Bard popularity in the eyes of the general audience

[Ielenia]

She's on the cover of an expansion, and she was in heroes of the storm. She's definitely a hero character.

Irrelevant. That is not what a "hero" is. Please educate yourself what the word "hero" means. Here's a hint: it doesn't mean "ruler".

The outfit is based on the Lich King's thematic. You even pointed that out yourself.

I did not. I said that they're wearing the same colors. I didn't say the armor reminds me of the Lich King. And for the record, it doesn't. Because the LK doesn't wear robes, does not wear a hood, nor does he walk barefoot.

So you're saying that the Pandaren Monk has zero ties to Chen when Chen is supposedly the one who sends the pet to you?

I said the unit, i.e., the gameplay.

Alcohol isn't mentioned anywhere in that description.

I'll repeat since you apparently ignored that part:

Look at the WC3 pandaren unit's voice lines.

Better yet: listen to the voice lines, and tell me you think this is the tone of someone who often indulges in drinking tea.

yeah, you can play similarly to Alexstraza in HotS.

Dishonesty abounds. No, you cannot play as Alexstrasza from HotS. You cannot use the overwhelming majority of the evoker's red dragon abilities as a healer, you cannot fight in visage form the overwhelming majority of the time, etc.

Name them.

I'm not going to repeat them for the umpteenth time, only to have you either ignore or handwave them away for the umpteenth time again.

Then name the expansion in which a Bard could be introduced and would thematically fit.

I already answered that question. And I'll just repeat what I asked earlier: do you think Blizzard is somehow unable to come up with an expansion that fits the bard theme?

[Triceron]

Why would a brewmaster not be able to brew teas?

Why would a Bard not be able to play traditional music?

[Teriz]

Why would a Bard not be able to play traditional music?

Because he’s a rockstar with an electric guitar.



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Irrelevant. That is not what a "hero" is. Please educate yourself what the word "hero" means. Here's a hint: it doesn't mean "ruler".

No, a hero in WoW is a major character that can influence/ has influenced the lore of the game. Alexstraza is such a character.

I did not. I said that they're wearing the same colors. I didn't say the armor reminds me of the Lich King. And for the record, it doesn't. Because the LK doesn't wear robes, does not wear a hood, nor does he walk barefoot.

This is getting silly. The point is that within the starter gear you can easily see the LK influence on the class.

I said the unit, i.e., the gameplay.

You can’t just use the unit and ignore the development of the concept from WC3 to MoP.

I'll repeat since you apparently ignored that part:

See above.

Dishonesty abounds. No, you cannot play as Alexstrasza from HotS. You cannot use the overwhelming majority of the evoker's red dragon abilities as a healer, you cannot fight in visage form the overwhelming majority of the time, etc.

Alexstraza utilized green spells as well as fire spells. You can also cast living flame in visage form. So yeah, you can shoot fireballs, cast green healing spells, and turn into a dragon to use dragon breath.

I'm not going to repeat them for the umpteenth time, only to have you either ignore or handwave them away for the umpteenth time again.

It’s amazing that every time I ask for an example, you come up with excuses.

[Triceron]

Because he’s a rockstar with an electric guitar.

But even Rockstars are able to play traditional music.


Why would a Bard be unable to play traditional music?

[Ielenia]

Because he’s a rockstar with an electric guitar.

That's not the bard concept. That is, at best, a bard. That's like saying mages can only cast frost spells and nothing else.

No, a hero in WoW is a major character that can influence/ has influenced the lore of the game. Alexstraza is such a character.

Wrong. What you are describing are VIPs. Heroes are VIPs, but not all VIPs are heroes. Alexstrasza is no hero.

This is getting silly. The point is that within the starter gear you can easily see the LK influence on the class.

Nope. You have to really abstract a lot for that. The LK doesn't wear robes, hoods, and doesn't go barefoot.

You can’t just use the unit and ignore the development of the concept from WC3 to MoP.

I can, because the unit was unchanged until MoP came along. The unit was about alcohol. It was a brew master in the sense that it was a master crafter of brews, not martial arts.

Alexstraza utilized green spells as well as fire spells.

Do you know how many red spells you're using as a healer? One. Also, Alexstrasza doesn't use any bronze dragonflight ability, whereas the evoker is using a bucket-load of them.

You can also cast living flame in visage form.

And then immediately turn back into a dracthyr as you use the rest of your abilities. So unless you really want to hamstring yourself and be a piss-poor healer by wasting a GCD after every spell cast to return to visage form, you'll spend most of your time in visage form.

It’s amazing that every time I ask for an example, you come up with excuses.

You call it excuses, I call them facts. Because that is exactly the situation here. Every time I brought examples you either ignored them, or handwaved them away by using your own opinion you like to pass as if they are Blizzard's hard rules. I've given you lists of sound/music abilities, I've given you NPCs, I've given you groups, etc. All of them dismissed because a random thing about them doesn't fit your personal preferences.

[Ragnarohk]

People here arguing what Blizz is "allowed" to do. They can do anything they want. They aren't restricted to what random people in a forum think.

Also, look at the new Hearthstone expansion, it's all based around music.

a common core of abilities is doable, so that it's not only Rock themed.
Some of the new HS cards:
Roaring Applaus, Volume Up, Rewind, Distort, Rush the Stage, Synchronize, Amplifier, Frequency Oscillator

Again, I'm not a fan of bards. But never say never. I honestly can see it be a thing if there a "return" to Azeroth expansion. In the lines of a time skip, bards telling the tales of our old adventures etc

[Triceron]

People here arguing what Blizz is "allowed" to do. They can do anything they want. They aren't restricted to what random people in a forum think.

Also, look at the new Hearthstone expansion, it's all based around music.

a common core of abilities is doable, so that it's not only Rock themed.
Some of the new HS cards:
Roaring Applaus, Volume Up, Rewind, Distort, Rush the Stage, Synchronize, Amplifier, Frequency Oscillator

Again, I'm not a fan of bards. But never say never. I honestly can see it be a thing if there a "return" to Azeroth expansion. In the lines of a time skip, bards telling the tales of our old adventures etc

Some people like making delusional arguments it seems. I mean, same person here said Demon Hunters wouldn't be playable and are using the exact same arguments against a Bard now, let's be honest here.

[Teriz]

But even Rockstars are able to play traditional music.

Why would a Bard be unable to play traditional music?

Already explained. If the base of the class is the ETC, then you’re looking at modern music, since the ETC is also modern music.

[Triceron]

Already explained. If the base of the class is the ETC, then you’re looking at modern music, since the ETC is also modern music.

Your arguments don't seem to make any common sense here. It's like saying you can't have Fire and Frost mage because if a Mage is based on the Archmage hero and Jaina, they couldn't use Fire. Well, Mage is based on Archmage and Jaina, and it hasn't stopped them from branching out to different concepts and themes has it?


The base class would be a Bard. Rockstar, or whatever you want to call it, could easily be one specialization of the Bard. Or it could merely be a subtheme, like a set of talents in a particular branch dealing with power chords and stage performance. Then you can have a traditional music specialization, one that incorporates anything from Wardrummers to Lute-playing Minstrels. I don't see why a Blood Elf Bard could only use an Electric guitar to play music when the concept is perfectly open to lutes and harps.

[Teriz]

People here arguing what Blizz is "allowed" to do. They can do anything they want. They aren't restricted to what random people in a forum think.

Also, look at the new Hearthstone expansion, it's all based around music.

a common core of abilities is doable, so that it's not only Rock themed.
Some of the new HS cards:
Roaring Applaus, Volume Up, Rewind, Distort, Rush the Stage, Synchronize, Amplifier, Frequency Oscillator

Again, I'm not a fan of bards. But never say never. I honestly can see it be a thing if there a "return" to Azeroth expansion. In the lines of a time skip, bards telling the tales of our old adventures etc

Yeah, if you look at the Hearthstone expansion, it’s also based on modern music like Hip Hop and Jazz. That works with the ETC theme. No one is prancing around in tights playing a lute or a harp.

[Ielenia]

Already explained. If the base of the class is the ETC, then you’re looking at modern music, since the ETC is also modern music.

So it stands to reason that the ETC is not going to be the base of this hypothetical bard class. Like everyone has been telling you. Simple as that.

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Yeah, if you look at the Hearthstone expansion, it’s also based on modern music like Hip Hop and Jazz. No one is prancing around in tights playing a lute or a harp.

Hearthstone is not WoW. In Hearthstone we have deathknight Uther and Ragnaros Lightlord.

[shane brannigan]

are bards even all that popular outside DnD?

Outside DnD I can think of like Dandelion in popular media.
Maybe ETC but he's a niche within a niche.

[Teriz]

So it stands to reason that the ETC is not going to be the base of this hypothetical bard class. Like everyone has been telling you. Simple as that.

The ETC is the only major Bardic character in WoW with original abilities. Without him you got nothing.

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are bards even all that popular outside DnD?

Outside DnD I can think of like Dandelion in popular media.
Maybe ETC but he's a niche within a niche.

They weren’t popular enough for Blizzard to build significant lore around them. Which is why every one is hard pressed to come up with an expansion that Bards could be introduced in.

[shane brannigan]

TBH if a bard class was to be a thing, I kind of can't now.
Dracthyr evoker is pretty much what a WoW flavoured bard would have been mechanically. Charged AoE attacks where you cause localised earth quakes by rocking out hard on your goblin electric guitar. Like that's only way I could of seen it working, and its class now.

Its a shame because that sounds bad ass as fuck. Like splitting the ground open with a sick riff, and melting a dudes face with a targeted soundwave.

[Teriz]

Your arguments don't seem to make any common sense here. It's like saying you can't have Fire and Frost mage because if a Mage is based on the Archmage hero and Jaina, they couldn't use Fire. Well, Mage is based on Archmage and Jaina, and it hasn't stopped them from branching out to different concepts and themes has it?

Mages are also based on Kael'thas, who was a fire mage (Blood Mage in WC3) and Khadgar (WC2) who had Fire, Frost, and Arcane spells.

So yeah, when you have a situation like that, you can more easily mix and match. When all you have is a single hero to base the class on, things get far more narrow.

The base class would be a Bard. Rockstar, or whatever you want to call it, could easily be one specialization of the Bard. Or it could merely be a subtheme, like a set of talents in a particular branch dealing with power chords and stage performance. Then you can have a traditional music specialization, one that incorporates anything from Wardrummers to Lute-playing Minstrels. I don't see why a Blood Elf Bard could only use an Electric guitar to play music when the concept is perfectly open to lutes and harps.

Cool, what Warcraft hero with bardic abilities are you basing this on? WoW classes are hero based you know.

Also how about an expansion theme?

[Triceron]

Cool, what Warcraft hero with bardic abilities are you basing this on? WoW classes are hero based you know.

Wrathion didn't have abilities and yet you equate Evokers being based on him.

How did you come to that conclusion if he didn't have abilities?

[Teriz]

Wrathion didn't have abilities and yet you equate Evokers being based on him.

How did you come to that conclusion if he didn't have abilities?

Uh where did I say that? I said that Evokers pulled abilities from Alexstraza and Chromie HotS.

Which they did.

Oh, and if a certain someone is curious, here's Alex casting a Green spell in HotS;

[sam86]

He's a brewmaster which happens to be a monk spec.

On topic, nah don't care about bards (barf), tinkers first.

they made brewmaster a spec of monk, not the other way around, there wasn't a monk in wow, only monks we had were presented as melee priests as seen in scarlet crusade dungeons, blizz shit on their own lore (as usual) to create the abysmal idea of monk we got in pandalands, great gameplay, butcher of lore (sadly, as usual)
regardless, as already mentioned, they pulled Dracthyr out of their asses, so they can make bard anytime they want, u don't need prelore, heck if it contradicts already existing lore (like monk did), u can easily shit on it and act like it never existed and make ur own, like how we suddenly need to forget the off-tank spec of warlocks that existed for almost decade before DH cannibalized warlocks to exist

even IF this movie could have any impact on next class, which is extremely unlikely, the soones it would happen is next expansion, which is some 2y away, with announcement over half a year away...
in half a year people wont give a damn about this movie, all hype for bard you think it will make will be loooong gone...

pandas changed dramatically from how they were introduced in wc3 to far more similar kung-fu panda ripoff, up to even change of eye color, so no if movie makes a franchise like kung-fu panda, there is no reason why they won't rip it off (like what ever company does btw, check how many try to eat a slice of dark souls cake nowadays)

[Triceron]

Uh where did I say that?

You've mentioned many times that Evokers are based on Wrathion and Alexstrazsa.

You've made mention that Wrathion is a Hero.

How do you string that together if Wrathion never had any abilities? How could Evokers be based on him if your argument is all about Heroes with abilities?

Cool, what Warcraft hero with bardic abilities are you basing this on? WoW classes are hero based you know.

They are also based on popular RPG archetypes. Rogues are based on classic RPG Thief archetype. Even arguably now, the Evoker is pretty much a reimaging of the Sorcerer archetype from D&D, which basis their magical ability on ancient bloodlines rather than learned knowledge; some who are directly descended from dragons.

The Bard RPG archetype is well established in pop culture. They don't need to base it on any existing hero if the concept is already readily available and merely needs to be adapted into WoW. That's how we're full circle back to the Lute and Harp using Blood Elf Bard fan art for a new Bard class.

[Teriz]

You've mentioned many times that Evokers are based on Wrathion and Alexstrazsa.

You've made mention that Wrathion is a Hero.

How do you string that together if Wrathion never had any abilities? How could Evokers be based on him if your argument is all about Heroes with abilities?

Uh huh. If I did that then I was mistaken. It's based on Alexstraza HotS and has some abilities from Chromie HotS as well.