How should Blizz Balance the Horde and Forsaken?

[Powerogue]

And personally, I've always felt like the resentment and villainy of some of the forsaken weren't fit for a permanent status quo. Because they were the result of a specific arc, that has ended.

We could say the same about the goblins without Gallywix, or the orcs without Garrosh. They're better off without their evil leaders who ultimately cared more about their own agendas than their people. The post-BFA treaty would not have been possible with these jerks still running around, which is why I ultimately agree with Blizzard's writing that the fighting eventually started back up again after MOP.

Yes evil leaders can drive conflict which drives story, hence some players criticizing it as "boring" but going in circles with the same evil leaders driving the same conflicts is also boring. Now these races are on a new path and I'm interested to see where it leads.

I like what we've gotten so far developing Calia, it really pleasantly surprised me that they acknowledged the multiple facets of the Forsaken as a people rather than just Calia's rather over-optimistic first impressions of "misguided dead humans who need her help." The new council structure for them recognizes that and I still maintain the best thing going forward would be using the variety of that council for some internal disagreements. Some things I can see them disagreeing on:

1) Calia in Legion helped the Priest order hall recruit deserting former Scarlet Crusade members. What are they up to now? Voss would be furious.

2) Yes, they've reclaimed a bunch of ruins, all well and good, we don't have to bake in Orgrimmar anymore. The Undercity is caved in and presumably still drowned in blight, should we build a new Forsaken-er Overcity on top of it maybe? I can see Calia wanting to rebuild the original building and preserve the historical significance versus the Royal Apothecary Society council member saying "no, it needs more black and green! I want slime fountains on every tower!" and forsaken members who were never even Lordaeronians in the first place wanting to just bulldoze the entire original building and leave the past in the past.

3) Sylvanas in Cataclysm resorted to using Val'kyr to zombify more Forsaken to grow her ranks. Both of them are gone now. While the Alliance/Horde war may be over, the point stands that they will eventually go extinct without something to replace this. What do we do about that? Should we do anything about that?

4) Should they keep expanding territory vs. what if anything should be given back? Calia seems intent on pulling out of Gilneas, which Genn is pleased with, but they also took over Hillsbrad Foothills and the Western Plaguelands. Not sure the humans want Southshore back in its state, but there's some ripe conflict regarding Western Plaguelands' rich farmland and the paladin presence there. Let's send someone they know, like Koltira Deathweaver to handle it! They have a history; I'm sure they can work things out. https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Bat...7s_Hope_Chapel https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Death_Knight_Campaign

[Nymrohd]

The worgen heritage questline about how it's wrong to be a worgen and they should die off isn't a blueprint, it's the worst such story Blizzard has produced because it attacks the concept they themselves sold and the main non-mechanical reason why a character is rolled. You don't play a werewolf to be told how not to be a werewolf and how werewolves should aim towards self-abolition, and you don't roll a zombie to be a tireless defender of the living or whatever that Exile's Reach bit that likewise got the axe after we bitched about it was about. The Forsaken's natural continuation point is a combination of a Cult of the Damned/Forgotten Shadow-style group devoted to preaching undeath and then ascendance and freeing/serving as a refuge spot for Scourge who've broken free now that the Helm is broken. It fits into the core of the race while not being beyond the capacity of the current Blizzard writers who fear conflict between playable/identifiable groups like the bubonic plague.

incidentally if a genie let me change WoW into a multi faction system as I'd have wanted it, the Forsaken faction would very much have included Worgen, led by Ralaar and Crowley; the first representing embracing the wolf and the second representing rebellion (Genn built a wall abandoning the people of Gilneas beyond the wall, abandoning their fellow humans who sought to escape the plague instead of at the very least trying to quarantine them and ignoring the Worgen Curse until it had spread)

One thing I'd like to note is that I don't think the implications from the Val'kyr raising new undead were needed in Cata. First, the Forsaken should have gotten a massive population boost in the Fall of the Lich King already; numerous more undead should have been able to cast away the Helm's control between Arthas' fall and Bolvar learning to use the Helm. Some of them should have joined the Forsaken. Second it violates both the focus on free will and the dual perception that undeath is both curse and hidden blessing; it should be given willfully and with consent.
With the Helm destroyed, the Forsaken losing access to the Val'kyr and apparently Scourge having run rampant in the time the adventurer went to the Shadowlands, a scenario were the Forsaken find undead that are regaining their senses and offer them a spot among them would probably be an ideal new starting experience imo.

[Super Dickmann]

incidentally if a genie let me change WoW into a multi faction system as I'd have wanted it, the Forsaken faction would very much have included Worgen, led by Ralaar and Crowley; the first representing embracing the wolf and the second representing rebellion (Genn built a wall abandoning the people of Gilneas beyond the wall, abandoning their fellow humans who sought to escape the plague instead of at the very least trying to quarantine them and ignoring the Worgen Curse until it had spread)

I'm always partial to the original extradimensional hellhound story for the worgen. It separated them from the standard werewolf, even if in the end the new version had more story opportunities (that were never taken), but if we keep the curent storyline I do actually like the idea of Gilneas and Lordaeron clashing again but with both kingdoms having been irrevocably changed by a curse. The whole idea of Ivar biting people so they were immune to being raised from undeath was a nice parallel to Godfrey preferring undeath to being a worgen, but like everything to do with the worgen it's let down by the curse being nixed by the magic bathwater, nullifying the entire point of the race. It'd have been better for both the worgen and the night elves if they were closer to the original worries of the Pack Form. The way Gilneas has turned into a Stormwind satellite while many of its most interesting concepts like the harvest witches have been outsourced and done much better by Kul Tiras is the other main thing dragging them down, while the idea of it being the Night Elves who came to help more so than one of the established kingdoms was something I really like conceptually despite a shit execution. That Gilneas kept out the undead and then ended up besieged by the kingdom it left or the Forsaken supporting the rebels are both interesting spins on it though, but werewolves vs. zombies is too iconic to me to nix entirely.

One thing I'd like to note is that I don't think the implications from the Val'kyr raising new undead were needed in Cata. First, the Forsaken should have gotten a massive population boost in the Fall of the Lich King already; numerous more undead should have been able to cast away the Helm's control between Arthas' fall and Bolvar learning to use the Helm. Some of them should have joined the Forsaken. Second it violates both the focus on free will and the dual perception that undeath is both curse and hidden blessing; it should be given willfully and with consent.
With the Helm destroyed, the Forsaken losing access to the Val'kyr and apparently Scourge having run rampant in the time the adventurer went to the Shadowlands, a scenario were the Forsaken find undead that are regaining their senses and offer them a spot among them would probably be an ideal new starting experience imo.

It was needed because of the Ebon Blade. The Forsaken in Vanilla had both the undeath as a curse to be rid of and kept until revenge was achieved and the new world order approach, on top of being break-aways from the Scourge. But the Ebon Blade seized the former vibe completely on top of actually getting to take revenge on Arthas and having a varied cast consisting of Scourge offshoots. The Val'kyr and in turn the undeath-as-transhumanism approach combined with refurbished Lordaeronian nationalism gave the Forsaken a stance that the Ebon Blade couldn't do and opened more narrative ground. Shadowlands both damaged and opened this route further. Damaged it because it removed the curse part of the undead curse by not spoling the soul the way Edge of Night and BFA extremely heavily implied, opened it because the afterlife being a deterministic shithole decided by an androgynous godhead on arbitrary standards gives you ample room to play with the Forgotten Shadow and to give people afraid of judgment a reason to prefer undeath and stave off the end. The Ebon Blade already occupying the vibe, down to having Four Horseman, an ex-LK and so forth means that they already fill the vibe of a general refuge of ex-Scourge better than the Forsaken can, leaving room for the Forsaken's primary vibe to focus elsewhere.

[Jinnobi]

Complete nonsense, the intro and the descriptions both emphasize the Forsaken's cruelty, ruthlessness, expansionism and loyalty to Sylvanas. Those are their core traits.

You're once again leaning on an intro that was created 19 years ago.

A far, far more recent portrayal of the Forsaken show them firmly loyal to the Horde after Sylvanas admits she doesn't give a damn about the Horde.

The questing reinforces this - no other race has you feed poison to a captive within a quest, put down peasant revolts, mass gas encampments visit a city with an entire district dedicated to vivisections and human experimentation, etc. etc. etc. From Vanilla to Cataclysm to even BFA and hell, even 9.2.5. re: how Belmont and Faranell immediately ponder how they can get Calia killed, the Forsaken's moral standing and overall stance are abundantly clear.

Following the lore over the years instead of staying stuck to vanilla WoW shows a clear evolution to the Forsaken as a race and as individuals.

From Alonsus, Lilian Vess, Thomas Zeilling, Derek Proudmoore, Captain Rupert, Leonid Barthalomew, Trevor, Deathstalker Commander Belmont, Dark Ranger Velonara, and even Master Apothecary Faranell -- just to name some -- important Forsaken story characters have slowly grown into more loyal and traditionally morally good members of the Horde. To say nothing of the countless lesser NPCs that populate the World of Warcraft; as well as the faction as a whole (as represented in the above video, as an example).

I'm wasting my time explaining this to you of course, as the stance you push with zero interest or understanding of the race is symptomatic of the cancerous view that sees turning everyone into some kind of shapeless neutral heroic blob as preferable to the variance of the game's races or how key said variance and their conflict is to the franchise's success. It is however impossible to come out of playing any part of the Vanilla, Wrath or Cataclysm questing and come out with the conclusion that the Forsaken occupy the same moral wavelength as Stormwind humans or are remotely similar to them, let alone that this is what they were sold as and what their fantasy entails. Their fantasy are a conquering force of intelligent, morally bankrupt zombies.

Neither your personally offensive rhetoric, nor your pet theory about how WoW role "should" be, makes a convincing argument for anyone but those who have already agreed with you from the start. You're right: you are wasting your time. You're just wrong about the reasons why.

[Super Dickmann]

You're once again leaning on an intro that was created 19 years ago.

A far, far more recent portrayal of the Forsaken show them firmly loyal to the Horde after Sylvanas admits she doesn't give a damn about the Horde.

I'm glad you've watched a youtube clip of the portrayal that features 0 (zero) speaking Forsaken characters besides Sylvanas, I'm sure that outweighs expansions worth of a consistent portrayal.

Following the game does show the evolution of the Forsaken, but not in a linear direction from victims to sadsacks with a skin condition but towards a reappraisal of undeath. The Forsaken of Cataclysm aren't in the same spot as those in Vanilla, but they are in line with what their intro lists - an expansionistic force of morally bankrupt zombies under Sylvanas.

Your wowpedia list reciting three characters who aren't part of the player Forsaken (Rupert, Bartholomew and Alonsus Faol), two who were added to the faction within the same expansion that mangled their portrayal (Calia and Derek) and three that were engaged in those very same quests about expansionism, undeath and etc. and who plot to off Calia when first they meet precisely because Blizzard needed to make a sop towards how loathed this direction was and is doesn't help your case. The incidental NPCs you gloss over, that is the overwhelming majority of the Forsaken characters in the game, from every Executor in-game, to every Apothecary part of the playable Forsaken, the entire Deathstalkers, Belmont included to even randos you meet in the very first zone all represent the Forsaken standpoint. Even the meme character in Exile's Reach introduced precisely to be a Forsaken stereotype goes on about human experimentation and acts like a crazy zombie stereotype, because that is the default Forsaken. Characters like Bartholomew are relevant precisely because there is a default for them to contrast to, not because they themselves are the default or represent any kind of demos.

The textual backing towards the correct Forsaken portrayal has something in common with the Forsaken playerbase's standpoint on this, and that it's overwhelmingly in one direction and that's counter Calia. That's why BFA had the Forsaken end up as worthless lumps where Lilian contrives a way to bring Calia along to save them from the consequences of their own stupidity and who was put in charge of representing them in the Horde, whereas 9.2.5's questline all but retcons this by having Calia only come in after the Forsaken have already set about reclaiming Lordaeron with aesthetics, lines and appearances in imitation of their original portrayal and with Calia being explicitly stated to have had no prior connection to the main Forsaken until then and starting out mistrusted until she proves herself. Blizzard did not backtrack on their plan to completely turn the Forsaken into a neutered race of pseudo-worgen because the direction was popular but because, like with previous sops like the loyalist choice, Vol'jin's lines in Pandaria or Thrall's Cataclysm role these things were so hated that they moved to appease the playerbase.

[Mehrunes]

Your wowpedia list reciting three characters who aren't part of the player Forsaken (Rupert, Bartholomew and Alonsus Faol), two who were added to the faction within the same expansion that mangled their portrayal (Calia and Derek) and three that were engaged in those very same quests about expansionism, undeath and etc. and who plot to off Calia when first they meet precisely because Blizzard needed to make a sop towards how loathed this direction was and is doesn't help your case. The incidental NPCs you gloss over, that is the overwhelming majority of the Forsaken characters in the game, from every Executor in-game, to every Apothecary part of the playable Forsaken, the entire Deathstalkers, Belmont included to even randos you meet in the very first zone all represent the Forsaken standpoint. Even the meme character in Exile's Reach introduced precisely to be a Forsaken stereotype goes on about human experimentation and acts like a crazy zombie stereotype, because that is the default Forsaken. Characters like Bartholomew are relevant precisely because there is a default for them to contrast to, not because they themselves are the default or represent any kind of demos.

Three. Zelling is also in that category. Technically it also applies to Lillian, as she only joined the Forsaken at the start of BfA and was a lone wolf that chose the "go your merry way as long as you don't attack the Forsaken" option from the Val'kyr before that. As for the ex-Forsaken members of the Argent Crusade, they all mentioned how they had to leave the Forsaken society because of how they didn't fit the majority that merrily followed Sylvanas.

And calling Faol a Forsaken is abject idiocy from Golden because her inept ass apparently doesn't even understand how belonging in a group works, because she tried to sell the idea that he's a Forsaken in the same sentence where she confirmed he never joined Sylvanas in the first place. So putting her nonsense about treating Forsaken as some catch-all term for all free willed undead (which is objectively wrong as there are other free undead groups and Golden herself fucking wrote a member of the Ebon Blade in an earlier book) aside, he's about as much a Forsaken as Meryl Felstorm, the Court of Farondis or Sataiel. I.e. not at all. And Trevor isn't even canon as he's from the RPG.

[Grazrug]

Three. Zelling is also in that category. Technically it also applies to Lillian, as she only joined the Forsaken at the start of BfA and was a lone wolf that chose the "go your merry way as long as you don't attack the Forsaken" option from the Val'kyr before that. As for the ex-Forsaken members of the Argent Crusade, they all mentioned how they had to leave the Forsaken society because of how they didn't fit the majority that merrily followed Sylvanas.

And calling Faol a Forsaken is abject idiocy from Golden because her inept ass apparently doesn't even understand how belonging in a group works, because she tried to sell the idea that he's a Forsaken in the same sentence where she confirmed he never joined Sylvanas in the first place. So putting her nonsense about treating Forsaken as some catch-all term for all free willed undead (which is objectively wrong as there are other free undead groups and Golden herself fucking wrote a member of the Ebon Blade in an earlier book) aside, he's about as much a Forsaken as Meryl Felstorm, the Court of Farondis or Sataiel. I.e. not at all. And Trevor isn't even canon as he's from the RPG.

I am amazed how Blizzard is trying to throw neutrals on the Forsaken now who were never part of the faction until it mattered for the asspulled plot.

[baskev]

I'm not trying to win, you can't 'win' a discussion, you just don't seem to understand what the discussion is about.

I agree you can not win a discussion. But you not linking the whole reaction. And responding to each of my counters/discussion points. Shows you are in it to "win" it.
Because why else would you not respond to questions i ask, to counters i give.
So it is a competition to you. If you are trying to ignore the discussion and try to do slamdunks like you thought this was.


SO again. The discussion is: can the forsaken become mad doctor again.
I think not. Because of their history.
You first need a leader to balance all of that. To keep it in check and feed it. Celia could do a bit like that if the alliance really hurt her new family.
But again, will the horde take it for granted a other mad undead. They have been burned by undead more then the Proudemoores have by orcs.

making a new leader also not very easy. But you need to build a backstory to them. and a reason for the undead to follow them.
Like before i think menithil could be that if she was pushed that way.

But again, i think what you want. Can not happen storywise. They have spilled to much of their goodwill to go bit more crazy again. The horde will not allow it, to much hurt there.
reasons why forsaken are the most on thin ice and can not change like that for many species:
Orcs: lost saurfang to them
Trolls: Vol'jin
Horde wide: many deaths of many people.
Forsaken: lost themselves a lot of people to mad undead people ....you know the meeting of the families in arathi and then sylvannas shot all of them dead?!
Blood elves: yeah, last time undead visited that city of theirs it went really well...

Alliance wide the same thing: to many deaths

Night elves: sacking of 2 zones, burning of the world tree and killing MANY night elves...and the death camps
Worgen: constant attack, death of many.
humans: loss of city, loss of family

And you even have neutral factions that are not really fan of the undead.


And then you have the whole cross faction stuff we have now. So old school forsaken can and will not happen. Sadly like alliance allied race high elves or highborne or wildhammer dwarfs , its a thing we will never see.

[Skytotem]

I'm curious that it seems a lot of people seem to regard war with the Alliance as the only way for the Forsaken to have their old vibe

[Grazrug]

I'm curious that it seems a lot of people seem to regard war with the Alliance as the only way for the Forsaken to have their old vibe

Sylvanas turned the Forsaken into a weapon. War was what they do best. This was true for the Horde too before Thrall changed it all.

[Le Conceptuel]

The Val'kyr and in turn the undeath-as-transhumanism approach combined with refurbished Lordaeronian nationalism gave the Forsaken a stance that the Ebon Blade couldn't do and opened more narrative ground. Shadowlands both damaged and opened this route further. Damaged it because it removed the curse part of the undead curse by not spoling the soul the way Edge of Night and BFA extremely heavily implied, opened it because the afterlife being a deterministic shithole decided by an androgynous godhead on arbitrary standards gives you ample room to play with the Forgotten Shadow and to give people afraid of judgment a reason to prefer undeath and stave off the end. The Ebon Blade already occupying the vibe, down to having Four Horseman, an ex-LK and so forth means that they already fill the vibe of a general refuge of ex-Scourge better than the Forsaken can, leaving room for the Forsaken's primary vibe to focus elsewhere.

This is a thread that has been popping up in my head fairly often—Shadowlands has irrevocably confirmed that the afterlife in Warcraft was evidently designed by entities which are either not benevolent or extraordinarily idiotic. I'd figure that as soon as news start to seep out regarding the Shadowlands, a great disillusionment would take place. In a setting that posits a dualistic dichotomy between consciousness and body without the suggested existence of an omniscient and omnibenevolent theistic God that usually accompanies and oversees such a thing in western philosophy, there is already grounds for a severe sense of disillusionment, and that's further compounded by the fact that the afterlife in WoW is hardly even an afterlife at all—there could be a certain appeal to the idea of ascending to even a highly-deterministic afterlife of labor on the condition that the individual in question that is ascending is specially-suited to the afterlife they go to according to a wholly-impartial judge, as one could rest their hopes on the assumption that the judge is indeed infallible and impartial, but one could not deny that probability sort of condemns most souls in WoW to be more likely to eventually be destroyed than not if they're in the Shadowlands. Perhaps the events around Shadowlands did present an outlier on account of the circumstances around the Jailer, so maybe souls usually do stick around for eternity with the exception of this one exceptionally-unfortunate outlier, but it seems like one would have to infer that the probability of omega-dying to a typical mortal wound effectively approaches 1 the longer a soul lingers around in the Shadowlands except in the instance they're fortunate enough to go to Maldraxxus.

With this established, it seems like even eternal existence is a prospect found more effectively through transhumanism than the unequivocally-existent afterlife in WoW—that, or trying to gravitate more towards some other Cosmic Force in pursuit of eventually going to its cognate realm. If anything, it seems like the Shadowlands is easily the most dangerous of the realms. From what we've seen, Natalie Seline honestly looked a tad safer in the Void than she would be in the Shadowlands, if not quite sane—which is amusingly suitable, given she would also start the Cult of Forgotten Shadow, which itself would be likely to serve as the nexus of the transhumanist movement.

[Skytotem]

Sylvanas turned the Forsaken into a weapon. War was what they do best. This was true for the Horde too before Thrall changed it all.

Right but most of the story isn't integrated into PVP, there's no reason the 'war' in warcraft only means against the Alliance.

[Kyphael]

Forsaken and Blood Elves should have been their own faction. They would only fit with the worst of the worst of Orcs and Trolls (crazed power-hungry conquering fel Orcs and Amani Trolls.) Tauren need not apply, they should be their own faction with night elves who also don't fit with Alliance.

Warcraft III had like four different factions, and WoW should have launched with that.

Alliance: Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes. Draenei added later.
Horde: Orcs, Goblins, and Trolls. Ogres added later.
Third Faction: Undead, Blood Elves and Naga. Vulpera added later.
Fourth Faction: Tauren, Night Elves, and Worgen. Pandaren added later.

[Skytotem]

Forsaken and Blood Elves should have been their own faction. They would only fit with the worst of the worst of Orcs and Trolls (crazed power-hungry conquering fel Orcs and Amani Trolls.) Tauren need not apply, they should be their own faction with night elves who also don't fit with Alliance.

Warcraft III had like four different factions, and WoW should have launched with that.

Alliance: Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes. Draenei added later.
Horde: Orcs, Goblins, and Trolls. Ogres added later.
Third Faction: Undead, Blood Elves and Naga. Vulpera added later.
Fourth Faction: Tauren, Night Elves, and Worgen. Pandaren added later.

4 would never have been viable with the mechanics and technology they had at the time, and I think people are too quick to dismiss the issues as impossible to write.

Vanilla wow would've had fewer issues if the Forsaken were a bit subtler about the worst of their excesses, and the orc warlock plot hadn't been dropped.

TBC would've worked better if instead of having the belfs get 'fixed' at the end of the Expac more focus was put on their connection with the other horde races and they were allowed some grittier aesthetics.

[Le Conceptuel]

TBC would've worked better if instead of having the belfs get 'fixed' at the end of the Expac more focus was put on their connection with the other horde races and they were allowed some grittier aesthetics.

In connection to the Blood Elves needing to be more thematically-appropriate for the Horde, I recall that they were actually in a fairly good state to join them by the end of WarCraft III—a pariah race, unwilling to assist the Alliance, which had something of a brash tendency. I feel as though TBC actually made them a tad too sinister, and that they ought've been more like they were in the aforementioned portrayal.

There's one particular scene I recall vividly that really made them feel like a Horde race. At the gates of the Black Citadel, a throng of Spellbreakers ran headfirst into artillery fire while Illidan commended them on their zeal—I think this was a particularly-suitable demeanor for a race like that, and if their fanaticism and headstrong disposition was emphasized, they would have felt more at home there. Their overall culture also seemed to value loyalty and honor in a fashion that was similar to the Orcs, which further complemented their militant tendencies. Similarly, their aesthetic was more suitable at the time. As opposed to green eyes, they had bright golden eyes, which feels more suitable for the Horde's aesthetic. They were also shown as far more muscular and wore armor that had slightly sharper and more aggressive shape language.

[Skytotem]

In connection to the Blood Elves needing to be more thematically-appropriate for the Horde, I recall that they were actually in a fairly good state to join them by the end of WarCraft III—a pariah race, unwilling to assist the Alliance, which had something of a brash tendency. I feel as though TBC actually made them a tad too sinister, and that they ought've been more like they were in the aforementioned portrayal.

There's one particular scene I recall vividly that really made them feel like a Horde race. At the gates of the Black Citadel, a throng of Spellbreakers ran headfirst into artillery fire while Illidan commended them on their zeal—I think this was a particularly-suitable demeanor for a race like that, and if their fanaticism and headstrong disposition was emphasized, they would have felt more at home there. Their overall culture also seemed to value loyalty and honor in a fashion that was similar to the Orcs, which further complemented their militant tendencies. Similarly, their aesthetic was more suitable at the time. As opposed to green eyes, they had bright golden eyes, which feels more suitable for the Horde's aesthetic. They were also shown as far more muscular and wore armor that had slightly sharper and more aggressive shape language.

TBC weirdly did a bit of BOTH making them too sinister AND making them too soft.

Draining the Naaru was a bit cartoonishly evil, and there wasn't enough of a distinction between Kael's illidari folks, the ones in the Horde, and the Kael folks who knew he'd betrayed Illidan to join the Legion.

TBC made them a bit too soft in that Silvermoon was a bit too repaired, I see what they were going for in the 'half fixed half ruined' bit but I don't think it panned out. Their characters were also either weirdly evil (Like the NPC that torments the lost ones in Swamp of Sorrows for no real reason) or too... sad (Like the one trying to create a natural cure to their addiction in 1k needles) there wasn't enough of the FIERY belf spirit. We needed a fire mage summoning phoenixes to burn scourge out and be ANGRY about it, or blood knights stabbing demons they'd killed over and over long after they're immobilized.


I'm actually of the opposite opinion on the TFT scene where they charged the black citadel, I felt it was out of character for Kael to be so Blase about the losses to his people when they'd already lost so much population to the Scourge and Garithos spent them so recklessly. I do agree on the overall aesthetic when they had scarification in some of the art as well as the overall 'sharper' vibe, though I preferred the green eyes.


We need a belf pyromaniac hanging out with some orc, troll, and goblin pyromaniacs.

[guro-tchai]

The whole "true Forsaken fans" thing reads like an appeal to purity: "Anyone who isn't overwhelmingly negative about Calia is a secret Alliance sympathizer/player/partisan."

it's not about red da bulls vs blue da bears, it's about Bullshiviks and Menscheviks. "Jesse, what the fuck are you talking about?" let me explain!

Bullshivik is a designation for people who hold the tradition of annual public Heliogabalus-style Baineduin scat session in front of the Stormwind Cathedral sacred. these people consider peace to be the "noblest aspiration", and in moderation they have their place. but they've been winning so much that the whole thing is out of balance. things fall apart yadda yadda.
the fun part is that their omnipresence not only ruins the game and turns it into a disgusting parody of its former self, but these people also destroyed the world in-universe. i still can't process the fact that Jaina once said in Tides of War that action against the orcs has to be taken, lest Teldrassil burns. she was briefly on the right track, but never did what had to be done.

the alternative to the bullshit fans are the Menscheviks - students of the Louise Mensch thought in application to the Horde problem. why did Jaina betray her father in Theramore and Varian in the Undercity? why wasn't the Underkeep blown up while the entirety of the Horde high command was down there with no means of escape? why did Genn just walk away after freeing Eyir, instead of having a sniper take Sylv out?
all of these characters never go far enough to save those who depend on them, and as a result, the latter die. had they been Menschevik, even Theramore, no, even Taurajo would still be standing. why can't they be?

our somber caretaker in his recent essay On the properties of shit, or The Final Solution To The Murloc Question noted that it stinks and permeates everything. i agree, but i would also add that we're not just facing shit, we're struggling with Bovine Viral Diarrhea, commonly referred to as Anduinism. the nomenclature does not always reflect the true origin - the Spanish Flu, apparently, isn't from Spain. however, it does reflect the popular perception of the issue - we're dealing with Anduin, cows, excrements and a virus.

some diseases have easier time dealing with different populations - most of the Alliance was a natural host for it due to the residual role of the beautiful vanguard against the barbarian Horde. the Alliance was the original place for the infected, thus making it synonymous with the problem itself. this virus seems unstoppable, yet so antithetical to the essence of the universe. why? that's because the entirety of Cdev is Bullshivik, and Cdev is sovereign in their ivory dojo. reason, wishes and laws bow down before their might. having this forced superspreader of reconciliation imperative ensures that none will escape their fate of holding hands (and, due to the nature of the disease, more) with people they hate. any possible future conflict will be fake and inconsequential. you may consider a random fight a great win for the deceived customer, tired of being gavaged with this same brown goo, but it only ever goes in one direction. Teldrassil accidentally played a similar role to the Reichstag - once it was in flames, it caused a brutal disproportionate reaction in the opposite direction. they put the war back in warcraft only to take it away definitively two years later.

what is to be done? unless you can buy ATVI, or find another way of replacing the entirety of Blizzard staff, nothing. these people are intolerant of warcraft itself. they refuse to understand that in case of one of two factions being evil, balance can be achieved not by making both good, but by making both evil. they will continue despoiling the setting, you will continue on with "the egg's not half bad".
there was a chance for balance if factions had an irreconcilable coflict, which, imo, requires shuffling the NE and the undead around ~2001. savagery versus civilization, honor versus intrigue, revanchism and internal contradictions for both - the Alliance Forsaken might be despised by their living comrades, but orcs are still more hated, and it seems that the purple elves from the new continent have declared jihad on all arcane users, blaming them for the loss of their immortality.

[Super Dickmann]

...
With this established, it seems like even eternal existence is a prospect found more effectively through transhumanism than the unequivocally-existent afterlife in WoW—that, or trying to gravitate more towards some other Cosmic Force in pursuit of eventually going to its cognate realm. If anything, it seems like the Shadowlands is easily the most dangerous of the realms. From what we've seen, Natalie Seline honestly looked a tad safer in the Void than she would be in the Shadowlands, if not quite sane—which is amusingly suitable, given she would also start the Cult of Forgotten Shadow, which itself would be likely to serve as the nexus of the transhumanist movement.

If anyone in Blizzard had spent even 5 minutes thinking over the implications of Shadowlands on the actual cultures rather than how the character drama there would reflect on the Bland Gang we'd be dealing with a much healthier franchise.

Beyond generally agreeing, and adding to the bit about the existence of a theistic judge figure, at least those who went to Shadowlands would factually know that we're not dealing with an omniscient and omnibenevolent figure but by a figure that we ourselves helped put in that spot. Pelagos only ascends because we stick him in the code. And if he can be stuck in the code, then surely anyone can be? The Forgotten Shadow gels with this perfectly. All it requires is extrapolating its current view to full on pseudo-gnosticism. The Forgotten Shadow posits that undeath, by separating the person from the wants of life and separating the body and spirit slightly opens up that spirit to enlightenment and ascension through their own will, transcending even undeath to become a spiritual being, a projection of their own will on the world at large. Incorporating Shadowlands not only confirms the fact that the cycle of life and death really is a fraud partly meant to milk you for energy, not only that God is someone you put in that spot, but that there is actually a world of ideas you can project and embody yourself onto to your own will. The Bald Man overriding the functions of the world into expressions of his own particular will despite himself being a constructed being meshes well with that same view. A more competent story, rather than having Sylvanas head off on her own would've jumped off of this by both incorporating it into his nonexistent characterization and by having Forsaken Forgotten Shadow members associate with what's basically the ultimate puppet cutting its own strings story.

Toning it down from transcending their body and then the world itself to exist as a pure expression of their own will, there's less drastic ways you can go with this. Unlike in real life, Warcraft has no Bible. There's no way you can know how you have to live your life to go to the appropriate life. The Arbiter decides based on what you've done, but also decides based on utility (going to Maldraxxus/Bastion) or a moral judgment (Revendreth). You have no way of knowing where you'd end up. How many people would figure they'd prefer not to take the chance that they might be judged 'wrong' and instead want to linger on? That's where you find your new Cult of the Damned recruitee.

- - - Updated - - -

...And Trevor isn't even canon as he's from the RPG.

I didn't even bother with Zelling, you're right about both him and Lilian, but rebutting the standpoint on a guy who existed for one patch to die in order to give Baine pathos speaks for itself. I had no idea who Trevor even was before I looked him up just now, but it shows you the kind of caliber of characters revisions of the Forsaken have to work with here. Their starting premise is that the exception is the rule and that if there's one undead character who's a paladin for good, in explicit contrast to the substance of every character the actual playable race focuses on, then that exception is equally as important, if not more so, than the baseline. As if even a tertiary character like Wroth doesn't have more lines and quests than the entire list of Argent undead combined.

- - - Updated - - -

TBC would've worked better if instead of having the belfs get 'fixed' at the end of the Expac more focus was put on their connection with the other horde races and they were allowed some grittier aesthetics.

You touched on this already, but the point of the TBC aesthetic is to present an image of outward glory hiding the rot underneath. It's why you have this glorious city but right next to it are its ruins, why you have glittering spires while demons whip around leper gnomes underneath and why shopkeepers greet you with "Death to all who oppose us" while a police state runs in the back covering up things like how the blood elves sided with the orcs who sacked Quel'thalas to begin with. They're people who've compromised on all of their values, from their alliances to their religion for the sake of staving off collapse, but the veneer is paper thin. The TBC setup for the Blood Elves (that it promptly completely ditches to replace them with red high elves) is likely the best executed part of the expansion in telling and showing societal and moral decay of a kind the game doesn't usually bother with.

If they were outwardly edgier, this wouldn't have worked so well. Where I do agree is on the model. Gaunter, slightly uncanny, like how sharp-featured they are in some of the concept art and how Kael is in the RTS might have been a better way to go, much like how the pandaren would be better served if they were less fat. If the areas weren't pretty, this feeling would be lost. If they didn't have that initially storybook feel and their inner self reflected their outer self, you'd lose out on the 'joke of what are outwardly high elves be only slightly above the moral standing of the Forsaken, in turn, having the storybook feel and the storybook identity leaves you with the Blood Elves from Wrath onwards.

[Grazrug]

Right but most of the story isn't integrated into PVP, there's no reason the 'war' in warcraft only means against the Alliance.

That is how the story started. Humans vs Orcs. You only can do the Warcraft 3 formula of a world ending threat so much before it gets boring.

[VladlTutushkin]

Sylvanas turned the Forsaken into a weapon. War was what they do best. This was true for the Horde too before Thrall changed it all.

Horde lost its war with Alliance, and even according to your half-brained opinion it also lost the Fourth War.

Seems like only reason it exists is because Alliance is a more gracious winner than Horde can ever hope for.

- - - Updated - - -

That is how the story started. Humans vs Orcs. You only can do the Warcraft 3 formula of a world ending threat so much before it gets boring.

And you can only do faction war so many times until it becomes utterly retarded.