves.
then, by playing this type of tank, they wouldn't need more tanks (or any other player in general) in the first place.

even if they stuck to their then obsolete role of dps, what would they expect to happen? just idly following the path of destruction enjoying the scenery without a need to contribute?

Coming from a Protadin who off-spec's holy (rather than Ret), we're not death-dealing one man armies.
Not like we were in WotLK (see: Classic) at any rate.
We're good at being hard to kill, that's kinda our job, and yeah, we can deal SOME damage, and that damage is mostly AoE, but we're NOT DPS classes and can't keep up that damage output for a long period of time. We can burst, sure, once every 90 seconds or so, but even then, I MIGHT deal as much single-target damage with popping my CD's as a DPS does without theirs.
Can a well-played tank survive for a while in easy-to-moderate content alone? Yep. It takes for-flippin'-ever to kill a boss/elite though.
Tanks are always going to be the jack-of-all-trades roles. We've seen it expansion after expansion when we start gearing up and some pro player (no shade) solo's a boss. It's always as a tank spec. If we're strong, relatively, or not DPS-wise, we're built to soak and manage damage. That's what we do.
The new talent system, which I MUCH prefer to the previous iteration, by the way, gives us flexibility to sacrifice some of that to get some throughput, which helps the team. That said, the more they nerf us, survivability-wise, the more we move talents from throughput to survivability and the slower we are and the longer the runs take.
When it comes to PUG's? I dunno about any other tank, but I go straight survivability build because I can't trust the healer. When it comes to planned/guild runs, where I know the healer? I flip everything to push throughput and let the healer handle their job.

[VinceVega]

Title.

Tanks deal insane amounts of damage, they have insane self heal and inarguably the best defense and survivability tools in the game (hint: they're tanks).

Didn't Blizzard intend to avoid situations like these, when tanks are basically the holy trinity in unison? I just don't get the idea behind this - I'm playing a healer and it's very comfortable for me, but they seem way too overtuned right now.

What's the reason for this?

If your DPS can't do way more damage than the tank... the DPS is doing something fundamentally wrong.
If you do not have to heal the tank.... he is over geared (like nearly everyone right now) or it is basci content normal, heroic M0. So... everything right now.
This content is not supposed to be challenging in any way. People start to bitch quite fast. See cata heroics.

If the tank would start to pull more according to his iLvL you need to heal again. Him and the group.

[La]

If your DPS can't do way more damage than the tank... the DPS is doing something fundamentally wrong.
If you do not have to heal the tank.... he is over geared (like nearly everyone right now) or it is basci content normal, heroic M0. So... everything right now.
This content is not supposed to be challenging in any way. People start to bitch quite fast. See cata heroics.

If the tank would start to pull more according to his iLvL you need to heal again. Him and the group.

Well, tanks still due quite a lot of damage in AOE packs. If the tanks pulled more according to their ilvl, then the rest of the group would probably be dead due to many enemies now doing damaging abilities to the whole party. I'd say it's a pretty fundamental flaw if your DPS/Healer at the same ilvl can't deal with such pulls, but as the tank you don't have to worry about dying at all. Obviously you're the tank, you shouldn't have the same problem, but to basically have your health pool barely move at all is a bit too much.

I'm confused. Power creep affects DPS more than a tank, but it still affects a tank. A tank is only going to keep the same consistent tanking feeling as they gear up, which means this exact scenario will persist through M+ keys. If we're talking Mythic raids, and we're talking late level keys, then maybe. But if that's the case then all Blizzard will do is revert these changes when people begin approaching such content, or adjust it as needed.

Not that I think the philosophy of "Can you keep the group alive" is worse than "Can you keep the tank alive" But to be quite honest I think healers would rather be healing than DPSing. So for those saying they want to heal the tank as little as possible, why are you even playing a healer? I'm sure it's lovely to pull so much and take barely any damage, without using active mitigation or proper cooldowns, yes, I'm sure you feel like a real, big, strong and manly tank. Along with the damage a tank can do, and as it often is, when something is too strong it does tend to be very fun. I suppose I might make any argument I can to keep it that way, too.

[VinceVega]

Well, tanks still due quite a lot of damage in AOE packs. If the tanks pulled more according to their ilvl, then the rest of the group would probably be dead due to many enemies now doing damaging abilities to the whole party. I'd say it's a pretty fundamental flaw if your DPS/Healer at the same ilvl can't deal with such pulls, but as the tank you don't have to worry about dying at all. Obviously you're the tank, you shouldn't have the same problem, but to basically have your health pool barely move at all is a bit too much.

I'm confused. Power creep affects DPS more than a tank, but it still affects a tank. A tank is only going to keep the same consistent tanking feeling as they gear up, which means this exact scenario will persist through M+ keys. If we're talking Mythic raids, and we're talking late level keys, then maybe. But if that's the case then all Blizzard will do is revert these changes when people begin approaching such content, or adjust it as needed.

Not that I think the philosophy of "Can you keep the group alive" is worse than "Can you keep the tank alive" But to be quite honest I think healers would rather be healing than DPSing. So for those saying they want to heal the tank as little as possible, why are you even playing a healer? I'm sure it's lovely to pull so much and take barely any damage, without using active mitigation or proper cooldowns, yes, I'm sure you feel like a real, big, strong and manly tank. Along with the damage a tank can do, and as it often is, when something is too strong it does tend to be very fun. I suppose I might make any argument I can to keep it that way, too.

But the healer can deal with it. They just have to plan their CDs.

If someone can't thats ok. Not everyone needs to do this. But is is completly possible.
Like in Uldaman the big Golems. You can pull all of them 4-5 and the dwarves together. As long as the healer KNOWS he will happen ge can prepare accordingly.

Healers just tend to whine like crazy if they suddenly have to use their CDs or play more than just reactivly. And i am a healer myself.

Tanks can push thesmelves more with growing gear. There is still a difference tanking a group after another group or tanking 3 groups at once while kiting another mob in circles and moving forward towards the next group.

I (and every healer in my guild at lease) Like doing damage a bit while healing. I like weaving in a few dmg spells. And there is nearly NEVER nothing to heal. Someone is always taking damage.

[bullseyed]

Given almost every tank is getting buffs I think you are wrong.

Misinformation. Every tank was just nerfed across the board.

[Nyel]

But the healer can deal with it. They just have to plan their CDs.

If someone can't thats ok. Not everyone needs to do this. But is is completly possible.
Like in Uldaman the big Golems. You can pull all of them 4-5 and the dwarves together. As long as the healer KNOWS he will happen ge can prepare accordingly.

Healers just tend to whine like crazy if they suddenly have to use their CDs or play more than just reactivly. And i am a healer myself.

Tanks can push thesmelves more with growing gear. There is still a difference tanking a group after another group or tanking 3 groups at once while kiting another mob in circles and moving forward towards the next group.

I (and every healer in my guild at lease) Like doing damage a bit while healing. I like weaving in a few dmg spells. And there is nearly NEVER nothing to heal. Someone is always taking damage.

The thing is, a healer does not care just about himself when a tank pulls these groups together. He has to have an eye on all the AoE that is massively over-present in DF, then all the CC (interrupts, fear and silence) and then take care of the DPS which love camping in AoE or are just struck by damage they can't avoid. Tanks have nowhere close the hussle in these situations a healer has.

[bullseyed]

Also keep in mind that if this is based on leveling dungeons, the weird scaling is going to make stuff appear very strange. Characters are more powerful the closer they are to level 60 because they'll have the stats from the previous expansion. I was literally top DPS in every key I did on my holy priest for the first two levels just by using holy Nova because I still had like 35% haste and overpowered trinkets

Yeah, they really messed up scaling. I want to lock one of my tanks at 60 so I can boost people to 70 in dungeons.

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Warrior and Vdh deal very high constant damage in m0 right now, maybe a bit too much.

But that'd be still tank tuning that's sure to come and not "all tanks are busted".

As a prot pally 60-70heroic I was top 2 every dungeon in DPS and usually equal to the healer on healing.

Hard to say if its because most players are bad, or because tanks do a lot of damage.


In M0s when I was 30 ilvl behind DPS, I started losing meters more often.

[Nyel]

I think nobody here is calling for these nerfs based on 60-70 experience. I made this thread after having played mythic dungeons and having seen what tanks were capable off.

[Octania]

Who thinks that tanks need to do DD-DPS to deal "too much damage"? They're still tanks for the sake of it, it's not their job to deal 80-100% of a damage dealer's damage.

I will never, ever, for the life of me understand people like these.

Crying about a constant lack of tanks while it's without a doubt the role the most responsibility during Mythic dungeons (and to a much lesser extent, raids).
Yet, they cry foul the instant tanks are strong and *gasp* maybe even a little bit of fun because doing damage actually feels good and is a nice change of pace from being a dmg sponge that pulls mobs in.

No, they are supposed to sit down, shut up and leave all the damage dealing/having fun to the "real" dps, because someone's fragile ego can't handle having to compete with a "lesser" spec/role.

I personally loved tanking from tbc until ~Mop, Mop especially was so much fun with the vengeance (?) mechanic.
Felt like i could really contribute/sometimes even carry raids as prot paladin. (stuff like solo tanking Horridon, Iron Qon and some other bosses come to mind)

Haven't really bothered since as its simply not fun at all.
Kinda feels like being someone's nameless, faceless caddy holding my master's golf bag rather than an equal and valued partner in a common goal.

I say as long as people don't run multiple tanks in their m+ comps because even inactive (=not actively tanking) tank specced players do more dmg than "real" dps, let tanks do competitive dmg, heck if the situation allows for it maybe even let them top the charts on occasion?! (same goes for healers btw)
There is literally 0 downside outside of maybe bruising some sweaty nerds ego.

If not, well have fun looking for a tank who is fine with all work and no play - it just won't be me and/or others who actually want to have fun tanking.
The constant lack for tanks seems to show i am not alone in this.

[Archy]

Like i said, how to tell everyone you've never tanked without saying you've never tanked.
You have no idea what tanking actually means above weekly vault andy.
You show this by saying tanking is only about following directions... Ok, cool story

The premise was literally a +14. BASIC tanking vs BASIC healing. Can't you read?

[sponge5307]

I will never, ever, for the life of me understand people like these.

Crying about a constant lack of tanks while it's without a doubt the role the most responsibility during Mythic dungeons (and to a much lesser extent, raids).
Yet, they cry foul the instant tanks are strong and *gasp* maybe even a little bit of fun because doing damage actually feels good and is a nice change of pace from being a dmg sponge that pulls mobs in.

No, they are supposed to sit down, shut up and leave all the damage dealing/having fun to the "real" dps, because someone's fragile ego can't handle having to compete with a "lesser" spec/role.

I personally loved tanking from tbc until ~Mop, Mop especially was so much fun with the vengeance (?) mechanic.
Felt like i could really contribute/sometimes even carry raids as prot paladin. (stuff like solo tanking Horridon, Iron Qon and some other bosses come to mind)

Haven't really bothered since as its simply not fun at all.
Kinda feels like being someone's nameless, faceless caddy holding my master's golf bag rather than an equal and valued partner in a common goal.

I say as long as people don't run multiple tanks in their m+ comps because even inactive (=not actively tanking) tank specced players do more dmg than "real" dps, let tanks do competitive dmg, heck if the situation allows for it maybe even let them top the charts on occasion?! (same goes for healers btw)
There is literally 0 downside outside of maybe bruising some sweaty nerds ego.

If not, well have fun looking for a tank who is fine with all work and no play - it just won't be me and/or others who actually want to have fun tanking.
The constant lack for tanks seems to show i am not alone in this.

In higher m+ keys most dps and healer know which mob to interrupt, dispell, when to move tanks bascially just keep aggro make sure to use CD. Since they done the route like 100th times they know which route to take already and what to do in different alffix. Is between +7 to +13 when tanking for pug is bad since dps and heal is use to just dps without doing any interrupt or moving out of avoidable damage. That all changes around +7. When you reach +15 and onwards is pretty easy for tanks. and it gets hard again around +20.

Since this season KSM is +20 I suspect around +15 is when tanking for pugs will get easier.

[pahbi]

I love healing and I'm a main healer since Cataclysm, in various difficulties and contents. I still completely disagree with the takes on healing vs. tanking in this thread. Sure, you won't go anywhere without a tank, but you won't go anywhere without a healer either (and if you go without a healer, it just shows that tanks shouldn't be the holy trinity in unison - a healer should always be mandatory, even in a 5-player-pro-group, the very rare ocassion where the healer is dropped in favor of more DPS).

So pretty futile discussion overall, as both roles are mandatory. In contrast to healers I just think that tanks are spoilt and a lot of them are quite entitled on top of that.

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This so much.

In properly formed, trained and tested groups it's different for every group member, but that's not what we're talking about anyway.

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Making them stronger doesn't result in tanking becoming more popular.

It won't make them any less popular, so go for it!

[iperson]

imagine being mad that tanks can survive.

[Tech614]

I think nobody here is calling for these nerfs based on 60-70 experience. I made this thread after having played mythic dungeons and having seen what tanks were capable off.

60-70 or Mythic 0s what do you think is the difference? Both are irrelevant, mindless gameplay that have absolutely nothing in common with content where people can actually die.

[Enter Name Here]

Coming from a Protadin who off-spec's holy (rather than Ret), we're not death-dealing one man armies.
Not like we were in WotLK (see: Classic) at any rate.
We're good at being hard to kill, that's kinda our job, and yeah, we can deal SOME damage, and that damage is mostly AoE, but we're NOT DPS classes and can't keep up that damage output for a long period of time. We can burst, sure, once every 90 seconds or so, but even then, I MIGHT deal as much single-target damage with popping my CD's as a DPS does without theirs.
Can a well-played tank survive for a while in easy-to-moderate content alone? Yep. It takes for-flippin'-ever to kill a boss/elite though.
Tanks are always going to be the jack-of-all-trades roles. We've seen it expansion after expansion when we start gearing up and some pro player (no shade) solo's a boss. It's always as a tank spec. If we're strong, relatively, or not DPS-wise, we're built to soak and manage damage. That's what we do.
The new talent system, which I MUCH prefer to the previous iteration, by the way, gives us flexibility to sacrifice some of that to get some throughput, which helps the team. That said, the more they nerf us, survivability-wise, the more we move talents from throughput to survivability and the slower we are and the longer the runs take.
When it comes to PUG's? I dunno about any other tank, but I go straight survivability build because I can't trust the healer. When it comes to planned/guild runs, where I know the healer? I flip everything to push throughput and let the healer handle their job.

first, I admit that the "death dealing one man army" part was greatly exaggerated damage-wise. my focus lies more on the survivability. to me, it feels very off.

entering an m0 dungeon during the first week of the expansion and seeing a tank bolt through the room pulling everything in sight i thought to myself he will be dead before i catch up to him. but he didn't. he barely lost maybe 20% health on that pull.
or to quote someone else on the web: "tanks are not there to protect anymore but to catch up to"

second, my post / issue is mostly about how people defend how things are and not about how things actually are.

going back to my post you quoted: i've seen a lot of posts defending this kind of "immortality" basically saying "let them have their unbalanced fun so i can find a tank quicker"
i'm just unable to understand this kind of reasoning as it seems so self-deprecating to me