Blizzard and NetEase fallout - how big is the impact?

[Soon-TM]

So he wasn't charged with rape and didn't hide in a embassy for years?

Did chealsea manning not obtain those files illegally?

What part is propaganda and how did it really happen according to you?

He was charged with rape, but he didn't actually rape anyone. For sweet baby Murloc Jesus, the woman supposedly being raped disproved the accusation, and as a matter of fact, Assange wasn't convicted by rape, neither in Sweden nor in the US, go figure.

He did live in an embassy for years, but he wasn't "hiding". He was just asking for asylum, as any person would if they thought that the government was after them for political causes. Much like Snowden had to do when he shared his data... US drones (no, not the flying ones, the ones who breath and eat) are right when they condemn Chinese Orwellian surveillance systems, but don't say a word when their own government does something VERY similar.

And yes, Manning obtained the information illegally... But we're discussing Assange (and many other similar, but less known cases). Assange published verified, truthful information, he didn't steal it or anything.

So yes, you are a text example of how propaganda can twist facts, generally by smearing those who won't eat it (and have a high enough profile). As I said before, it would be a crime had it happened in China, which would be correct - but so should be anywhere else. Enough of double standards.

[Le Conceptuel]

He was charged with rape, but he didn't actually rape anyone. For sweet baby Murloc Jesus, the woman supposedly being raped disproved the accusation, and as a matter of fact, Assange wasn't convicted by rape, neither in Sweden nor in the US, go figure.

He did live in an embassy for years, but he wasn't "hiding". He was just asking for asylum, as any person would if they thought that the government was after them for political causes. Much like Snowden had to do when he shared his data... US drones (no, not the flying ones, the ones who breath and eat) are right when they condemn Chinese Orwellian surveillance systems, but don't say a word when their own government does something VERY similar.

Again, this is false equivalence—the proof is right here. In a totalitarian dictatorship, we would not be able to access Assange's website and freely peruse this kind of data after it has already been revealed with absolutely no fear of consequences. I'm making no effort to deny that Assange, Snowden, Manning etc. were greatly mistreated and that the United States has plenty of issues with surveillance and censorship, but applying sweeping whataboutisms along the lines of "this highly flawed but still relatively free democracy has censorship and injustice, so the far worse censorship and injustice in China isn't relevant" is ridiculously disingenuous.

[Soon-TM]

Again, this is false equivalence—the proof is right here. In a totalitarian dictatorship, we would not be able to access Assange's website and freely peruse this kind of data after it has already been revealed with absolutely no fear of consequences. I'm making no effort to deny that Assange, Snowden, Manning etc. were greatly mistreated and that the United States has plenty of issues with surveillance and censorship, but applying sweeping whataboutisms along the lines of "this highly flawed but still relatively free democracy has censorship and injustice, so the far worse censorship and injustice in China isn't relevant" is ridiculously disingenuous.

The whole point I'm trying to convey is that if you are going to point fingers at someone else, at least make sure that your closet isn't riddled with skeletons. Mindlessly yelling "but they are worse!" doesn't really do you any favours, even if it's true.

[Skildar]

We've recently have a lot of Chinese players on british realms. Did you notice some on the american ones as well or do you think that most of them players went to the european realms?

[Orange Joe]

He was charged with rape, but he didn't actually rape anyone. For sweet baby Murloc Jesus, the woman supposedly being raped disproved the accusation, and as a matter of fact, Assange wasn't convicted by rape, neither in Sweden nor in the US, go figure.

He did live in an embassy for years, but he wasn't "hiding". He was just asking for asylum, as any person would if they thought that the government was after them for political causes. Much like Snowden had to do when he shared his data... US drones (no, not the flying ones, the ones who breath and eat) are right when they condemn Chinese Orwellian surveillance systems, but don't say a word when their own government does something VERY similar.

And yes, Manning obtained the information illegally... But we're discussing Assange (and many other similar, but less known cases). Assange published verified, truthful information, he didn't steal it or anything.

So yes, you are a text example of how propaganda can twist facts, generally by smearing those who won't eat it (and have a high enough profile). As I said before, it would be a crime had it happened in China, which would be correct - but so should be anywhere else. Enough of double standards.

You are not making sense. You go on about how he is a saint that hasn't broke any laws. Then say it would be a crime in china which is correct? And this is somehow proof that Western/US media is just as bad..?

- - - Updated - - -

The whole point I'm trying to convey is that if you are going to point fingers at someone else, at least make sure that your closet isn't riddled with skeletons. Mindlessly yelling "but they are worse!" doesn't really do you any favours, even if it's true.

Who is mindlessly yelling it? We have actual evidence proving they are worse.

Meanwhile you are actually mindlessy replying. Hur dur..., but merica bad too.

[Le Conceptuel]

The whole point I'm trying to convey is that if you are going to point fingers at someone else, at least make sure that your closet isn't riddled with skeletons. Mindlessly yelling "but they are worse!" doesn't really do you any favours, even if it's true.

Again, "no u" is not a legitimate reason not to say "I dislike the evil communist dictatorship and consider their news media untrustworthy". If I slapped an orphan across the face and you stabbed one in the heart, I would still be wholly justified in expressing horror at your orphan-murdering ways even on account of my enjoyment of a nice orphan-slapping. Not only are you making false equivalences, you are boiling down legitimate criticism to "NOOOOO but you did bad things too!"

[Soon-TM]

you are actually mindlessy replying. Hur dur..., but merica bad too.

This part is downright hilarious

We've recently have a lot of
Chinese players on british realms. Did you notice some on the american ones as well or do you think that most of them players went to the european realms?

Well, they have little choice now if they want to continue playing :/

[Le Conceptuel]

Who is mindlessly yelling it? We have actual evidence proving they are worse.

Meanwhile you are actually mindlessy replying. Hur dur..., but merica bad too.

Exactly my feelings. I'm never one to defend the U.S. where it does truly overstep its boundaries, and I believe it does quite frequently, but I think that it's a great act of false equivalence to say "well, this corrupt and sometimes illiberal democracy is bad, too, so you can't say that the communist dictatorship is bad."

It's the tu quoque fallacy—alleging that you can't criticize something bad because you also do bad things. The other party's misdeeds do not render their misgivings illegitimate.

[Soon-TM]

Again, "no u" is not a legitimate reason not to say "I dislike the evil communist dictatorship and consider their news media untrustworthy". If I slapped an orphan across the face and you stabbed one in the heart, I would still be wholly justified in expressing horror at your orphan-murdering ways even on account of my enjoyment of a nice orphan-slapping. Not only are you making false equivalences, you are boiling down legitimate criticism to "NOOOOO but you did bad things too!"

Reading comprehension issues, I see. Remember the whole thing about "he who is free of sin may throw the first stone"? That's what I mean... Tu quoque, sure

[Orange Joe]

Reading comprehension issues, I see. Remember the whole thing about "he who is free of sin may throw the first stone"? That's what I mean... Tu quoque, sure

Lets not bring religion into this. I am atheist so the bible means no more to me than the book battlefield earth. Not to mention it's not allowed.

Last I checked I am not the US government. So.....

[Le Conceptuel]

Reading comprehension issues, I see. Remember the whole thing about "he who is free of sin may throw the first stone"?

I think you're misunderstanding the intent of that verse. Not being able to murder someone else for doing something you might well do yourself is not the same as not being allowed to express grievance with a totalitarian dictatorship because your own government does bad things. And, again, you're committing a form of false equivalence—I once again return to my analogy of orphan-slapping and orphan-killing. The United States is definitely inclined to beat a few orphans now and again, but that doesn't mean that U.S. citizens can't express horror when someone slits the throat of an orphan.

[Triceron]

Exactly my feelings. I'm never one to defend the U.S. where it does truly overstep its boundaries, and I believe it does quite frequently, but I think that it's a great act of false equivalence to say "well, this corrupt and sometimes illiberal democracy is bad, too, so you can't say that the communist dictatorship is bad."

It's the tu quoque fallacy—alleging that you can't criticize something bad because you also do bad things. The other party's misdeeds do not render their misgivings illegitimate.

But what wrongdoings were there in the Chinese news outlet reporting on what Netease did, and in wishing everyone have a Happy New Year? They're obviously lying about it because they're run by a dictatorship? Or we should believe the whole incident didn't actually happen because they are not to be trusted?

I'm not sure what about China government being evil has to do with anything in this particular case. It's literally a matter of bringing up unrelated misdeeds of a governmental body into a conversation that doesn't actually involve the government. Are we supposed to assume that this whole Netease breakdown was a product of dictatorship intervention in some way?

The Chinese news outlet reported on Netease's claims, and reported that Netease destroyed a statue. Oh, and Netease's snarky 'Green tea' response. I don't see what a dictatorship has to do with anything here.

[Soon-TM]

I think you're misunderstanding the intent of that verse. Not being able to murder someone else for doing something you might well do yourself is not the same as not being allowed to express grievance with a totalitarian dictatorship because your own government does bad things. And, again, you're committing a form of false equivalence—I once again return to my analogy of orphan-slapping and orphan-killing. The United States is definitely inclined to beat a few orphans now and again, but that doesn't mean that U.S. citizens can't express horror when someone slits the throat of an orphan.

I understand your point, and I share it wholeheartedly. But going back to the thread's subject, there was a business dispute between Blizzard and NE, that's the factual part. But many people jumped at it saying that the NE folks were all assholes (which could very well be true, they've given reasons to believe it) while Blizzard was as pure as freshly fallen snow, which could very well be true... although they've been swimming in scandals until very recently. It's the last part that I find really irksome.

[Triceron]

I understand your point, and I share it wholeheartedly. But going back to the thread's subject, there was a business dispute between Blizzard and NE, that's the factual part. But many people jumped at it saying that the NE folks were all assholes (which could very well be true, they've given reasons to believe it) while Blizzard was as pure as freshly fallen snow, which could very well be true... although they've been swimming in scandals until very recently. It's the last part that I find really irksome.

This is what I'm finding as well, after jumping into this thread.

Not sure why everyone just doesn't maintain impartiality, considering we literally do not know who is to blame for what here. There's nothing to assume either side bearing full responsibility, and these correlations to Chinese dictatorship has nothing to do with anything considering Blizzard is still looking to continue operations in there...

[Orange Joe]

But what wrongdoings were there in the Chinese news outlet reporting on what Netease did, and in wishing everyone have a Happy New Year? They're obviously lying about it because they're run by a dictatorship? Or we should believe the whole incident didn't actually happen because they are not to be trusted?

I'm not sure what about China government being evil has to do with anything in this particular case. It's literally a matter of bringing up unrelated misdeeds of a governmental body into a conversation that doesn't actually involve the government. Are we supposed to assume that this whole Netease breakdown was a product of dictatorship intervention in some way?

The Chinese news outlet reported on Netease's claims, and reported that Netease destroyed a statue. Oh, and Netease's snarky 'Green tea' response. I don't see what a dictatorship has to do with anything here.

This is what I'm finding as well, after jumping into this thread.

Not sure why everyone just doesn't maintain impartiality, considering we literally do not know who is to blame for what here. There's nothing to assume either side bearing full responsibility, and these correlations to Chinese dictatorship has nothing to do with anything considering Blizzard is still looking to continue operations in there...

Where did I ever say there were wrongdoings? I only said I don't believe them outright. I don't believe blizzards story outright either. At no point have I said blizzard did no wrong and the Chinese are 100% lying.

[Triceron]

Where did I ever say there were wrongdoings? I only said I don't believe them outright. I don't believe blizzards story outright either. At no point have I said blizzard did no wrong and the Chinese are 100% lying.

where did I say I was talking about you specifically?

[Orange Joe]

where did I say I was talking about you specifically?

This is what I'm finding as well, after jumping into this thread.

Not sure why everyone just doesn't maintain impartiality, considering we literally do not know who is to blame for what here. There's nothing to assume either side bearing full responsibility, and these correlations to Chinese dictatorship has nothing to do with anything considering Blizzard is still looking to continue operations in there...

Who in this thread was just discussing this topic? there were only 4 of us so who else could you be talking about?

[Triceron]

Who in this thread was just discussing this topic? there were only 4 of us so who else could you be talking about?

Rray, Le Conceptual, Swnem.

The other people who are seemingly arguing what you specifically are not?

There's plenty more than 4 people who have chimed in on considering Netease being in the wrong (because of Chinese government or not) without impartiality on the matter. Greenjesus and Tidalconflux included here.

I'm clarifying this wasn't aimed specifically at you.

[Kathranis]

Did chealsea manning not obtain those files illegally?

Who fucking cares? She was bringing to light war crimes.

Whistleblowers should be protected, not prosecuted.

Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's immoral. Especially when the laws are designed to protect those in power from facing the consequences of their own criminal conduct.

[Orange Joe]

Who fucking cares? She was bringing to light war crimes.

Whistleblowers should be protected, not prosecuted.

Just because something is illegal doesn't mean it's immoral. Especially when the laws are designed to protect those in power from facing the consequences of their own criminal conduct.

What did she whistleblow on? Oh that is right. A misidentification leading to a attack on a battlefield. Such a horrible crime...

I never brought morals into this.

Edward snowden was a whistleblower. Chealsea manning was a rat.