Bored after 2 months of DF

[Sinx]

It's me telling you that Group Leaders never cared about what your AP level is. Ilvl and raider.io score have always been all that mattered.

Wrong. You get/got booted (or not invited) if you have the wrong spec, if you have the wrong talents, if you were missing a specific legendary, if you didn't have optimal azerite traits, if you were missing vital talents in the artifact weapons etc etc. As well as ilvl and raider.io score of course.

[JustaRandomReindeer]

I'm still waiting for the arguments for why making people do content they don't want to do is a good idea. From about 10 pages back. And god please don't start with the sales numbers again, cause they're quite irrelevant metrics compared to the massive dropoff in the player base during both BfA and Shadowlands. Legion was a good expansion overall, sure, and it even increased the player base through the expansion, but to credit that to AP grinds, when far more frequent content releases and the introduction of M+ were likely far more significant contributions to that. But I guess it's just easier making up your own reality, coming up with random numbers and pretend you're speaking on behalf of the majority of players. It's been quite interesting to read. And again, it's not just Echo and Liquid that play WoW competetively you know. In fact, quite a lot of raiding guilds, pvp'ers and m+ players enjoy pushing to see how far they can get. Either they're at 3000+ rating or more casual and trying to get their KSM mount for the season. All of which would require significantly longer time if having to do daily chores. Give me _1_ good argument, why it's not a better idea to allow players to progress their character while doing the content they want to do, instead of having them do a bunch of other stuff they have no interest or joy from doing.

Ah, yes, the brilliant idea of catering only to the people who want to play a raid simulator and fucking over everyone else. See how that works out.

Going to call BS on this one. If there exists an infinite system of power gain, you had to participate in it because of the power gain. Just look at the difference between the first and second "infinite" traits that the artifacts had back in Legion.

My dude, I never grinded a day in my life and I was able to clear all Legion raids on heroic, I'm sure I would have been able to clear them on Mythic too if I cared eough to do it, without grinding. Explain to me how that miracle happened.

[BeepBoo]

Ah, yes, the brilliant idea of catering only to the people who want to play a raid simulator and fucking over everyone else. See how that works out.

Again, you people wouldn't accept your infinite power being turned off in a raid, so you're forcing the issue of making this design a "them or us" because your fucking mentality of always needing that next hit of crack is unreasonable.

Wrong. You get/got booted (or not invited) if you have the wrong spec, if you have the wrong talents, if you were missing a specific legendary, if you didn't have optimal azerite traits, if you were missing vital talents in the artifact weapons etc etc. As well as ilvl and raider.io score of course.

Note the person you're talking to never said anything about WHICH raids they were invited to, WHICH patches they were doing said raids in, etc. I can almost guarantee either they were scrub tier normal raids or one-patch-behind clears.

My dude, I never grinded a day in my life and I was able to clear all Legion raids on heroic, I'm sure I would have been able to clear them on Mythic too if I cared eough to do it, without grinding. Explain to me how that miracle happened.

You were either a patch behind the cycle OR you got fucking carried with sub-par (read: not 90th+ percentile, likely 60s or lower) parses.

[JustaRandomReindeer]

Again, you people wouldn't accept your infinite power being turned off in a raid, so you're forcing the issue of making this design a "them or us" because your fucking mentality of always needing that next hit of crack is unreasonable.



Note the person you're talking to never said anything about WHICH raids they were invited to, WHICH patches they were doing said raids in, etc. I can almost guarantee either they were scrub tier normal raids or one-patch-behind clears.



You were either a patch behind the cycle OR you got fucking carried with sub-par (read: not 90th+ percentile, likely 60s or lower) parses.

You are either being completely dishonest or you didn't play Legion and BfA at all. In either case your opinion is irrelevant to the discussion. I cleared all heroic raids in Legion and BfA. I was able to clear them with pugs too. Nobody ever checked my AP level. Nobody ever checked what traits I have unlocked. Nobody ever checked if I have the right legendary. You're just trying to galsight people with your bullshit. It doesn't work on people who have played through it tho.

[Alroxas]

My dude, I never grinded a day in my life and I was able to clear all Legion raids on heroic, I'm sure I would have been able to clear them on Mythic too if I cared enough to do it, without grinding. Explain to me how that miracle happened.

Again, we shouldn't just look at your personal experience but the experience of the player base as a whole. From Legion, BFA and SL, if there are power systems that require daily/weekly grinds for measurable power gains (outside of gearing) then players will feel compelled to do it.

Additionally, I don't believe that these systems only affect the top 2% of the player base because the numerous complaints back in Legion and BFA seems to indicate a lot of players were not happy with these "endless grinds".

Again, maybe you never experienced any of this but that's not the point, as it did happen to a sufficiently segment of the playerbase.

[BeepBoo]

You are either being completely dishonest or you didn't play Legion and BfA at all. In either case your opinion is irrelevant to the discussion. I cleared all heroic raids in Legion and BfA. I was able to clear them with pugs too. Nobody ever checked my AP level. Nobody ever checked what traits I have unlocked. Nobody ever checked if I have the right legendary. You're just trying to galsight people with your bullshit. It doesn't work on people who have played through it tho.

As a mythic raider, I also played through it. The cross-section between people who are good and have good performance and people who just flat refuse to engage in the grind because "I don't want to" is next to zero. You're not an exception. Again, either you were one patch off the current raid tier, or you were absolutely dogshit at performance. So just tell me, which is it?

inb4 "Yeah I got 50th percentile parses, but what does it matter?! I still got the kill!"

Also, would you accept your infinite power being disabled in competitive environments of raids and m+?

[Sinx]

Ah, yes, the brilliant idea of catering only to the people who want to play a raid simulator and fucking over everyone else. See how that works out.

So no arguments, just the same rambling, avoiding the question, over and over. Got it. If you ever do decide to stick on topic though, do please answer this question:

How do you prefer to progress your character ?

A) Doing the content I enjoy doing
B) Doing the content I don't enjoy doing.

[JustaRandomReindeer]

As a mythic raider, I also played through it. The cross-section between people who are good and have good performance and people who just flat refuse to engage in the grind because "I don't want to" is next to zero. You're not an exception. Again, either you were one patch off the current raid tier, or you were absolutely dogshit at performance. So just tell me, which is it?

inb4 "Yeah I got 50th percentile parses, but what does it matter?! I still got the kill!"

Also, would you accept your infinite power being disabled in competitive environments of raids and m+?

My dude, I had good enough performance to clear every raid on heroic repeatedly, even with pugs. I never forced myself to grind because I didn't need to. I wasn't aiming for cutting edge achievements. I am not one of those 2%. If you are then it sucks for you that you had to grind and the game was not just a raiding simulator. It's a mmorpg after all and if people hated the grind so much Legion wouldn't have been the most successful recent expansion.

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So no arguments, just the same rambling, avoiding the question, over and over. Got it. If you ever do decide to stick on topic though, do please answer this question:

How do you prefer to progress your character ?

A) Doing the content I enjoy doing
B) Doing the content I don't enjoy doing.

It's a pretty solid argument. We already know what happened to WoD. I don't think WoD 2.0 is going to surprise us. And, yes, the beauty of legion is that the content I enjoyed doing provided meaningful progression and rewards.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Dragonflight beats BFA and SL as one of the better expansions already. If you're bored then you've always suffered from WoW fatigue.

[BeepBoo]

My dude, I had good enough performance to clear every raid on heroic repeatedly, even with pugs.

1) were you clearing the raids when they were the newest addition to the game?
2) What was your performance like? "Good enough" is language of a loser. I want to know your approximate performance when clearing said things.

It's a mmorpg after all and if people hated the grind so much Legion wouldn't have been the most successful recent expansion.

"it's an MMO so of course it has an infinite power grind!" Except before legion, it never did. And it didn't during it's ACTUAL most popular xpac.

It's a pretty solid argument. We already know what happened to WoD. I don't think WoD 2.0 is going to surprise us. And, yes, the beauty of legion is that the content I enjoyed doing provided meaningful progression and rewards.

WOD's only problem was a lack of subsequent content (read: raids and no M+ at that time) after release. 2 raids in however long it was is simply not enough to keep even the core raiders around.

[Rageonit]

As a mythic raider, I also played through it. The cross-section between people who are good and have good performance and people who just flat refuse to engage in the grind because "I don't want to" is next to zero.

That's bullshit, I refuse to engage in any kind of grinds and my average parses for BfA were around 85 & 90 in SL (even got a few orange here and there). There are plenty of former CE raiders still playing this game who stopped caring about grinds years ago, because of work & family. They are still decent players, and the difference in performace between grinders and non-grinders is not nearly as big as people paint it (a good non-grinder is still MILES better than an average grinder). Granted, I didn't play Legion (had an extended break back then), but in BfA I've never, ever had to grind anything and it didn't affect my performance in any noticeable way.

[JustaRandomReindeer]

1) were you clearing the raids when they were the newest addition to the game?
2) What was your performance like? "Good enough" is language of a loser. I want to know your approximate performance when clearing said things.

1) Yes
2) Good enough to clear them on heroic and not get kicked out of any groups. That's all that matters to me. I am not aiming for cutting edge achievements. I don't care about min-maxing

Like I know it's surprising but the vast majority of players are not competing with world first raiders and don't really care about mythic.

"it's an MMO so of course it has an infinite power grind!" Except before legion, it never did. And it didn't during it's ACTUAL most popular xpac.


WOD's only problem was a lack of subsequent content (read: raids and no M+ at that time) after release. 2 raids in however long it was is simply not enough to keep even the core raiders around.

Ye and the game had been in decline and bleeding out subs in droves for like 3 expansions before Legion because people were sick and tired of the same gear treadmill loop every expansion. Go figure.

[Sinx]

It's a pretty solid argument. We already know what happened to WoD. I don't think WoD 2.0 is going to surprise us. And, yes, the beauty of legion is that the content I enjoyed doing provided meaningful progression and rewards.

I'll take that as option A. And yes, here we are at the core. The content YOU enjoyed doing. Now all you need to understand is that every non RWF raider don't necessarily share your opinion and we're close to wrapping this up. Believe it or not, you don't actually have to be a hardcore raider to not want daily chores to cut back on your time doing the content you want to do. And by all means, add a 4th progression path to the game. Call it dragon power or valor points or whatever. But it doesn't have to be done in a mandatory way like in Legion/BfA/Shadowlands. Personally I prefer to log on, do an hour or 3 of m+ with friends and log off. That's the content I enjoy and want to progress on. I don't want to log on, do a whole bunch of repetetive daily/world quests to keep some borrowed power up to date, and then only have time for 1 hour of m+. I also don't want my friends to quit 1 by 1 cause they cba with daily chores. Can you at least see that point ? Without resorting to the old raid simulator phrase ?

[BeepBoo]

That's bullshit, I refuse to engage in any kind of grinds and my average parses for BfA were around 85 & 90 in SL (even got a few orange here and there). There are plenty of former CE raiders still playing this game who stopped caring about grinds years ago, because of work & family. They are still decent players, and the difference in performace between grinders and non-grinders is not nearly as big as people paint it (a good non-grinder is still MILES better than an average grinder). Granted, I didn't play Legion (had an extended break back then), but in BfA I've never, ever had to grind anything and it didn't affect my performance in any noticeable way.

I doubt you had 85s in BFA if you didn't have whatever the rank to unlock all your azurite traits were, and didn't they get rid of that stuff in SL? (I didn't play SL at all).
There's a difference between not-caring and still getting the minimum threshold of a grind and not-caring and also not meeting that threshold. To be fair, the threshold for how much extra work you had to do in BFA was way less than in legion and not infinite in terms of major power gains. That doesn't mean I didn't still abhor the fact that I had to do anything other than m+ and raidlog. Also, in legion, if you got the wrong legendary, didn't have proper AP or netherlight crucible stuff, your parses were absolute trash. BFA was a lot "easier" to obtain that grind threshold, but I still would love to have a game without the existence of that shit AT ALL, and oh-look! I do.

[Rageonit]

I doubt you had 85s in BFA if you didn't have whatever the rank to unlock all your azurite traits were, and didn't they get rid of that stuff in SL? (I didn't play SL at all).

Well if you doubt people's honesty, why do you even ask?

What you fail to acknowledge is that I DID unlock my ranks, by simply playing the game. By doing a WQ when I wanted to do a WQ, or inviting a few friends for a few quick Islands. But as soon as I felt I don't want to do it anymore, I simply didn't. End result? I've maybe unlocked those traits a week or two later than those who grinded their asses off even when they didn't want to. Boo freakin' hoo.

You might be right about Legion, like I've said, I had a break then (new kid in the house). But as far as I'm concerned, BfA wasn't nearly as bad as people paint it. Legion's biggest mistake, AFAIK, was the random nature of lego drops - which Blizzard had never, ever repeated.

[JustaRandomReindeer]

I'll take that as option A. And yes, here we are at the core. The content YOU enjoyed doing. Now all you need to understand is that every non RWF raider don't necessarily share your opinion and we're close to wrapping this up. Believe it or not, you don't actually have to be a hardcore raider to not want daily chores to cut back on your time doing the content you want to do. And by all means, add a 4th progression path to the game. Call it dragon power or valor points or whatever. But it doesn't have to be done in a mandatory way like in Legion/BfA/Shadowlands. Personally I prefer to log on, do an hour or 3 of m+ with friends and log off. That's the content I enjoy and want to progress on. I don't want to log on, do a whole bunch of repetetive daily/world quests to keep some borrowed power up to date, and then only have time for 1 hour of m+. I also don't want my friends to quit 1 by 1 cause they cba with daily chores. Can you at least see that point ? Without resorting to the old raid simulator phrase ?

I don't think you see the point. You were never forced to grind to do well if you were not aiming for cutting edge. You could still spend your time running M+ with the boys without worrying about "grinds".

But let me put it this way - your idea of fun is spamming M+ and raids and not engaging in any other kind of content. That's fine. But consider that only ~2% of players manage to clear mythic raids and get Cutting Edge, and only about 18% on average manage to clear heroic raids and get AotC. What about the other 80%? Why should the sense of progression and reward be removed from the content they enjoy doing?

[crusadernero]

There is no overwhelming feedback. It's a vocal minority of players who have no self-control. The feedback you should be looking at is how Legion broke records on release, is still considered by many to be the best modern expansion, and Ion himself has called it an overwhelming success. You should also go check raid logs and achievement statistics that all point towards DF underperforming not only SL, but BfA and Legion too.



When did groups require a certain AP level? This is how I know you are making shit up because this was never the case.



This is bullshit. You absolutely never had to grind your brains out to clear content unless you were a world first cutting edge mythic raider. Stop parroting the same bullshit attempts at gaslighting. Nobody who has played through Legion is gonna buy it.



The cutting edge mythic raiders are ~2% of the entire playerbase. Nobody else had to "grind" AP to clear content. Why should 98% of the community lose features they like so the 2% can play raid simulator? Explain this to me.

Short time memory lives strong in you. There was lots of negative feedback about AP, thats why its REMOVED IN THE FIRST PLACE. If it was loved, we would still have it. It wasnt. Just because you believe the "vocal minority" complained, doesnt make it right. Blizzard saw the feedback and adjusted.

and as i've said before, it worked OK in legion cause that was the first time with now. By the time BfA came around, people were tierd of that bullshit.

And yes, grps did want people with high enough AP level. Its only natural. Just as people want players with high ilevel + good rio score. nothing new. Why do you think grps, to this day, require you to have a certain ilevel+score? often times its higher requierment than the loot that drops. Just how it works. As such, people would grind AP. Even if it wasnt needed. By that point it really doesnt matter, cause a design decision led to this.

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Isn't that new ring in 10.0.7 basically this? The ring is upgradable up to 424 and there seems to be some requirement to kill elite rares to get keys to unlock the vault which may have chests that have gems which can be broken down (by JCs?) to upgrade the ring and/or the gems.

Yes it is. So I fully expect certain people in this thread to scream in joy. Gameplay is the same, but you grind.

[Rageonit]

There's a difference between not-caring and still getting the minimum threshold of a grind and not-caring and also not meeting that threshold. To be fair, the threshold for how much extra work you had to do in BFA was way less than in legion and not infinite in terms of major power gains. That doesn't mean I didn't still abhor the fact that I had to do anything other than m+ and raidlog. Also, in legion, if you got the wrong legendary, didn't have proper AP or netherlight crucible stuff, your parses were absolute trash. BFA was a lot "easier" to obtain that grind threshold, but I still would love to have a game without the existence of that shit AT ALL, and oh-look! I do.

Oh, and also, what people fail to understand, is that grinds are never a result of content - they are a result of reward structure. Take the damned Torghast - all they had to do is make m+/raid bosses drop Ash. Magically solved! Introduce any kind of AP, slap a weekly cap on it (with some catch-up mechanic) and make it drop from everything. Solved! Suddenly you can do your raids and I can do my WQs, as long as the caps are easily attainable. Why not? And everyone's happy, right? Apparently Blizzard tricked people into thinking that if there's some AP (or borrowed power, or whatever), it HAS TO BE grindy. It really doesn't. So why not introduce solo content that gives AP, while making sure those who raid/do m+ a lot will hit the caps without ever touching world content. Surely it could be done, no?

[crusadernero]

At this point I think it's safe to assume that if people still complain despite there being optional and viable worthwhile grinding systems; it's not that they want something to do.

It's that knowing they are ahead of others is what gives them satisfaction in game.

Having the ability to get ahead of others is only important if it's easy to maintain. The fact that anyone can invest x many hours and get to a reasonable BIS appears to be the actual issue.

It's childish that people try and logic it rather than just saying 'I prefer the way it makes me feel when I can spend x many hours a day and keep x many hours a day ahead of everyone else' which itself is an entirely acceptable thing.

For some people the main goals that get achieved in their life are WoW related. For some of those people, they've lost an avenue to achieve that. I understand if your only advantage in the game is the amount of free time you have, why you would then react negatively to changes that remove that as an advantage.

Yep, I think so too. With AP gone, they appearntly have no places to grind and become stronger and stronger. its most likely people that play wow alot, like too much already. The AP system was OK for legion and that xpac, but it lasted for years in various iterations. It leads to unhealthy game practices and its not good for the longevity of the game+players.

[BeepBoo]

Surely it could be done, no?

I'm down with that. I've said I'm down with some creative solutions for solving these issues. Usually it's nolyfes who simultaneously like infinite grind that also enjoy doing the faceroll difficulty of literally EVERYTHING that don't like those ideas of hard caps.

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What you fail to acknowledge is that I DID unlock my ranks, by simply playing the game. By doing a WQ when I wanted to do a WQ, or inviting a few friends for a few quick Islands. But as soon as I felt I don't want to do it anymore, I simply didn't. End result? I've maybe unlocked those traits a week or two later than those who grinded their asses off even when they didn't want to. Boo freakin' hoo.

First off I didn't fail to acknowledge it or realize it. I admitted it might be likely. But...

Boo hoo is right. It is a travesty if I can't beat or compete with scrubs or people who are worse than me just because I refuse to do any amount of grind in things I dislike at all and they don't refuse to do it. Also, if I never had done any wq's I wouldn't just be a few weeks behind. I'd be months. What about "I don't want to do any WQs *at all* and still be as competitive in raid as people who do" is hard to understand and likewise seems egregious to you? I want my desired content to be the only thing I have to do to be 100% of my potential. Seems fair and fine.