Is WoW's combat holding the game back?

[BeepBoo]

It would increase my enjoyment. I contend it would increase the enjoyment of your average player.

Your take there is the usual "only the hardcores matter" BS we constantly see in discussions of WoW.

What is the goal of making it easier? So people can say they cleared the hardest content in the game? Why not just have different levels of content suited to different skill levels?

Does it matter if you suck if you don't plan to do anything pat heroics? Do the players you're talking about even know they suck?

[Lolites]

Coordinating 40 people is harder than coordinating 10-20.

in theory? sure
in reality? no it wasnt, bcs those 40 people just had to avoid 1-2 abiities most bosses had, and even if few of them died it didnt matter, can you say the same about current mythic, or at least heroic?

- - - Updated - - -

poopsocking your way through raids with all world buffs isn't indicative of the difficulty of the game

since you cant do that currently, and the guy claimed vanila required more skill then current game, then yes, it absolutely is indicative of dificulty...

[Archy]

As many said the combat is WoW's best feature. Imho it's the thing that kept it going that long. It's precise, delay free and fast. The wonky telegraphing of attacks is bullshit (they keep improving it though) but apart from that the core of the combat is perfect. And on top of all that, it's unique. Partly because all of the WoW clones failed but there are not many games out that offer that kind of gameplay. It's defnitely more a case of "play another game" than "improvement to WoW".

Also good action combat is not conducive to good teamplay and tends to break the holy trinity. That the holy trinity is a good concept is obvious if you have played GW2.

This issue exist for long time and a lot of designers and programmers tried to fix it. Back in Vanilla WOW had teamwork and possibilities and it was good in raiding, dungeons and group parties against elite mobs. Problem that wow have evolved to single player in our time and every thing got nerfed and got easy.

In Vanilla you needed skill and experience to kill bosses. Don't push this useless crap called Shadowlands and Dragonflight need's coordination!!!
You have more addons to swift kill bosses now days unlike classic and TBC.

This has to be a troll right? Nobody who actually played classic and live can think that.

[LalaGamer]

As many said the combat is WoW's best feature. Imho it's the thing that kept it going that long. It's precise, delay free and fast. The wonky telegraphing of attacks is bullshit (they keep improving it though) but apart from that the core of the combat is perfect. And on top of all that, it's unique. Partly because all of the WoW clones failed but there are not many games out that offer that kind of gameplay. It's defnitely more a case of "play another game" than "improvement to WoW".

Also good action combat is not conducive to good teamplay and tends to break the holy trinity. That the holy trinity is a good concept is obvious if you have played GW2.




This has to be a troll right? Nobody who actually played classic and live can think that.

I said Vanilla not Classic.

[Archy]

I said Vanilla not Classic.

In Vanilla you needed skill and experience to kill bosses. Don't push this useless crap called Shadowlands and Dragonflight need's coordination!!!
You have more addons to swift kill bosses now days unlike classic and TBC.

You either confused them, used them interchangeably or actually mean that there are no addon on classic realms, which is wrong and countering your own point.

Even without addons Vanilla WoW is a much easier game than the WoW today with addons. Only players who do the easiest content in today's WoW will think otherwise.

[LalaGamer]

You either confused them, used them interchangeably or actually mean that there are no addon on classic realms, which is wrong and countering your own point.

Yes i did a mistake there with classic is should me Vanilla wow.

Even without addons Vanilla WoW is a much easier game than the WoW today with addons. Only players who do the easiest content in today's WoW will think otherwise.

How?? explain it to me please??

[anon5123]

You're basically saying vanilla is hard if you don't play well?

I'm saying vanilla is hard if you're not a speedrun sweaty that has mastered the game. So, a normal player.

[pfbe]

I like the combat in wow. My only complaints with it are to do with the visuals, because lately there's been way too much "blue effects over blue backgrounds". Overall it's pretty snappy. Class balance, on the other hand... heh

[Osmeric]

What is the goal of making it easier? So people can say they cleared the hardest content in the game? Why not just have different levels of content suited to different skill levels?

The goal is to make it more enjoyable and attractive to the average player.

Stratified content makes the lower content less attractive to its intended audience.

[VinceVega]

Yes i did a mistake there with classic is should me Vanilla wow.



How?? explain it to me please??

How what? This is just one thing the majority of players agree on. Classic wow was easy. People sucked because the game was new.

Even Eranog Mythic is harder than any boss in classic in any raid ever was.
And you don't even NEED addons for most bosses on mythic btw. except maybe the last two.

[BeepBoo]

Stratified content makes the lower content less attractive to its intended audience.

So until people who just suck at the game can do whatever the highest level of content is in all their suckiness, the game has issues?

Who are these supposed people who have an inability to realize when something is easy enough that anyone can do it, but feel a sense of accomplishment doing it? I wish I was ignorant enough to think making a basketball shot from 5 feel was special, or throwing a baseball 10 feet, or jumping like 12" off the ground, or completing a mile run in 16 minutes, etc.

I suppose I'm cursed with being able to recognize when something is braindead or easy enough for a literal child to do it and that taints my ability to get enjoyment out of it because I don't feel like I actually did anything.

Do you also think solo games shouldn't have hard difficulties that are actually hard?

[Seiken3]

Tab target
VS
Action combat with collision, hit boxes and IFrames

Why do i think "it is"?
Because in action combat there is always a sense of mastery and interaction even on the easiest content.
Is NOT a matter of numbers, dice rolling rpg and holy trinity (like in WoW) AND is a matter of mastering the enemy actual visual animations and mastering iframe windows (like in souls games or monster hunter)
Lets now evaluate how "FUN" can be had in the different playstyles AND lets compare WoW to Monster Hunter (which is the only souls like multiplayer game i know of)

What is WoW's "Fun Factor" in a normal dungeon?

1-DPS meter
2-Performing the boss mechanic "dance" and moving around the red circles
3-Mastery is evaluated (for the most part) at an individual level. For example, DPS'ers cant interact/support eachother in a meaningful and constant way.

What is Monster Hunter's "Fun Factor" in a normal Boss?

1-Mastering the boss visual tells, iframe windows etc
2-No holy trinity means every Hunter is his/her own person (leads to a more sense of danger and thrill)
3-Your group can only die 3 times per hunt, so you better have teamwork. Kick your own allies that are stunned or blinded, use traps, flash grenades, put yourself in front of a fireball aimed at your downed friend about to be killed
4-One thing unique to Monster Hunter that WoW doesn't have is that THERE IS FUN to be had in lower level Bosses (Dungeons). Because the soul's like, Monster Hunter combat itself is always asked to be mastered. Teamwork to be had between the DPS'ers AND the bosses always have 4x the healthpool because they are meant to be killed by 4 players.
This means even in low level content there is fun to be had (unlike WoW where u one shot all trash and bosses due to level disparity)

DISCALIMER:

IM NOT SAYING "WoW's Combat is crap"
IM SAYING:

Action combat in WoW WOULD open up a lot of possibilities, teamworks, social dynamics, fun interactions and possible different ways to play the game.
And i think with tab target we are stuck in time with no possibility for innovation in COMBAT ways to play the game with different social dynamics.


What do you think?

Alright, I'll be the one to say your disclaimer then. I very often think of returning to wow, but after a few seconds of remembering how combat is and feels, I always perish the thought of returning. Combat doesn't feel fun. Don't get me wrong; the rotations and the little minigames they put into your rotation is fun and all, BUT - the mobs takes ages to die. I play a lot of classic because it's when I thought wow combat was on the top of its game. Your rotation felt like it was doing proper impact. Join a dungeon now, and it feels like you're not really doing much. This most likely is a scaling issue as there's a certain point in gearing you're suddenly doing tons of damage and things start to melt; but then there's a different problem. Attacks and spells both sounds and overall feel impactless.

An example: In classic, playing a hunter and shooting with a gun feels like... you're shooting a gun. Its sound are few clicks, then a large "bang" as the gun fires. In retail, that sound is replaced by the sound of what I imagine to be a fancy person farting. The gun got no kick to it, so regardless if I am heavily geared - it will still feel like I'm weak(or that it was just the mob that was weak) with these weak combat additions. And this problem is sadly not limited to hunters... Yes, I am one who believe proper combat should not only be seen, but also heard.

Closing in, being one that have played since vanilla, I noticed around cata/MoP that things took a turn for the worse. Enemies started to be alive longer, they changed the sound of spells, autoattacks and abilities in combat - which then was fine! But at the time we got to WoD, it was downhill from there. Enemies who took 3-4 rotations now take 6-7, unless you're overgeared for your content. I don't have a surefire solution to this, but steps in the right direction would be to either allow us to get the old sounds back(I havent found any addon doing this either yet), weaken the enemies with 30-40% of their health(The combat issue is also for healers where we now spam-heal to get anyone up to max hp from half these days...), increase healing with 30-50% across the board and perhaps revisit some of the spells visuals. Looking at shadow bolt that warlocks casts - it looks more of a singular shadow arcane missile. Bring back the good old chunky bolt that gave a proper sound when it hit a target, and let your eyes feast upon a chunk of the target's hp going down instead of 1 pixel.

Cheers for enduring my rant, I feel strongly that blizzard need to address this as it's what keeping me(and most of my friends too when I think about it) from returning to WoW. The content is otherwise great, but combat being such a bit part and not fun.. well, that's gatekeeping.

[Jujudrood]

I like the combat in wow. My only complaints with it are to do with the visuals, because lately there's been way too much "blue effects over blue backgrounds". Overall it's pretty snappy. Class balance, on the other hand... heh

Yeah, I feel the same about spell effects and sprites.
They almost punish you for playing on max settings with all the shit going on.
3 different friendly spell effects, especially bad with warrior spear, masking the translucent swirlie on the same-colored floor.
In encounter design, I wouldn't mind seeing more deliberate spell effects from bosses to alleviate the otherwise sprite spam of all the AOE.
Sure, you can reduce spell effects and graphical settings in raids, but that's a pretty shit suggestion to deal with poorly planned and designed effects.

[LalaGamer]

Classic as today is not a hard game, unlike Vanilla wow you had to invest more time to level up and get items.
And even then most of those item didn't really help your class or spec.

Stop confusing between Vanilla wow the original game and Classic wow from 2019.

[Osmeric]

So until people who just suck at the game can do whatever the highest level of content is in all their suckiness, the game has issues?

Who are these supposed people who have an inability to realize when something is easy enough that anyone can do it, but feel a sense of accomplishment doing it? I wish I was ignorant enough to think making a basketball shot from 5 feel was special, or throwing a baseball 10 feet, or jumping like 12" off the ground, or completing a mile run in 16 minutes, etc.

I suppose I'm cursed with being able to recognize when something is braindead or easy enough for a literal child to do it and that taints my ability to get enjoyment out of it because I don't feel like I actually did anything.

Do you also think solo games shouldn't have hard difficulties that are actually hard?

Yes, when the game's whole structure sends the message to most players "YOU SUCK", the game will have issues. In particular, it will drive those players away. When the purpose of the game is to make money, this is undesirable.

This is a particular problem in MMOs, as opposed to single player games, where the mediocre players will constantly have their noses rubbed in their own failure by interaction with other players.

You might think this is a bad situation, and that bad players deserve to feel bad. You might feel anger they are ruining a game you feel should reward deserving players like youself. But none of that is relevant to the point I've made.

Here, I am talking about desirability of something according to the objective (and reasonable) metric of commercial performance, not ultimately vacuous and unmoored discussions of what games "should" be. Such sentiments are really just personal preferences dressed up in fancy clothing and unjustifiably framed as objective truths.

I think an MMO that clearly and unambiguously sold itself as for the average player, not the hardcores, and that encouraged the latter to look elsewhere, could be massively successful, and ultimately harmful to games like WoW. In a sense FF 14 is like this, at least to some extent.

[BeepBoo]

I think an MMO that clearly and unambiguously sold itself as for the average player, not the hardcores, and that encouraged the latter to look elsewhere, could be massively successful, and ultimately harmful to games like WoW. In a sense FF 14 is like this, at least to some extent.

On the FF14 front, what are you talking about? The rotations are slower there, but they're JUST as complicated and they have JUST as many difficulty levels where people get to whore their status as wow.

As for the other part surrounding your "players have their noses rubbed" look at games like LoL. 99% of people who play that game absolutely suck nuts. They'll never make it out of bronze or iron and they fucking KNOW that. Yet, it is still massively successful even with it's very obvious hierarchy of skill. Just because wow is primarily PvE doesn't change anything, either. We're talking about enormous sample sizes for what are combat style games, not something completely different like farmville. The best part of wow is that it is cooperative-competitive PVE, and one of the very few games that has that form of content.

[Swnem]

Give it up. That would be a completely different game.

Also, Action combat mmo's tend to not be very successful. They appeal to a smaller audience.

[luc54]

Classic as today is not a hard game, unlike Vanilla wow you had to invest more time to level up and get items.
And even then most of those item didn't really help your class or spec.

Stop confusing between Vanilla wow the original game and Classic wow from 2019.

You need to elaborate. The diference is what patch talents you are using in classic. Unless you are arguing you should use brokenass shit talents to play with at start of classic which would have made for some really awful playing experience. The time to level and gear up was the same though. What changed was playerbase and their knowledge. People are way more efficient and knowlegable nowadays.

[azka]

Tab target
VS
Action combat with collision, hit boxes and IFrames

Why do i think "it is"?
Because in action combat there is always a sense of mastery and interaction even on the easiest content.
Is NOT a matter of numbers, dice rolling rpg and holy trinity (like in WoW) AND is a matter of mastering the enemy actual visual animations and mastering iframe windows (like in souls games or monster hunter)
Lets now evaluate how "FUN" can be had in the different playstyles AND lets compare WoW to Monster Hunter (which is the only souls like multiplayer game i know of)

What is WoW's "Fun Factor" in a normal dungeon?

1-DPS meter
2-Performing the boss mechanic "dance" and moving around the red circles
3-Mastery is evaluated (for the most part) at an individual level. For example, DPS'ers cant interact/support eachother in a meaningful and constant way.

What is Monster Hunter's "Fun Factor" in a normal Boss?

1-Mastering the boss visual tells, iframe windows etc
2-No holy trinity means every Hunter is his/her own person (leads to a more sense of danger and thrill)
3-Your group can only die 3 times per hunt, so you better have teamwork. Kick your own allies that are stunned or blinded, use traps, flash grenades, put yourself in front of a fireball aimed at your downed friend about to be killed
4-One thing unique to Monster Hunter that WoW doesn't have is that THERE IS FUN to be had in lower level Bosses (Dungeons). Because the soul's like, Monster Hunter combat itself is always asked to be mastered. Teamwork to be had between the DPS'ers AND the bosses always have 4x the healthpool because they are meant to be killed by 4 players.
This means even in low level content there is fun to be had (unlike WoW where u one shot all trash and bosses due to level disparity)

DISCALIMER:

IM NOT SAYING "WoW's Combat is crap"
IM SAYING:

Action combat in WoW WOULD open up a lot of possibilities, teamworks, social dynamics, fun interactions and possible different ways to play the game.
And i think with tab target we are stuck in time with no possibility for innovation in COMBAT ways to play the game with different social dynamics.


What do you think?

No, thank you for your feedback.

[mauserr]

Classic as today is not a hard game, unlike Vanilla wow you had to invest more time to level up and get items.
And even then most of those item didn't really help your class or spec.

Stop confusing between Vanilla wow the original game and Classic wow from 2019.

Time spent grinding nonsense like soulshards and other meme tier "rpg" elements to be even able to play in a raid is not hard, it's tedium.
Time =/= difficulty.

The raids themselves and the mechanics were dogshit easy.