Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[lllll]

Maybe you haven't read the discussion, but we were speaking about if people will improve if you just blame them and leave them feeling like shit, not about if harder content appeal to more players. But thanks for the insight mate.

Maybe you should realize what he's talking about.

Players don't get better.

[Zardas]

Maybe you should realize what he's talking about.

Players don't get better.

I don't know how Tiwtter works : how do you find the original comment this comment is responding to ?

[Jester Joe]

Maybe you should realize what he's talking about.

Players don't get better.

That isn't the point and it's not comparable.

Back in Cataclysm, to get to raid at launch you had to do heroic dungeons. The sheer difficulty of completing them with random strangers wasn't something people were willing to deal with. Not that people aren't willing to learn, especially when M+ appeals to different people than heroic dungeons do.

[bullseyed]

This makes it sound like you think no one ever leaves groups for the most stupidest of things.

Granted I've cut down on people who do that when I stop inviting people who are obviously far over the io score for that key and are just trying to fish for a trinket or something.

The opposite does happen of course, people join a key thinking it will be smooth and ends up obviously being a group out of their element, but both sides have to be acknowledged.

If someone is joining to fish for the trinket, they have little reason to leave. Unless its going to be a 45 minute +2.

People fishing gear have full motivation to complete the key and are therefore the best to invite.

[leorana]

I don't understand how there are no repercussions if someone leaves the M+ group (for various reasons) and messes up someone else's key.

In PvP if you leave nobody loses anything else but time and your spot can be replaced by someone else and you still get deserter, in M+ nothing.

Literally, nobody is trying in M+ anymore because they don't have to. If people would get a 30 minutes deserter for leaving an M+ group, people would try harder to finish a key even if it will be depleted or barely in time.

Is it just me, or?

deserter debuff isn't gonna cut it.

people intentionally gimping your key is toxic and needs to be addressed, however you have to distinguish players who make a slight effort and yet group can't handle the key.

imho, if a player sticks for either 15 mins or trash is cleared until first boss - no penalty.
if a player leaves your group - keystone stays the same (no downgrade)
if a player deliberately leave or gimping your key - reduce HIS(!) keystone to the current run keystone minus one and add a 30 mins warning on raider.io so people will know which players to avoid.

not a 100% proof solution, but it will largely reduce this behaviour.

edit:

also, I would add a freeze-timer when a player leaves - provided that you could only replace to a similar or lower ilvl player (to avoid abusing and kicking higher ilvl players instead of the hand you we're originally dealt)

[Simulacrum]

This makes it sound like you think no one ever leaves groups for the most stupidest of things.

Granted I've cut down on people who do that when I stop inviting people who are obviously far over the io score for that key and are just trying to fish for a trinket or something.

The opposite does happen of course, people join a key thinking it will be smooth and ends up obviously being a group out of their element, but both sides have to be acknowledged.

you cut down on people leaving for stupid reasons when you removed the most qualified ones who are also most likely to stay? what utterly bizarre logic

the worst ones to invite are the ones who care about timing the key. the best ones to invite are people who need gear like trinkets from the instance

[Azharok]

That isn't the point and it's not comparable.

Back in Cataclysm, to get to raid at launch you had to do heroic dungeons. The sheer difficulty of completing them with random strangers wasn't something people were willing to deal with. Not that people aren't willing to learn, especially when M+ appeals to different people than heroic dungeons do.

But there were no alternatives to heroics dungeons in Cata (unless you want to count normal dungeons)

There are alternatives to M+, there's actually far more alternatives than their ever was. If you can't do a 27, you might be able to do a 24 or a 20 or a 12 etc.

I doubt many people spend their day spamming heroic dungeons, they must at least dip their toes in M+ (be it +2 or +5s), you can improve, and get better both in skill and in gear by running on the M+ treadmill.

I'm gonna add another personnal anecdote to this thread,

Just timed a 13 TNO with two guildmates (same Rdrood and WW monk). We had a pug BM and ENH player. Over the span of the key there was a collective of 16 deaths (including a wipe on last boss after desperately trying to solo the last 20% got it to 9% and died <_<).

I as tank, was second DPS overall, in a Nokud Offensive, where most packs have at least 4-5 targets. We timed it with 30 seconds remaining. I pointed out some errors, gave instructions, being very polite and nice about it, I don't mind dying or wiping, just don't make a habit out of it. Enh was happy with the whole thing, but he did die 6 out of the 16 deaths, was dead last dps.

I hope they get better at the game, I truly do. But I don't think they have a shot at KSM if they don't get better.

[Jester Joe]

If someone is joining to fish for the trinket, they have little reason to leave. Unless its going to be a 45 minute +2.

People fishing gear have full motivation to complete the key and are therefore the best to invite.

Compared to people who need the rating otherwise they'll have a hard time getting invited?

I'd disagree.

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you cut down on people leaving for stupid reasons when you removed the most qualified ones who are also most likely to stay? what utterly bizarre logic

the worst ones to invite are the ones who care about timing the key. the best ones to invite are people who need gear like trinkets from the instance

You get less gear by failing a timer but still getting rating unless you're extremely overtime, last I checked.

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But there were no alternatives to heroics dungeons in Cata (unless you want to count normal dungeons)

There are alternatives to M+, there's actually far more alternatives than their ever was. If you can't do a 27, you might be able to do a 24 or a 20 or a 12 etc.

That is my point though.

Generally speaking, people are seeking out m+ because they care about their performance, not that they need to be there.

[Simulacrum]

You get less gear by failing a timer but still getting rating unless you're extremely overtime, last I checked.

You do not want untimed keys to show up in your profile, it makes you look like an idiot. That matters more than the score. It's better to abandon it.

[lllll]

Generally speaking, people are seeking out m+ because they care about their performance, not that they need to be there.

No, they seek it out because they want the gear when they're as bad as the people causing leavers are. There's no way a fury warrior doing 12k dps on ancient overgrowth cares about his performance.

[Barzotti]

Generally speaking, people are seeking out m+ because they care about their performance, not that they need to be there.

Say that to the enhancement shaman who died three times to the same mechanic on the first boss in my +13 RLP. And died twice to the molten boulder afterwards.

[Zardas]

No, they seek it out because they want the gear when they're as bad as the people causing leavers are. There's no way a fury warrior doing 12k dps on ancient overgrowth cares about his performance.

Such bitterness, ever heard of people doing m+ just because they want to have fun ? No offense but you're starting to sound like a League of Legends player.

[lllll]

Such bitterness, ever heard of people doing m+ just because they want to have fun ? No offense but you're starting to sound like a League of Legends player.

How is it fun to wipe on a boss because you're doing less dps than the healer?

[leorana]

No, they seek it out because they want the gear when they're as bad as the people causing leavers are. There's no way a fury warrior doing 12k dps on ancient overgrowth cares about his performance.

pretty much this.

only people caring about their performance are players going way over 15's. everyone else are there for either gear or raider.io rating padding.

[Azharok]

That is my point though.

Generally speaking, people are seeking out m+ because they care about their performance, not that they need to be there.

If they care about their performance, why is the average player so bad at the game then ?

[Zardas]

How is it fun to wipe on a boss because you're doing less dps than the healer?

Do you have fun only when you win ?

[lllll]

Do you have fun only when you win ?

No, but I most certainly don't have fun when someone is throwing the key by doing less dps than a healer on a boss like the ancient overgrowth.

[Jester Joe]

You do not want untimed keys to show up in your profile, it makes you look like an idiot. That matters more than the score. It's better to abandon it.

So basically you're getting right back to why I wouldn't invite people who are clearly far higher than the io.

The idea that people genuinely care about what their run history says is absolute insanity.

If they care about their performance, why is the average player so bad at the game then ?

And we arrive at my original point that was completely ignored, the average player isn't what you think it is, and it certainly isn't people running m+ to push.

No, they seek it out because they want the gear when they're as bad as the people causing leavers are. There's no way a fury warrior doing 12k dps on ancient overgrowth cares about his performance.

Generally speaking isn't a single person in your run.

[Zardas]

No, but I most certainly don't have fun when someone is throwing the key by doing less dps than a healer on a boss like the ancient overgrowth.

Doesn't throwing implies a will to do harm ?

[Azharok]

And we arrive at my original point that was completely ignored, the average player isn't what you think it is, and it certainly isn't people running m+ to push.

Ok, fair, so since this season rewards scale all the way up to 20s, does that mean that we (collectively) will be plagued by "bads" until we (M+ enthusiasts) break through the 20s key threshold then ?

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Doesn't throwing implies a will to do harm ?

There's no way you're serious...

If you're doing tank DPS in anything higher than a 5, you're throwing. Intentional or not.