Vault of the Incarnates Race to World First

[Biomega]

Well, I guess with no deaths and some slightly tighter plays, that could have gone to 10%. Now it's time to magically pull an extra 10% dps out of your hat somewhere.

Many would say it's not possible, but Sylvanas looked similarly undoable at some point and yet they managed to find some spicy extra damage. So who knows I guess.

[Collected]

If it is at all killable, Echo will kill it. If it's not, the kill will depend on what kind of hotfix gets pushed at what time.

They'll need to do it when Liquid wakes up to give both guilds a fair shot.

[Megor96]

Let's see if those 6 months in the hyperbolic time chamber will help Echo pull out the kill today.

[Biomega]

They'll need to do it when Liquid wakes up to give both guilds a fair shot.

If by "fair shot" you mean "one guild gets the hotfix at the start of their 14-hour day, the other guild gets it with 5 hours left"

But yeah, there isn't really a good way to do it, especially since Blizzard is also 1. basically shut down for the holidays already; and 2. also bound by US time zones for their own office hours.

It would suck either way.

[MrDaemon]

I seriously don't see how either guild can get that last 15% that is brutal with that blue shit on the ground

They had only few tries at lower percentages. There is still room to get more dps as players get more used to these phases.

[Tech614]

They had only few tries at lower percentages. There is still room to get more dps as players get more used to these phases.

Liquid's last wipe was pretty damn clean until the end they could maybe milk another 5-8% but 15% is a tough ask. Either something happens at 10%, boss gets nerfed, or it's not dying tomorrow.

[Biomega]

Liquid's last wipe was pretty damn clean until the end they could maybe milk another 5-8% but 15% is a tough ask. Either something happens at 10%, boss gets nerfed, or it's not dying tomorrow.

The key is likely optimizing damage earlier, during phase 2. Since that's on a timer (Vault Integrity 50% to 0%) you can squeeze extra damage there. How much you can milk from that phase with great optimization remains to be seen, and you'll ALSO need to optimize on phase 3... but it might not be impossible.

[LordVargK]

I would like to see it once where EU has to be the ones doing the final Beta Testing on Mythics from the get go.

Liquid could just wait 24 hours if their headstart is a disadvantage

[Megor96]

Liquid could just wait 24 hours if their headstart is a disadvantage

Or Blizzard could just test their content properly and not toss huge % nerfs every few days.

[Twdft]

Or Blizzard could just test their content properly and not toss huge % nerfs every few days.

Yeah, the winning team should be required to test the next raid so it can be released in a state they can beat it.

[Megor96]

Yeah, the winning team should be required to test the next raid so it can be released in a state they can beat it.

The internal testers should be able to beat it without godmode and then buff some numbers to account for higher skill levels. It's what the XIV devs do without needing to nerf content post-release.

[Biomega]

The devs should be able to beat it without godmode and then buff some numbers to account for higher skill levels. It's what the XIV devs do without needing to nerf content post-release.

Doesn't quite translate, though, because the content is magnitudes easier. It's really hard to properly tune WoW for WF progression. It's not that hard to get it just about right for your average high-end player, but these people are on a whole different level even compared to that. It's very difficult to properly gauge that in the dark.

[Gorsameth]

I think its again the final boss where Echo will take the Lead and win the Race. I dont know, how Liquid is often fall behind at the last Boss. This Time they have also more Trys (347) then Echo (232) . Is it the personal Skill Level from the Players, or is it the Tactics, which let him fall behind? Im neutral always by the WorldFirstRace...and a little bit this Time..i hope Liquid should win..but ist look likes to 90% now for Echo.

Pull count doesn't mean much imo when Limit chain pulls and Echo takes breaks constantly to analyse and plan, its the result of a difference in the way they play.

Limits problem appears to be consistency, and that could certainly be the result of that difference. Allowing more time for breaks in between pulls can help players focus more instead of being worn down by the constant pace, especially once progress starts slowing down and people get more frustrated with early wipes.

[Tech614]

The internal testers should be able to beat it without godmode and then buff some numbers to account for higher skill levels. It's what the XIV devs do without needing to nerf content post-release.

XIV does not have what is basically an esports scene with pro paid players trying to kill it's content as fast as possible. This is in no way comparable, if blizzard wanted to kill the RWF entirely this would be the move because it's only become as big as it is because of how difficult it is and to get that things are always going to be overtuned and adjusted as they get data from literal pro players on those bosses.

Blizzard clearly likes the exposure and attention the race gives which is why this happens and then they nerf the bosses to be killable by the regular non super sweaty mythic guilds over the coming weeks and months once the race is over. If it was like XIV that would be the tuning from the start, the RWF would be a joke to guilds like this and the exposure and attention of the race would die off.

[Collected]

If by "fair shot" you mean "one guild gets the hotfix at the start of their 14-hour day, the other guild gets it with 5 hours left"

But yeah, there isn't really a good way to do it, especially since Blizzard is also 1. basically shut down for the holidays already; and 2. also bound by US time zones for their own office hours.

It would suck either way.

If they get the fix in early enough, like, 8AM PST.. 5PM CET.. I think both guilds will get a good shot at the kill. Especially if Echo know it's dying that evening which gives them a reason to play past their usual cut off time into the early hours. There is no perfect solution unfortunately but that's as fair as I think they can make it.

[Megor96]

XIV does not have what is basically an esports scene with pro paid players trying to kill it's content as fast as possible. This is in no way comparable, if blizzard wanted to kill the RWF entirely this would be the move because it's only become as big as it is because of how difficult it is and to get that things are always going to be overtuned and adjusted as they get data from literal pro players on those bosses.

Blizzard clearly likes the exposure and attention the race gives which is why this happens and then they nerf the bosses to be killable by the regular non super sweaty mythic guilds over the coming weeks and months once the race is over. If it was like XIV that would be the tuning from the start, the RWF would be a joke to guilds like this and the exposure and attention of the race would die off.

But they're nerfing the fights during the race. This is a two-horse race where the horses are running into a brick wall until the organizers put some cracks in it. Is the only way to make the WFR interesting by making the first 200 pulls meaningless because of overtuning? Also, they could just make a genuinely super hard fight like the latest ultimate that took the best group hundreds of pulls to kill.

[Tech614]

But they're nerfing the fights during the race. This is a two-horse race where the horses are running into a brick wall until the organizers put some cracks in it. Is the only way to make the WFR interesting by making the first 200 pulls meaningless because of overtuning? Also, they could just make a genuinely super hard fight like the latest ultimate that took the best group hundreds of pulls to kill.

Yes, because they can't buff things during a race. Not sure what you aren't understanding about this, thing will always be on the overtuned end for this event to exist as is because the alternative in undertuned is way worse if you like these events as they are. It's impossible for blizzard to tune this unless they straight up hire the guilds to test the raid, otherwise they have to wait until they see the data from them progressing on them before that it's pure guess work which will always be on the high end because the low end is worse.

First 200 pulls are hardly meaningless just because something is overtuned, there is still plenty of data to gather and phases that are doable to optimize. This is a terrible take. Most of the wipes have been in phase 1 ffs which was barely effected by the nerfs outside of the overall hp nerf.

[Megor96]

Yes, because they can't buff things during a race. Not sure what you aren't understanding about this, thing will always be on the overtuned end for this event to exist as is because the alternative in undertuned is way worse if you like these events as they are.

Why does it have to be undetruned? A fight can be made incredibly hard for the very best in the game while still being killable without nerfs. Blizzard just aren't capable of it.

[Makabreska]

Why does it have to be undetruned? A fight can be made incredibly hard for the very best in the game while still being killable without nerfs. Blizzard just aren't capable of it.

I mean, sure. It can. They may need like 3-4 weeks and 1k+ pulls, but they may still beat the boss w/o the nerfs. IF they wont collapse due to exhaustion and burnout. You think this is a good design?

[Biomega]

Is the only way to make the WFR interesting by making the first 200 pulls meaningless because of overtuning?

It can be harder than you think to distinguish between something that's overtuned and undoable, and something that's just really really hard.

The old "mathematically impossible" meme rears its head, where that call has been disproven several times by people managing things thought impossible. Or take a boss like Uu'nat that was several hundred pulls longer than most endbosses, but was not impossible to do.

They like to err on the side of caution, because it's better to have guilds run into a wall for a bit than have the race end abruptly because something was too easy.