Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[potis]

Yes, some people do play pretty poorly, fail to avoid aoes, or don't soak, or whatever can fail timing a key, even a sub 10.
But again, is it really ok for people to ruin the experience of everyone else in the group just because they can't stand a player doing such mistake and failing the timing of a key ?

Yes if its a repeat offence, sometimes its simply not worth it, personally i have never left but i very rarely to never pug, but do tell me as example, late SL, i am joining a +6 with my Warlock cause i wanna try Destro quickly, alt is forgotten, shitty barely any gear but enough for a 2am run of a shitty key like a +6.

The druid tank, would go cat, and switch to bear after engaging, no idea what the though process was, every fight would start with him at 20-40% since the Fortified trash would smack him, and his friend premade Warlock with 30 ilvls higher than me, was doing 30% of my damage.

I should have left instantly from the first pack, i just didnt cause fuck it, 1 run before bed, what should have been a 20 minute run,became a failed +6 of 45 minutes.

After that run i decided that fuck their feelings, fuck their time, if i ever do anything similar and they are this horrible, i am simply gone.

[Anzen]

...
"Someone left my group cause we sucked ass, i better make a post about it so the mmo-champion bubble boosts my ego!"
...
Frankly, i will always be with the leavers, once every other moon i might pug a low key 5-10 on some alt at any time during the expansion, i obviously overgear it even for the alt, but i am bored and i just wanna pew pew on a spec i havent played in forever.

And its the worst experience ever every single time, we are simply playing different games with the difference in knowledge/skill/reflexes, you can tell from the first 2 pulls how the run is gonna go, i dont leave, but i sigh deeply and regret my life choices.

I know its not exactly their fault, and i know thats not what most people are experiencing, but i can assume they think around those lines also.

Also most of you make bad group choices.

Firstly, 15 year member, gz.

Secondly, agree with most of your post. It makes me wonder whether it is simply Dunning Kruger effect in action.

E.g. players that are bad don't know they are bad, so villainize the person that left as the reason the run failed, instead of addressing fact that they have got by hit by every single mechanic since the dungeon started while barely outdps'ing the tank.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, some people do play pretty poorly, fail to avoid aoes, or don't soak, or whatever can fail timing a key, even a sub 10.
But again, is it really ok for people to ruin the experience of everyone else in the group just because they can't stand a player doing such mistake and failing the timing of a key ?

Is it really ok for people to ruin the experience of everyone else in the group just because they can't spend time watching tutorial videos on youtube that might prevent them playing poorly, getting hit by aoe or not soaking.

Honestly play a healer for a couple of weeks. It is hellish in low level keys.

[potis]

Firstly, 15 year member, gz.

Secondly, agree with most of your post. It makes me wonder whether it is simply Dunning Kruger effect in action.

E.g. players that are bad don't know they are bad, so villainize the person that left as the reason the run failed, instead of addressing fact that they have got by hit by every single mechanic since the dungeon started while barely outdps'ing the tank.

Dunning Kruger effect is the number one reason all online games end up having shitty communities.

[Azharok]

Yes, some people do play pretty poorly, fail to avoid aoes, or don't soak, or whatever can fail timing a key, even a sub 10.
But again, is it really ok for people to ruin the experience of everyone else in the group just because they can't stand a player doing such mistake and failing the timing of a key ?

Idk, maybe the others 3 wanted to leave too but stuck with it because they didn't want to be seen as the bad guy ? Whenever there is a skill floor required to time any given bracket be it 5s or 25s, if you do not meet that skill floor you don't belong in higher key levels. And this isn't some elitist take. If all you can time are 7s, that's fine, have fun, get better at the game. The issue is that it's quite easy to carry bad players to 2k io, and then they sit there with their score thinking they "belong" when actually they don't, int the key for everyone, and somehow the first dude to leave is the bad guy.

The arcane mage in my AA16 apologized for being dead weight once we timed it. It was nbd, but he's gonna have a hard time in keys of that level if he doesn't get better.

[lllll]

Yes, some people do play pretty poorly, fail to avoid aoes, or don't soak, or whatever can fail timing a key, even a sub 10.
But again, is it really ok for people to ruin the experience of everyone else in the group just because they can't stand a player doing such mistake and failing the timing of a key ?

I was in a +17 temple just now, all of the dps died to the first beam on the first try. Second try 2 of them died to first beam. Third try all dps died yet again to the first beam and then the tank left just before I was going to leave.

That beam kills you even on lower keys and they're not avoiding it in a +17. Why should we stay?

[Azharok]

I was in a +17 temple just now, all of the dps died to the first beam on the first try. Second try 2 of them died to first beam. Third try all dps died yet again to the first beam and then the tank left just before I was going to leave.

That beam kills you even on lower keys and they're not avoiding it in a +17. Why should we stay?

That's some S-tier inting ...

[Zardas]

Yes if its a repeat offence, sometimes its simply not worth it, personally i have never left but i very rarely to never pug, but do tell me as example, late SL, i am joining a +6 with my Warlock cause i wanna try Destro quickly, alt is forgotten, shitty barely any gear but enough for a 2am run of a shitty key like a +6.

The druid tank, would go cat, and switch to bear after engaging, no idea what the though process was, every fight would start with him at 20-40% since the Fortified trash would smack him, and his friend premade Warlock with 30 ilvls higher than me, was doing 30% of my damage.

I should have left instantly from the first pack, i just didnt cause fuck it, 1 run before bed, what should have been a 20 minute run,became a failed +6 of 45 minutes.

After that run i decided that fuck their feelings, fuck their time, if i ever do anything similar and they are this horrible, i am simply gone.

And did you took the time to speak to him to explain his mistakes ? Did all the other player had the same feeling about it ? Do you think that a vote to abandon key system would have not helped with this issue ?

- - - Updated - - -

Is it really ok for people to ruin the experience of everyone else in the group just because they can't spend time watching tutorial videos on youtube that might prevent them playing poorly, getting hit by aoe or not soaking.

Honestly play a healer for a couple of weeks. It is hellish in low level keys.

If your experience is ruined because of people ruining the timing of a key, I suggest that you find another game.

- - - Updated - - -

Idk, maybe the others 3 wanted to leave too but stuck with it because they didn't want to be seen as the bad guy ? Whenever there is a skill floor required to time any given bracket be it 5s or 25s, if you do not meet that skill floor you don't belong in higher key levels. And this isn't some elitist take. If all you can time are 7s, that's fine, have fun, get better at the game. The issue is that it's quite easy to carry bad players to 2k io, and then they sit there with their score thinking they "belong" when actually they don't, int the key for everyone, and somehow the first dude to leave is the bad guy.

The arcane mage in my AA16 apologized for being dead weight once we timed it. It was nbd, but he's gonna have a hard time in keys of that level if he doesn't get better.

So just a vote to abandon key without penalties like it has been proposed plenty of time would solve the issue easily, wouldn't you say ?

[RobertMugabe]

The problem is that you cannot easily build such a system that can differentiate between BS reasons and legitimate reasons.

The REAL (partial) solution to this problem is a rework on the key-system itself. Like, do we really need the party leader to have a key with a certain dungeon and a certain key level which he can then upgrade (or downgrade) depending on the outcome of the dungeon or can they implement an easier way to do specific dungeons at a specific level? For example, they could just get rid of keys entirely and everyone can just do any dungeon they'd like and the level at which they can be done can be set by the party leader (but there is a cap depending on the m+ score of the PL or some some other metric, maybe if you +3 "key" a +5 dungeon, then you are elligible to run +8 for this week etc etc.).

[Zardas]

I was in a +17 temple just now, all of the dps died to the first beam on the first try. Second try 2 of them died to first beam. Third try all dps died yet again to the first beam and then the tank left just before I was going to leave.

That beam kills you even on lower keys and they're not avoiding it in a +17. Why should we stay?

Do you think that they would ever improve if people like you keep abandonning them when they make such a mistake ? Just talk to them, explain them what they do wrong, try to improve the group pulls after pulls. And if you, as a group, see that there is no way to pass the boss, just vote to abandon the key. No need to act like you do, have a stronger will and stop ruining the experience of everyone.

[erifwodahs]

So just a vote to abandon key without penalties like it has been proposed plenty of time would solve the issue easily, wouldn't you say ?

I usually play with one or 2 friends. Easy to hold people hostages. Or I can just afk or int. Do you think blizz can moderate/monitor if someone is intentionally dying or just being terrible?
They can't enforce existing rules which are pretty black and white, imagine if they had to review logs to determine if player had lags/is bad/intentionally trolls or goes afk when others do trash?

[lllll]

Do you think that they would ever improve if people like you keep abandonning them when they make such a mistake ? Just talk to them, explain them what they do wrong, try to improve the group pulls after pulls. And if you, as a group, see that there is no way to pass the boss, just vote to abandon the key. No need to act like you do, have a stronger will and stop ruining the experience of everyone.

From my experience of playing WoW since vanilla: Talking does absolutely nothing when people are that bad.

[Anzen]

And did you took the time to speak to him to explain his mistakes ? Did all the other player had the same feeling about it ? Do you think that a vote to abandon key system would have not helped with this issue ?

- - - Updated - - -

If your experience is ruined because of people ruining the timing of a key, I suggest that you find another game.

- - - Updated - - -

So just a vote to abandon key without penalties like it has been proposed plenty of time would solve the issue easily, wouldn't you say ?

I'm very interested in your replies because you seem to skilfully avoid any responsibility a bad player has in the groups failure. It reads as if you think people are entitled to be carried.

As for me, my experience isn't ruined. I'm a healer, I'll be in another group by the time your load screen goes.

I didn't sign up to carry people. With any luck, the inconvenience will prompt them to do better next time. Biting your tongue and carrying them ultimately enables their bad performance.

[Azharok]

Do you think that they would ever improve if people like you keep abandonning them when they make such a mistake ? Just talk to them, explain them what they do wrong, try to improve the group pulls after pulls. And if you, as a group, see that there is no way to pass the boss, just vote to abandon the key. No need to act like you do, have a stronger will and stop ruining the experience of everyone.

You don't play high keys do you ?

Dying to Mari's beam on a 17, outside of some sort of RNG bullshit is unacceptable. It's barely ok in a 10.

[Anzen]

Do you think that they would ever improve if people like you keep abandonning them when they make such a mistake ? Just talk to them, explain them what they do wrong, try to improve the group pulls after pulls. And if you, as a group, see that there is no way to pass the boss, just vote to abandon the key. No need to act like you do, have a stronger will and stop ruining the experience of everyone.From my experience of playing WoW since vanilla: Talking does absolutely nothing when people are that bad.

From my experience of playing WoW since vanilla: Talking does absolutely nothing when people are that bad.

Haha yes, I'd say I've also been around the block a few times... Zardas you either have literally never entered a dungeon or must live in a different universe if you think "Just talk to them, explain them what they do wrong, try to improve the group pulls after pulls" has ever worked.

This is exactly why people leave. People are naturally incredibly defensive. The usual response is nearly always "no you".

E.g. "demon hunter, try not to stand in front of the mobs, they do a frontal cleave that does a lot of damage"
"lol coming from you. stfu and heal retard"

You don't play high keys do you ?

Dying to Mari's beam on a 17, outside of some sort of RNG bullshit is unacceptable. It's barely ok in a 10.

I think Zardas has exposed himself as never setting foot inside any mythic dungeon it seems.

[erifwodahs]

This is exactly why people leave. People are naturally incredibly defensive. The usual response is nearly always "no you".

This. Had a evoker heal yesterday dying to fire from the bird boss and he was like "we need to do orbs, people get insta-killed" - we had two stacks.
I tried to explain to him that he died to avoidable dmg and he was still arguing - attempt nr2. he dies to the same shit, I CR him as pala tank, but bleed is ticking on me and I haven't had a single heal from him for over 10seconds, I die and he calls me trash tank - he has no clue how bleeds work and he doesn't even see I have one on me then he tells me "stay stuck at 2k" and leaves

[Zardas]

I usually play with one or 2 friends. Easy to hold people hostages. Or I can just afk or int. Do you think blizz can moderate/monitor if someone is intentionally dying or just being terrible?
They can't enforce existing rules which are pretty black and white, imagine if they had to review logs to determine if player had lags/is bad/intentionally trolls or goes afk when others do trash?

I obviously don't have numbers, but people raging and leaving keys as soon as a mistake is made are usually not the one playing in groups.

From my experience of playing WoW since vanilla: Talking does absolutely nothing when people are that bad.

Well, I definitely have a vastly different experience, there is plenty of times where I took the time to tell people what they did wrong, they imrpove and we finished the dungeon, not in time sure, but I made sure to add them to my friendlist later, and I had the pleasure to play with them on some other keys (granted this stuff, can happen mostly on small keys).

I'm very interested in your replies because you seem to skilfully avoid any responsibility a bad player has in the groups failure. It reads as if you think people are entitled to be carried.

Oh most definitely not : the failure is definitely on the hands of the one doing the mistake. What I'm saying is that this "failure" is not a big deal, definitely less at least than someone leaving the key out of rage at least.

As for me, my experience isn't ruined. I'm a healer, I'll be in another group by the time your load screen goes.

I didn't sign up to carry people. With any luck, the inconvenience will prompt them to do better next time. Biting your tongue and carrying them ultimately enables their bad performance.

If for you "helping other improve by not just leaving them do the same mistake keys after keys" is "carrying", well I guess we have different viison of the social aspect of this game.
And I'm pretty sure that just putting the blame on them, then quitting increasing said blame even more will definitely not prompt them to do better next time.

Haha yes, I'd say I've also been around the block a few times... Zardas you either have literally never entered a dungeon or must live in a different universe if you think "Just talk to them, explain them what they do wrong, try to improve the group pulls after pulls" has ever worked.

Damn, if you never had the joy of experiencing a group improving pulls after pulls because you took the time to act like a real leader, your wow experience must be really sad ; but I guess it would explain why you're so bitter.

I think Zardas has exposed himself as never setting foot inside any mythic dungeon it seems.

I don't know man, pretty sure my KSM mounts says otherwise. You know, the one I got by doing my part, not quitting when a player made a mistake and helping other improved.

[Azharok]

I don't know man, pretty sure my KSM mounts says otherwise. You know, the one I got by doing my part, not quitting when a player made a mistake and helping other improved.

You mean the mount that anyone serious about M+ is attained week 2 ? Some flex ...

[lllll]

Well, I definitely have a vastly different experience, there is plenty of times where I took the time to tell people what they did wrong, they imrpove and we finished the dungeon, not in time sure, but I made sure to add them to my friendlist later, and I had the pleasure to play with them on some other keys (granted this stuff, can happen mostly on small keys).

Last time I talked to someone what they were doing wrong they insisted that I help interrupting so it doesn't happen. This was on mistcaller's patty cake. I left that group after the tank got hit again and went off at me for not interrupting it.

[Ludek]

The problem is that you cannot easily build such a system that can differentiate between BS reasons and legitimate reasons.

The REAL (partial) solution to this problem is a rework on the key-system itself. Like, do we really need the party leader to have a key with a certain dungeon and a certain key level which he can then upgrade (or downgrade) depending on the outcome of the dungeon or can they implement an easier way to do specific dungeons at a specific level? For example, they could just get rid of keys entirely and everyone can just do any dungeon they'd like and the level at which they can be done can be set by the party leader (but there is a cap depending on the m+ score of the PL or some some other metric, maybe if you +3 "key" a +5 dungeon, then you are elligible to run +8 for this week etc etc.).

Diablo III Rift system then? If you want to run AV +15, you first need need to clear it on +14 at least once.
Blizz won't like it since it will allow players to gear up faster, yet on the other hand healer/tanks and to some extent high rio/ilvl DPS-es can already do that, just picking and choosing groups from the group finder.

[czarek]

I don't understand how there are no repercussions if someone leaves the M+ group (for various reasons) and messes up someone else's key.

In PvP if you leave nobody loses anything else but time and your spot can be replaced by someone else and you still get deserter, in M+ nothing.

Literally, nobody is trying in M+ anymore because they don't have to. If people would get a 30 minutes deserter for leaving an M+ group, people would try harder to finish a key even if it will be depleted or barely in time.

Is it just me, or?

Its not random formed group so im not sure. Except this i havent been impacted by any leaver in DF so far. Got some in SL but most were in season one and very minor. Keyholder is gettin the key just deplated isnt that a big issue. Penalty deserter for 1st leaver ? or any ? thats the question. Imo deserter could be here but we would also need vote disband team. Sometimes you wanna leave or someone want because there is no chance you will finish it with this team. Because of just bad players in OR which is worst imo u ill spend 2 hours in one unfinished dungeon. Its not heroic or normal when you dont need any rotation and perception skills. Thats why random have deserter and m+ not.