Tanks - why are they so overtuned, yet again?

[fwc577]

Maybe try doing keys above 10? lol...




Here. https://discord.gg/skyhold
Thats the warrior class discord. Come in and say what you say. See the response.. Who is even dorki?
We have people attempting 27s that WILDY disagrees with you and whoever that no name is.

I'm already in Skyhold, you think you're special because you know the class discord?

Lemme start off by pointing out your utter ridiculous bullshit. There is literally only 1 27 key in the world right now. You don't have "people attempting 27s". Stop being hyperbolic to try and prove a point because it only makes you look like a liar and clueless.

But also, you've completely lost the fucking plot.

The question was: What makes warrior "just far too OP right now" in comparison to the other tanks?

I don't know, maybe it's the fact I've got eyes and a fucking brain?

Raider.io <-- Here is a super secret website (/s) where you can see how things stack up you should check it out sometime and perform analysis and critically think.

While you're sitting here lying about 27s. The following facts are true:

68 of the top 100 tanks in the world are Warriors. 12 are Paladins. 10 are DKs. 5 are DHs. 4 are Brewmaster. 1 is a Guardian.

The best Druid has managed to clear all keys at 21 and SBG/CoS at 23

The best Brewmaster has managed to clear all keys but HoV (21) at 22 and SBG/CoS at 23

The best Demon Hunter has managed to clear all keys at 22 and SBG/CoS at 23

The best Paladins have managed to clear all keys at 22 and SBG/CoS at 24

The best Death Knights have managed to clear all keys at 23 and SBG/CoS at 24/25

The best Warrior.... all keys at 24, ONE CoS at 26 and SBGs at 25.

Death Knights are already an outlier being a full 1 key above the other tanks. Warrior is a full two key levels above other tanks.


Compare this to season 1 of Shadowlands.. All tanks were able to complete 25s and only 4 tanks worldwide managed to push 27s in two dungeons.

TLDR: To answer the question of "What makes warrior "just far too OP right now" in comparison to the other tanks?"

It's because they're consistently completing keys +2 key lvls on average above the other tanks.

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RE: warriors, anecdotally I've healed warrior, dk, and monk for the most part in 16+ keys. Everything seems fine at that level so far but warrior is by far the easiest to heal and least spikey.

I take almost no damage on my warrior in 15/16s. I've actually had to macro a key to sit for full party wipes so I die faster when the DPS turn out to be DerPS

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Dorki is a big D tank that hangs with Growl and the petzergling or IO Injection fam - big TIME key type people that are usually at the top if not the top. Most of us in this chat have no idea what its like to be in the top top .1% of the game to push those high keys: But I will say this. From someone that plays extremely casual, 16's this past week on Tyrannical were totally fine but when you press further (besides Burial or COS obviously) 17+ in pugs is extremely tough for most people right now due to ilvl and not knowing the dungeons. Hell I've run 25 or more 15-18's and I can say that pugging is tough in the beginning of the xpac where people not only have bad gear, but they dont know much about the dungeons.

Now people like Dorki and Growls (AKA GROMM's) team: they are absolutely in sync and the synergy teams like that have after playing 2-3 expansions of M+ together and MDI etc aren't even comparable to us IMO

What's crazy to me is this guy is in here shit talking about how great he is and how bad everyone else is and completing 27s and then goes, whose Dorki? Like, wtf, you serious?

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Just to add a conclusion to my above point regarding the completions for all the tanks, IE.

Druids at 21 Key Level
Brewmaster/Demon Hunter/Paladin at 22 Key Level
Death Knight at 23 Key Level
Warrior at 24 Key Level


Druids and Brewmasters are getting some significant buffs both today and in the coming weeks.

Demon Hunters are getting some slight buffs.

I cannot recall anything for Paladin off the top of my head.

Tells me they want the tanks at the 23 key level range.

So either all the tanks except DK need a larger buffs (with DK needing a slight buff) to bring them to the 24 level. Or they need to nerf Warriors to bring them down slightly.

Due to how far we are into the season, I don't see nerfs until post-season.

Really curious to see how Talent Tree changes and other buffs help out Druid and Brew but I still think they will need more. DH and Paladin will need some additional love as well.

[Deneios]

Can you clear the given content with all of the tank specs with similiar ilvls and effort? If yes then no need for changes.

If the situation were like were in tbc or classic where warrior tanks were mandatory on some fights(illidan) or have to jump through some stupid hoops like cat druids farming a inventory of crowd pummelers to be even viable then id say there is a problem.

[fwc577]

Can you clear the given content with all of the tank specs with similiar ilvls and effort? If yes then no need for changes.

In my opinion, the answer to this question is no.

Warrior requires significantly less effort than other tanks and is significantly tankier than other tank specs. They can complete keys 2+ keystone levels than the other tanks except Blood DK. They can complete 1 keystone higher than blood DKs.

Looking at the teams who have downed Mythic Raz, the tanks who have completed that I can see were as follows:

10 Warriors, 8 DKs, 1 Paladin, 1 Guardian, 0 Brewmaster, 0 DH

[Tech614]

In my opinion, the answer to this question is no.

Warrior requires significantly less effort than other tanks and is significantly tankier than other tank specs. They can complete keys 2+ keystone levels than the other tanks except Blood DK. They can complete 1 keystone higher than blood DKs.

Looking at the teams who have downed Mythic Raz, the tanks who have completed that I can see were as follows:

10 Warriors, 8 DKs, 1 Paladin, 1 Guardian, 0 Brewmaster, 0 DH

You should stop assuming because the best players mostly play X that it is significantly better than anything. You aren't entirely wrong but you are trying to prove it the completely wrong way.

[Ealyssa]

But we aren't, not even close.

Buddy... Prot warriors can tank a 20 with 80% uptime on battle stance. That's how ridiculously overtuned they are.
Whatever is "destroying" you is either bad play or something that would just kill any other tank spec.

The simple fact that half of the 10% tank nerf was on the prot stance they don't use made the gap with the other specs even larger.

[tomten]

Now people like Dorki and Growls (AKA GROMM's) team: they are absolutely in sync and the synergy teams like that have after playing 2-3 expansions of M+ together and MDI etc aren't even comparable to us IMO

Yeh, obvs I know who he is, i watch MDI too... Its just such a stupid argument, its like listening to max predict meta classes, yeh ok, cool, he's in limit but thats as far as it goes and you have proof just how clueless he is about these things.
Neither of them is some all mighty knowing god when it comes to all classes and is more a fotm player.

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Seeing as there has only been 1 26 completed in time, and no 25s +2'd in the entire world who are these magical people attempting multiple 27s? You mean the current top ranked tank in the world? Cause hes the only one who even had the ability to sit foot in a 27 thus far.

Gotta love the smell of bullshit in the morning.

Can you read bro? Where did I say anyone as timed or competed a 27?
I specifically said attempting...
Here you go. https://raider.io/characters/eu/twis...er/Clapsoholic
He's a frequent in the warrior discord, maybe come by and say hi?

Anyhow, he doesn't agree with any of you regarding warriors being "unkillable gods" that nothing can hurt lol...
So if the best warrior says you're wrong and supports what i'm saying? Go figure that lol...
Go back to your 10s bro...

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Buddy... Prot warriors can tank a 20 with 80% uptime on battle stance. That's how ridiculously overtuned they are.
Whatever is "destroying" you is either bad play or something that would just kill any other tank spec.

The simple fact that half of the 10% tank nerf was on the prot stance they don't use made the gap with the other specs even larger.

People who dont play tanks should just not comment...
its not my opinion about getting destroyed...its a general consensus among everyone except this dorki dude...

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I'm already in Skyhold, you think you're special because you know the class discord?
Lemme start off by pointing out your utter ridiculous bullshit. There is literally only 1 27 key in the world right now. You don't have "people attempting 27s". Stop being hyperbolic to try and prove a point because it only makes you look like a liar and clueless.

Great. Then you know im right lol..
What are you even trying to argue?
Is he gonna solo the key? No?

[Simulacrum]

Druids and Brewmasters are getting some significant buffs both today

druids are not getting any buffs today

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Anyhow, he doesn't agree with any of you regarding warriors being "unkillable gods" that nothing can hurt lol...

compared to the other tanks they are

[arkanon]

These conversations are always so tiresome. Sometimes a tank performs amazing in m+ and average in raids. Sometimes it's because of damage output (m+ in particular) sometimes it's survivability - sometimes damage smoothing (when stagger was OP) sometimes it's the ability to almost ignore big hits (when ignore pain was OP).

Then there is the difficulty of the content - someone who mostly raids normal and dabbles in heroic might have a VERY different idea of what tank is OP compared to someone who only does mythic raids, or only does m+.

Ultimately for a tank to be OP to the point of broken, they need to be better than every other tank at every facet of PvE. They can still be the strongest tank without being broken.

Another thing is perception. Too often streamers and influencers who raid mythic talk about how powerful a spec is, then every tom dick and Harry jump on the bandwagon and fill the boards with that one spec, especially in lower difficulties. Truth is, at their level, any tank would have been fine, but it gives the perception no other tank is viable.

Same shit happened with the mage tower early on, where people swore black and blue certain ones couldn't be completed without BIS Legos. Even though myself and MANY others completed them st the same time without them, and I'm no world first raider, that's for damn sure.

Maybe warriors are very strong, I'm not playing right now so won't speak directly on it, but I suspect a lot of it is perception. At least in mythic, it seems dks are about as desirable as warriors.

[Thalrend]

Tomten, Just out of sheer wonder, what is your M+score/Rio again? Because you talk like you know everything, and i can bet my ass that you are not higher than 2.4 2.5 k range.

So lets start, got a warrior at 2.650 which is not very high imo because its a prot warrior and a guardian at 2512. What can i say is I am Infinitely better at my guardian druid as a player, I played it much longer, i been a bear tank for a long ass fucking while and i have a solid idea what is going on in the classes. Don't have a M plus team so i generally do my key in total pugs, so meanwhile I think i can reach higher, right now this is where I am at. I also play prot pala and brew monk, so i think i have a solid grasp on tank balance. I find it infinitely easier to push with my warrior than my druid, even though as i said, i sincerely think I am a better overall player with my druid.

I agree every tank can do a +20, problem right now is, ITS INFINITELY easier to do with prot warriors than any other tank spec. Maybe blood dk is not THAT far behind but yeah. When you struggle to survive as one tank at the same i lvl/ set etc than the other tank, Id say one class is much stronger than other. Warrior at the moment is cracked, its absolutely cracked and I don't understand how in your right mind you don't think they are not. You give example of crawk from fucking algethar as how warrior is weak, crawk on tyranical high keys dumpers pretty much every tank, its not only limited to the warriors just saying my dude. Do you know what other tanks can't do? Fucking reflecting tank busters to adds and doing like fucking %30 of a mobs hp with a reflect. An example of this is the court of stars succubi.

Warriors are simply very rewarding to play atm and i find them much safer than other tanks. I fucking gorilla can be successful with a warrior, meanwhile in a guardian or in a monk you actually have to use your braincells. Thats what people keep bicthing about.

[Sialina]

Tomten, Just out of sheer wonder, what is your M+score/Rio again? Because you talk like you know everything, and i can bet my ass that you are not higher than 2.4 2.5 k range.

So lets start, got a warrior at 2.650 which is not very high imo because its a prot warrior and a guardian at 2512. What can i say is I am Infinitely better at my guardian druid as a player, I played it much longer, i been a bear tank for a long ass fucking while and i have a solid idea what is going on in the classes. Don't have a M plus team so i generally do my key in total pugs, so meanwhile I think i can reach higher, right now this is where I am at. I also play prot pala and brew monk, so i think i have a solid grasp on tank balance. I find it infinitely easier to push with my warrior than my druid, even though as i said, i sincerely think I am a better overall player with my druid.

I agree every tank can do a +20, problem right now is, ITS INFINITELY easier to do with prot warriors than any other tank spec. Maybe blood dk is not THAT far behind but yeah. When you struggle to survive as one tank at the same i lvl/ set etc than the other tank, Id say one class is much stronger than other. Warrior at the moment is cracked, its absolutely cracked and I don't understand how in your right mind you don't think they are not. You give example of crawk from fucking algethar as how warrior is weak, crawk on tyranical high keys dumpers pretty much every tank, its not only limited to the warriors just saying my dude. Do you know what other tanks can't do? Fucking reflecting tank busters to adds and doing like fucking %30 of a mobs hp with a reflect. An example of this is the court of stars succubi.

Warriors are simply very rewarding to play atm and i find them much safer than other tanks. I fucking gorilla can be successful with a warrior, meanwhile in a guardian or in a monk you actually have to use your braincells. Thats what people keep bicthing about.

As a fellow Guardian, how do you have to use your brain? Bear is the easiest tank season on season, in my opinion. Right now it's not great, might be after the talent tree revamp though. Blood, Prot paladin and Warrior are all good, sure, warrior is somewhat ahead, but it's not that far ahead. Meta seems to be a difficult concept to grasp for some. Lets say Guardian is 0.2% better than Prot warrior next patch, what do you think will happen? you'll see everyone shifting to Guardian, people will make guides with optimal Guardian cooldown usage on certain bosses, and suddenly there will be pulls "you can only do on a Guardian"

[naeblis495]

Only Prot warrior are busted and need no brains to succeed.Perma shield block and ignore pain is disgusting.

DK need a slight nerf, bear need a slight buff. DH got their buff.

Brewmaster need help.

[Kikazz]

Only Prot warrior are busted and need no brains to succeed.Perma shield block and ignore pain is disgusting.

DK need a slight nerf, bear need a slight buff. DH got their buff.

Brewmaster need help.

wait brewmaster is a tanking spec?

could have fooled me with the way blizzard has treated them.

[Gamingsince1981]

I'm already in Skyhold, you think you're special because you know the class discord?

Lemme start off by pointing out your utter ridiculous bullshit. There is literally only 1 27 key in the world right now. You don't have "people attempting 27s". Stop being hyperbolic to try and prove a point because it only makes you look like a liar and clueless.

But also, you've completely lost the fucking plot.

The question was: What makes warrior "just far too OP right now" in comparison to the other tanks?

I don't know, maybe it's the fact I've got eyes and a fucking brain?

Raider.io <-- Here is a super secret website (/s) where you can see how things stack up you should check it out sometime and perform analysis and critically think.

While you're sitting here lying about 27s. The following facts are true:

68 of the top 100 tanks in the world are Warriors. 12 are Paladins. 10 are DKs. 5 are DHs. 4 are Brewmaster. 1 is a Guardian.

The best Druid has managed to clear all keys at 21 and SBG/CoS at 23

The best Brewmaster has managed to clear all keys but HoV (21) at 22 and SBG/CoS at 23

The best Demon Hunter has managed to clear all keys at 22 and SBG/CoS at 23

The best Paladins have managed to clear all keys at 22 and SBG/CoS at 24

The best Death Knights have managed to clear all keys at 23 and SBG/CoS at 24/25

The best Warrior.... all keys at 24, ONE CoS at 26 and SBGs at 25.

Death Knights are already an outlier being a full 1 key above the other tanks. Warrior is a full two key levels above other tanks.


Compare this to season 1 of Shadowlands.. All tanks were able to complete 25s and only 4 tanks worldwide managed to push 27s in two dungeons.

TLDR: To answer the question of "What makes warrior "just far too OP right now" in comparison to the other tanks?"

It's because they're consistently completing keys +2 key lvls on average above the other tanks.

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I take almost no damage on my warrior in 15/16s. I've actually had to macro a key to sit for full party wipes so I die faster when the DPS turn out to be DerPS

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What's crazy to me is this guy is in here shit talking about how great he is and how bad everyone else is and completing 27s and then goes, whose Dorki? Like, wtf, you serious?

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Just to add a conclusion to my above point regarding the completions for all the tanks, IE.

Druids at 21 Key Level
Brewmaster/Demon Hunter/Paladin at 22 Key Level
Death Knight at 23 Key Level
Warrior at 24 Key Level


Druids and Brewmasters are getting some significant buffs both today and in the coming weeks.

Demon Hunters are getting some slight buffs.

I cannot recall anything for Paladin off the top of my head.

Tells me they want the tanks at the 23 key level range.

So either all the tanks except DK need a larger buffs (with DK needing a slight buff) to bring them to the 24 level. Or they need to nerf Warriors to bring them down slightly.

Due to how far we are into the season, I don't see nerfs until post-season.

Really curious to see how Talent Tree changes and other buffs help out Druid and Brew but I still think they will need more. DH and Paladin will need some additional love as well.

What's your point ?

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Seems like the players playing warrior just know how to play, maybe the scrubs playing other classes need to get better ,instead of crying like bitches on a forum they should be practising their class so they too won't suck.

[fwc577]

He's a frequent in the warrior discord, maybe come by and say hi?

...

Anyhow, he doesn't agree with any of you regarding warriors being "unkillable gods" that nothing can hurt lol...
So if the best warrior says you're wrong and supports what i'm saying? Go figure that lol...
Go back to your 10s bro...

Bro, I told you I'm already in the fucking Discord and I can see what NioS2K fucking says in there. Stop fucking lying to prove you're fucking right when it's so fucking easy to prove you're fucking wrong. Holy shit. Here, I will pull up some of his recent quotes because you seem to have seen one thing he said once about something and think Warriors are some dead, broken class.

Someone yesterday asked:

What is the community obsession freaking out over pwarr being good for once? Why does everyone still think we're some immortal god making all other tanks obsolete and unplayable? I see literally every tank except monk doing 24s

His response:

dk/warrior can both face tank for a very long time. but the damage output of the pwarr is just soo far ahead than other tanks, that makes it the best tank by far

Same person also asked:

Just curious, what bosses have you found stupid hard to tank, if any?
ignore the usual korthia and grawth

His Reply:

tank war is all about cd usage. its easy if you dont go full potato, a bad cd usage can punish you while other classes just makes ur time a bit harder.
number wise I hate 1st and 2nd boss on rlp
mechanical bosses its just the azure last boss I cba some times

When people are in the actual fucking discord and can see his actual fucking messages. Why the fuck are you lying about what he says on the Discord? The only commentary he really had about Warriors not being unkillable gods within the last month is him talking about how hard Hyrja hits on a +24 HOV.

Quit lying and acting like you're acutally somebody on the fucking Warrior discord.

FFS, You're probably the dude who asked him some basic questions recently with @ and think he's your fucking best friend now or some shit.

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Maybe warriors are very strong, I'm not playing right now so won't speak directly on it, but I suspect a lot of it is perception. At least in mythic, it seems dks are about as desirable as warriors.

If you're not playing right now, literally don't comment on this because you haven't a clue.

What makes you seem like DKs are "about as desirable"

What metric are you using this as? Surely, it is not representation in all facets of PVE where Warrior are dominating everyone else.

[arkanon]

If you're not playing right now, literally don't comment on this because you haven't a clue.

What makes you seem like DKs are "about as desirable"

What metric are you using this as? Surely, it is not representation in all facets of PVE where Warrior are dominating everyone else.

10 warriors killed last boss, 8 dks. Seems pretty similar to me. And dont you dare try to tell me what i can and cannot comment on, ill comment on whatever the hell i want. You are entirely delusional if you think this situation is unique to DF. If you had quoted the entire post for context, your response would look quite silly. Here, ill do it for you:

These conversations are always so tiresome. Sometimes a tank performs amazing in m+ and average in raids. Sometimes it's because of damage output (m+ in particular) sometimes it's survivability - sometimes damage smoothing (when stagger was OP) sometimes it's the ability to almost ignore big hits (when ignore pain was OP).

Then there is the difficulty of the content - someone who mostly raids normal and dabbles in heroic might have a VERY different idea of what tank is OP compared to someone who only does mythic raids, or only does m+.

Ultimately for a tank to be OP to the point of broken, they need to be better than every other tank at every facet of PvE. They can still be the strongest tank without being broken.

Another thing is perception. Too often streamers and influencers who raid mythic talk about how powerful a spec is, then every tom dick and Harry jump on the bandwagon and fill the boards with that one spec, especially in lower difficulties. Truth is, at their level, any tank would have been fine, but it gives the perception no other tank is viable.

Same shit happened with the mage tower early on, where people swore black and blue certain ones couldn't be completed without BIS Legos. Even though myself and MANY others completed them st the same time without them, and I'm no world first raider, that's for damn sure.

Maybe warriors are very strong, I'm not playing right now so won't speak directly on it, but I suspect a lot of it is perception. At least in mythic, it seems dks are about as desirable as warriors.

[fwc577]

What's your point ?

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Seems like the players playing warrior just know how to play, maybe the scrubs playing other classes need to get better ,instead of crying like bitches on a forum they should be practising their class so they too won't suck.

I play Warrior, Paladin, Monk, and Druid all as tank. 3/4 I'm timing 15+ keys on right now and the 4th will be timing 15+ keys this week.

My point is every other tank either needs some significant buffs to bring them to the same level as Warriors or Warriors need a slight nerf and every other tank needs yet another buff.

The biggest folly they made was with the blanket DR nerf at the beginning of the expansion that hurt Warriors the least out of all the tank specs.

There is no case where someone just needs to L2P better on the other classes.

22s/23s/24s are the point where the other tanks just get 1 shot after running through all their defensives while warriors are timing 25s.

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10 warriors killed last boss, 8 dks. Seems pretty similar to me. And dont you dare try to tell me what i can and cannot comment on, ill comment on whatever the hell i want. You are entirely delusional if you think this situation is unique to DF. If you had quoted the entire post for context, your response would look quite silly. Here, ill do it for you:

You're literally looking at one boss and that's your metric? You have no clue on what you're talking about.


My basis for this fact is that I know nothing else about you other than this one single post.

[arkanon]

My basis for this fact is that I know nothing else about you other than this one single post.

Judge all your books just by the cover, do you? I know absolutely NOTHING about you, but what does that have to do with anything?

Using your own logic, you are timing 15s, and yet discussing 25s? Why?

[fwc577]

Judge all your books just by the cover, do you? I know absolutely NOTHING about you, but what does that have to do with anything?

Because you just judged the state of tanks based on one single boss while not even playing the game, ie, you don't crack open the book cover before wandering into this discussion and lobbing bs.

[Zendhal The Black]

Guardians being obscenly broken in Legion, solo tanking few bosses, having 100% uptime on AM and even Magic mitigation for some time = OK
Blood DKs being broken being pretty much their toolkit for several expansion and them being MANDATORY on some bosses due to Mass grip oh and also 100% uptime on AM = very OK
Brewmasters for several expansions living in 100% stagger uptime, watching other tanks getting one shot by tank busters = All OK
Prot paladin having more utility than all the tanks combined with cheat death and an immunity as a cherry on top = All normal

Prot warrior suffering for several expansions being shit on and set on fire, scrambling to even get invited to a m+ group after years of crying having the biggest design flaw adressed (SB uptime) = holy shit, nerf it to the ground!!! How dare warriors be COMPETETIVE!!!!1!11

[Thalrend]

As a fellow Guardian, how do you have to use your brain? Bear is the easiest tank season on season, in my opinion. Right now it's not great, might be after the talent tree revamp though. Blood, Prot paladin and Warrior are all good, sure, warrior is somewhat ahead, but it's not that far ahead. Meta seems to be a difficult concept to grasp for some. Lets say Guardian is 0.2% better than Prot warrior next patch, what do you think will happen? you'll see everyone shifting to Guardian, people will make guides with optimal Guardian cooldown usage on certain bosses, and suddenly there will be pulls "you can only do on a Guardian"

The mechanics of the guardian is simple but knowing what can you survive and milking out everything from your cds so you can actually keep and a good pace and not die in a stupid dpses ninja pull etc. Ofc guardian is easy to play but I am not talking opening incarn and rage of the sleeper and doing a tri pull. Doing +20 bosses on tyranical on 400 gear level with 2 set kinda tells you to open your cds effectively or die.

Its more punishing compared to a warrior, best example would be that when you are doing a pull on a dangerous pack you are pre cding like a barkskin to not get a random insta gib etc, meanwhile at warrior i can simply open a fucking thing that recharges every 16 seconds. Never said guardian was hard, prot is just infinitely easier and more forgiving to play.

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Guardians being obscenly broken in Legion, solo tanking few bosses, having 100% uptime on AM and even Magic mitigation for some time = OK
Blood DKs being broken being pretty much their toolkit for several expansion and them being MANDATORY on some bosses due to Mass grip oh and also 100% uptime on AM = very OK
Brewmasters for several expansions living in 100% stagger uptime, watching other tanks getting one shot by tank busters = All OK
Prot paladin having more utility than all the tanks combined with cheat death and an immunity as a cherry on top = All normal

Prot warrior suffering for several expansions being shit on and set on fire, scrambling to even get invited to a m+ group after years of crying having the biggest design flaw adressed (SB uptime) = holy shit, nerf it to the ground!!! How dare warriors be COMPETETIVE!!!!1!11

I was one of the people who was saying the ursol should get removed btw. And i was happy because that change pushed quite a bit of people from guardian, even though even after that in tomb it was a very very strong tank. My point being is, if you are not going to nerf prot, which is fine, you need to buff other tanks. If you said to me that prot would need a buff in legion i would say fuck yeah they do. And by nerfing them I dont fucking mean destroying them fucking blizzard style, but keep them inline with other tanks. Right now the class has EVERYTHING.

Here is an example, in Azura vaults last boss when orbs are chasing your ass you are shape shifting as a guardian, which is fine since you get intervals that you can do the shapeshift safely, but still its so much more riskier to go cat farm than just heroic leaping.

Ignore pain is just a better ironfur, unless you are doing a incarn pull but i can also say that warriors are p much unkillable in their cds anyway unless you are doing something really really wrong.

People defend their specs in a way that, oh you were op in this expansion, now i will be op. That is a shit way of thinking. I rather be good and competitive in an actual level in every pacth every expansion than be a fucking walking god for 1 expansion and dogshit for next one. Use a bit common sense here

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As a fellow Guardian, how do you have to use your brain? Bear is the easiest tank season on season, in my opinion. Right now it's not great, might be after the talent tree revamp though. Blood, Prot paladin and Warrior are all good, sure, warrior is somewhat ahead, but it's not that far ahead. Meta seems to be a difficult concept to grasp for some. Lets say Guardian is 0.2% better than Prot warrior next patch, what do you think will happen? you'll see everyone shifting to Guardian, people will make guides with optimal Guardian cooldown usage on certain bosses, and suddenly there will be pulls "you can only do on a Guardian"

Also, aboutn the 0.2 % part. Problem is 2-3 key level range is not 0.2 difference in power. if you look at the highest 200-300 keys , there is how many guardians there? the fucking ratio is like bloody 1 to 90 man. Can you do high key as guardian, fuck yes. Is it infinitely harder than a fucking warrior tank, also yes. Also btw the upcoming change seems to be a blantant nerf. They are giving one more talent in the first part of the tree but they are removing the thrash spam from incarn. The raze hits like dogshit, the lunar beam is DOOOOOOOGSHIT, you cant even proper grab all the moonfire shit and twin moonfire now, without foregoing something you had in this version of the druid. Thorns of iron is good but so far from what i seen i take this version of the guardian druid then the upcoming version, power level wise.