My"I'm still salty about survival" post

[Kehego]

Degree of controversy matters when you state one choice to be better than the other. You must consider the consequences before you can elevate any decision.

Beside that, BM must be a top3 contender for most played spec post-legion or some shit. That spec is always densely populated even when it is underperforming. If they made it melee that spec would... never have existed. That's your ''better'' choice and ''wasted opportunity'' by the way, and not just yours, but of many people. It's quite laughable tbh. Thinking like that is what made sv melee in the first place.

also, underperforming by what metric? In low level content BM is the best spec, period. BM usually sims very poorly but because you can actually execute it to at least 70% efficiency it tends to dominate when other people are struggling to eke out 50% of their theoretical performance.

If people thought that the ultimate casual spec, reaching as far back as vanilla, would be gutted in the way SV was, you're high.


On topic though, SV has been a dot heavy spec for its last ranged iterations and I don't think you can just bandage marks to be SV. Old explosive, trap, sting was a fairly different damage profile and I do wish it would make a return, but if it doesn't, it's whatever... I no longer main hunter so idc tbh.

Melee SV as of BFA though, kinda has taken up its own identity and whilst I would vastly prefer having MoP/WoD SV, I would miss BFA/SL/DF SV if it were gone.

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Simple. Blizzards reasoning for changing was originally that all 3 specs felt the same and were too similar. MM was basically a physical burst turret caster... If i wanted to play a caster i would play a caster (guess what.. i don't play casters). BM is a spec that feels like it does no damage and heavily relies on the pet. To each their own on that one, if thats what you like then so be it. Survival was a Bow class that focused on consistent magic damage. the feel of the 3 specs felt nothing alike. that is why.

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i wasnt suggesting they do that. i was saying a tank spec at least would have been a better option seeing as there are no mail based tank specs and it is named SURVIVAL which would make sense as a tank spec name.

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I actually thought about that at some point too. using javelin as its weapon instead of bow, but at the same time, i like bows.

i mean, no not really, how does surviving = tank? Surviving is laying down in a corner and pretending to be dead

there are no cloth tanks either, armour class means absolutely nothing, never did.

[willtron]

Survival is the most fun spec yet the least damage

aged like milk

[Rajej]

their original reasoning was something along the lines of "the 3 specs feel to similar". To which the hunter community playing survival at the time told them they were wrong. As for the melee part. Even in vanilla and bc when you went survival just because the extra agi talent made it better in later tiers, noone really took the melee tanlents outside of like improved wing clip.

What commuity? Ranged survival was the worst hunter specc for raiding throughout most of it's existence. EXCEPT for classic naxxramas (which less than 1% of players experienced) and two whole raid bosses in cataclysm.
Not sure about pvp - but in pve, it was the least played hunter specc for that reason. The survival hunter community was even smaller than the feral druid community.

Blizzard knew this. They tried a few things, but in the end realized there wasn't a fix without making it overpowered. And even then it would have been just another marksman-like playstyle (ranged survival always depended on aimed shot). So they found another solution, and changed it to something completely different. Now it's a fun melee specc. The only pet-melee in game, even! It's still the least played hunter specc, but that's not a change to before. The only change is that today it's an actually different playstyle.

[F Rm]

What commuity? Ranged survival was the worst hunter specc for raiding throughout most of it's existence. EXCEPT for classic naxxramas (which less than 1% of players experienced) and two whole raid bosses in cataclysm.
Not sure about pvp - but in pve, it was the least played hunter specc for that reason. The survival hunter community was even smaller than the feral druid community.

Not sure where you got any of this from, but it couldn't be further from the truth. The playstyle people refer to when they talk about ranged survival/RSV, was first implemented in WotLK. It's pointless including hunter class design from before Wrath in such comparisons because that era did not heed to any philosophies similar to what we have today, where the goal is to provide multiple dedicated core playstyles/identities to choose between.

As for the PvE angle, again, not sure what you base that on, but historical data and statistics do not back you up on your claim. In fact, if you look at PvE representation for the class(prior to Legion, and the melee rework), Survival had the highest median representation of all 3 hunter specs. You can check any site which stores this data/stats, and you'll find it to be true.

Ironically, if you base your claim solely on the era prior to WotLK, or what Survival has been since Legion, and the melee rework, you would be correct.

They tried a few things, but in the end realized there wasn't a fix without making it overpowered.

Feel free to elaborate on what you meant here. Without any specifics, that's a meaningless statement.

And even then it would have been just another marksman-like playstyle (ranged survival always depended on aimed shot). So they found another solution, and changed it to something completely different. Now it's a fun melee specc. The only pet-melee in game, even! It's still the least played hunter specc, but that's not a change to before. The only change is that today it's an actually different playstyle.

First off, ranged survival never had Aimed Shot as a part of it's core design. Aimed Shot is, and have always been a MM ability. Sure, prior to Cataclysm you could spend points in the MM category to get Aimed Shot as well, but that's irrelevant to any argument of how "it made survival into a MM like playstyle".

Secondly, as for your point of how "ranged survival always depended on aimed shot", that statement is categorically false. Why? From the moment they actually added core specializations into the game, in Cataclysm, ranged survival had no option to even get Aimed Shot.

And then, thirdly, regarding your statement about how current SV is the only pet-melee in the game, Unholy DK says hi.

[Donkeywing]

What commuity? Ranged survival was the worst hunter specc for raiding throughout most of it's existence. EXCEPT for classic naxxramas (which less than 1% of players experienced) and two whole raid bosses in cataclysm.
Not sure about pvp - but in pve, it was the least played hunter specc for that reason.

Hardcore falsification. You're not the first one to do this and you won't be the last. Your kind will say anything.

[Hctaz]

I sadly also dont like the other 2 ranged specs any more. I never really liked the idea of relying on my pet to do a lot of my damage and if i wanted to sit still and cast an ability (aimed shot) i would play a caster (which i dont do becasue i dont like casting). I liked Survival during cata and mop because it was mobile and i didnt have to just plant myself.

Honestly the first sentence I quoted from you is the reason I don't play retail anymore.

The overhauls in Legion were okayish for the most part, but I think that there were a lot of specs who completely lost their identity.

I had hopium at first as a long time Frost DK main that they would improve the spec going into the next expansion, but they doubled down and made some of the more annoying "temporary" abilities permanent ones (Chains of Ice stacking a damage buff for example).

Haven't been a fan at all of the class design in Dragonflight. I legit don't feel like I could come back and have a good time playing just about any of the specs I've enjoyed in the past. Some specs just have too many buttons, and others have just unfun mechanics or interactions.

[Kehego]

Hardcore falsification. You're not the first one to do this and you won't be the last. Your kind will say anything.

Lol I dunno where these people come from

SV was always the "high sustained aoe high sustained ST, but low burst" option and probably had the most consistent damage profile out of all the hunter specs

HFC was the first tier since Explosive shot SV was in the game that SV was bad, and that was because it was intentionally broken

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Honestly the first sentence I quoted from you is the reason I don't play retail anymore.

The overhauls in Legion were okayish for the most part, but I think that there were a lot of specs who completely lost their identity.

I had hopium at first as a long time Frost DK main that they would improve the spec going into the next expansion, but they doubled down and made some of the more annoying "temporary" abilities permanent ones (Chains of Ice stacking a damage buff for example).

Haven't been a fan at all of the class design in Dragonflight. I legit don't feel like I could come back and have a good time playing just about any of the specs I've enjoyed in the past. Some specs just have too many buttons, and others have just unfun mechanics or interactions.

i mean frost dk was ruined in toc patch when they introduced threat of thassarian and it kinda never recovered since then

[Hctaz]

i mean frost dk was ruined in toc patch when they introduced threat of thassarian and it kinda never recovered since then

I was worried that my only reply in this thread was going to be something stupid, but I actually 100% agree with you.

Wrath was my "first" expansion (I had played WoW before but like... my max level in Vanilla was 20 and my max level in TBC was 24 so...), and it's by far been my least favorite Classic Experience. The design choices just suck. Titan's Grip kinda lame IMO, and it feels like they replaced Fury warrior with Frost DK.

And actually... sad thing is pretty much every spec (blood tank, Frost or Unholy DPS) in Wrath right now is dual wielding.

Whoever decided DKs should dual wield was wrong for sure lol


Not to say that every single thing in Wrath was wrong or bad, but I just am not a fan of the general changes to many aspects of the game.

[Kallisto]

What commuity? Ranged survival was the worst hunter specc for raiding throughout most of it's existence. EXCEPT for classic naxxramas (which less than 1% of players experienced) and two whole raid bosses in cataclysm.
Not sure about pvp - but in pve, it was the least played hunter specc for that reason. The survival hunter community was even smaller than the feral druid community.

Blizzard knew this. They tried a few things, but in the end realized there wasn't a fix without making it overpowered. And even then it would have been just another marksman-like playstyle (ranged survival always depended on aimed shot). So they found another solution, and changed it to something completely different. Now it's a fun melee specc. The only pet-melee in game, even! It's still the least played hunter specc, but that's not a change to before. The only change is that today it's an actually different playstyle.

Ranged SV never truly had Aimed shot as the core attack, it was built mostly around dots and keeping a sustained DPS. During Cata and MoP it was nearly always outdpsing Marksman. The only time you really had to go MM was 10-man Shannox because of the Rageface mechanic where you needed a 40k crit to have Rageface jump off a downed character. With SV it wasn't really doable with either explosive (which was a fire dot at the time, not an actual AoE explosion) shot or arcane shot. It needed Aimed Shot to do so at a consistent level. Other than that you really would be ok with either SV or Marksman depending on the style you preferred. The reason why 10-man and not 25-man is because well with 10-man you might be the only other range character. SV not only being viable but preferable lasted essentially until like Demonology Blizzard nerfed the hell out of the spec because they were rebuilding it for Legion and they didn't want us to play it.

The only real similarity between MM and SV was it was a range spec with a bow. If that's the case then all range casters are basically the same spec. For me being truly mobile and during early WoD before it was gutted was far more superior than today's two ranged hunter specs where in one you have to hope pet AI isn't beyond stupid, or with Marksman hope that your one main attack doesn't coincide with a mechanic pointing at you, nerfing the hell out of your dps if you're unlucky.

[Alteiry]

The big mistake here wasn't giving hunters a melee spec, it was making Survival the melee spec instead of BM. In WC3, Beastmaster heroes like Rexxar were melee heroes, so BM being melee makes more thematic sense than Survival. The only rationale behind making Survival the melee spec in Legion was that Survival was the "melee" spec in Classic.

[threads]

The big mistake here wasn't giving hunters a melee spec, it was making Survival the melee spec instead of BM. In WC3, Beastmaster heroes like Rexxar were melee heroes, so BM being melee makes more thematic sense than Survival. The only rationale behind making Survival the melee spec in Legion was that Survival was the "melee" spec in Classic.

also because majority of bm hunters are peoples gf or grandparent and they wouldnt want to upset them.

[Kehego]

I was worried that my only reply in this thread was going to be something stupid, but I actually 100% agree with you.

Wrath was my "first" expansion (I had played WoW before but like... my max level in Vanilla was 20 and my max level in TBC was 24 so...), and it's by far been my least favorite Classic Experience. The design choices just suck. Titan's Grip kinda lame IMO, and it feels like they replaced Fury warrior with Frost DK.

And actually... sad thing is pretty much every spec (blood tank, Frost or Unholy DPS) in Wrath right now is dual wielding.

Whoever decided DKs should dual wield was wrong for sure lol


Not to say that every single thing in Wrath was wrong or bad, but I just am not a fan of the general changes to many aspects of the game.

eh like, I play with some friend on benediction and its like... dw DOES do more damage but outside hodir, it do not matter.
I'm on classic to roleplay 2h unholy lol

[Itisamuh]

As a non hunter I agree, simply because it annoys me having to get multiple weapons for the same role in a pure damage class (looking at you, outlaw) and every time I think of giving hunter a try, melee survival stares at me, killing my interest. I think it has pretty much consistently been the least played spec in the game, even when good, since the change. Blizzard needs to just gracefully accept defeat on this experiment, make it ranged again.

[Ginji]

hey guys, do you think Hunter will get a rework next expansion? I haven't enjoyed wow much since bfa cause Hunter is my main but it just doesn't feel fun
Surv was my fav spec bevor Legion and in Legion at least MM was cool but yeah...it sucks

[Donkeywing]

hey guys, do you think Hunter will get a rework next expansion? I haven't enjoyed wow much since bfa cause Hunter is my main but it just doesn't feel fun
Surv was my fav spec bevor Legion and in Legion at least MM was cool but yeah...it sucks

Unlikely. They can't even figure out specific abilities. They castrated abilities like chimaera shot and neglected it ever since. I can guarantee you if chimaera shot was the big hitting cd signature ability instead of rapid fire the spec would be more functional and fun, it's like rediscovering what we already know. Maybe also have chimaera shot interact with serpent sting in some way perhaps, could be more interesting than just applying ss whenever you cast aimed shot. Radical idea, I know.

[ryan92084]

bring back ranged survival under a different name and change survival to a melee tank+pet spec (you are the tank the pet assists). Done. I'm so tired of MM and I really miss the steady pressure of survival.

[serow081]

The big mistake here wasn't giving hunters a melee spec, it was making Survival the melee spec instead of BM. In WC3, Beastmaster heroes like Rexxar were melee heroes, so BM being melee makes more thematic sense than Survival. The only rationale behind making Survival the melee spec in Legion was that Survival was the "melee" spec in Classic.

Ya that's what I prefer too. Make BM the dual-wield (not polearm) melee spec, MM the lone wolf sniper, and SV the mid-range (like Evoker) skirmisher with traps pets shotgun.

[Nessa-fm]

For me, at least, the last version of the range SV hunter was just a witcher with beasts instant of demons ... spreading dots, casting one, two shots ... witcher spreading dots, casting one, two bolds ... SAME. ... BOORING

To have three similar range specs makes no sense at all. It was OK for times when you were able to play hybrid. But today... the melee fits fantastic.

So if you like the old range SV ... just play witcher, spread your dots and cast chaos bolds ...

[LordVargK]

For me, at least, the last version of the range SV hunter was just a witcher with beasts instant of demons ... spreading dots, casting one, two shots ... witcher spreading dots, casting one, two bolds ... SAME. ... BOORING

To have three similar range specs makes no sense at all. It was OK for times when you were able to play hybrid. But today... the melee fits fantastic.

So if you like the old range SV ... just play witcher, spread your dots and cast chaos bolds ...

The correct english term you're looking for is "warlock".

[Utrrabbit]

Bliz needs to just make survival into a ranged spec again. In heroic Vault, Survial has 10k parses which is over 1/20th of the parses of BM (220k) and MM (260k) over the last 2 weeks. It has the lowest number of parses per spec in the game with the next one being fire mage at 22k which is over double what SV is. You cant even argue that the damage is why noone plays it. The damage is about the same as BM is and is hovering around the middle of the pack. the reason is just that people who play hunter (for the most part) don't want to play a melee character.

Survival is one of the better specs currenty.

It is in the top portion of the 50% for heroic which is where you need to get your data from.

The vast majority of raiders run only up to heroic and you want the median % which is the 50%. Survival is near the top 3.

Never use mythic raiding as a metric as only 1% of players run mythic at any point. It is much to small a sample size to use. Whereas about 40% run lfr/normal and the other 59% run heroic.