Raiding warriors.

[Coconuter]

Now first off my main isn't a warrior, its a rogue, but any more the majority of raids will have fury warriors and no MS spec warriors anymore.

i've seen this in a ton of guilds, and find it rather annoying

now does fury give a significant more dps than MS, and if so why arent the raiders using blood frenzy from the MS spec anymore to give a boost to all hunters, warriors, druids and rogues that are in there doing damage.

Blood frenzy would increase the dps of the raid by a fair amount, but anymore nobody uses it and guilds look down on it... IMO the guilds doing this should reconsider this from what I've seen.

After all, even if that one person's dps is a little higher, overall the 5-8 people in the raid with 4% more damage would more than make up for w/e the loss people see in MS. Let alone increased damage from tanks would increase threat and allow the casters more dps as well.

[tsn]

Because i enjoy 3.2 BT's

[Tsuuga]

i raid with MS in my guild. 33/28 build and i do more dmg than our fury warrior. when we had one. we just recruited a new one, we'll see how he does.

[Coconuter]

i raid with MS in my guild. 33/28 build and i do more dmg than our fury warrior. when we had one. we just recruited a new one, we'll see how he does.

yea, ive heard the 33/28 build is the best dps build, supposedly going around slam

[Steeve]

A MS warrior with a good PVE gear and spec'd for raid dps will hands down beat a fury warrior and yes Blood Frenzy is a pretty nice boost in dps for the melee.

Dont get me wrong though, fury is still very powerful in raids. If I was a gleader or warrior class lead I would only let maybe one very good warrior to dps as MS, all the others would be fury, assuming we had a butt load of raiding DPS warriors :P

[Morthengel]

Now first off my main isn't a warrior, its a rogue, but any more the majority of raids will have fury warriors and no MS spec warriors anymore.

i've seen this in a ton of guilds, and find it rather annoying

now does fury give a significant more dps than MS, and if so why arent the raiders using blood frenzy from the MS spec anymore to give a boost to all hunters, warriors, druids and rogues that are in there doing damage.

Blood frenzy would increase the dps of the raid by a fair amount, but anymore nobody uses it and guilds look down on it... IMO the guilds doing this should reconsider this from what I've seen.

After all, even if that one person's dps is a little higher, overall the 5-8 people in the raid with 4% more damage would more than make up for w/e the loss people see in MS. Let alone increased damage from tanks would increase threat and allow the casters more dps as well.

Experienced warriors can skip this.

You should have mentioned your raid progression and the level of your gear. I have been raiding 33/28. The 33/28 hybrid build differs a lot from pure fury build in terms of scaling.

Meaning:

As you get better gear, your MS crits will not get significantly bigger. (New 2hander will move you a few %, but you will probably upgrade your weapon twice through raid progression and that's all). You have little benefit with increased AP. On the other hand, you will improve greatly with +crit. (You need to crit to get rage, proc flurry, activate deep wounds, get impale bonus, etc...) (Expect around 40% unbuffed with axe spec in zerker stance). The problem is, once you start tempest keep, you will see that the gear starts giving you more AP, more hit, and less crit. Yes, your crit actually starts to decrease, and you find your hit rating over the cap with no hit rating enchants or gems by the time you are in MH!!!

Fury, on the contrary, scales great with AP and hit rating. High hit rating will eliminate glancing blows and misses, while BT is based directly on AP. Do not expect to see MS crits above 3k untill you are decked in BT gear, but you will easily see 3k+ BT crits in SSC gear. In addition to that, your white dmg will have increased significantly (1k+ white crit with 1 hander?) and heroic strikes will be critting like 1.5k+, due to increased AP bonuses.

To summarize, up to T4 equvialent level, I can say 33/28 build will beat fury, as fury will be missing, glancing, and BT will not be hitting that hard. T5 is transition zone. At T6, fury will be so good that people will expect you to vanish, or stunlock things. And I am sure it will also compensate for the loss of blood frenzy. (Expect 4k+ BT crits, and 5k with deathwish!!!, raid buffed ofc)

[darkphilosopher]

Fury, on the contrary, scales great with AP and hit rating. High hit rating will eliminate glancing blows and misses, while BT is based directly on AP. Do not expect to see MS crits above 3k untill you are decked in BT gear, but you will easily see 3k+ BT crits in SSC gear. In addition to that, your white dmg will have increased significantly (1k+ white crit with 1 hander?) and heroic strikes will be critting like 1.5k+, due to increased AP bonuses.

I'm pretty sure it's impossible to eliminate glancing blows.

[Coconuter]

Now first off my main isn't a warrior, its a rogue, but any more the majority of raids will have fury warriors and no MS spec warriors anymore.

i've seen this in a ton of guilds, and find it rather annoying

now does fury give a significant more dps than MS, and if so why arent the raiders using blood frenzy from the MS spec anymore to give a boost to all hunters, warriors, druids and rogues that are in there doing damage.

Blood frenzy would increase the dps of the raid by a fair amount, but anymore nobody uses it and guilds look down on it... IMO the guilds doing this should reconsider this from what I've seen.

After all, even if that one person's dps is a little higher, overall the 5-8 people in the raid with 4% more damage would more than make up for w/e the loss people see in MS. Let alone increased damage from tanks would increase threat and allow the casters more dps as well.

Experienced warriors can skip this.

You should have mentioned your raid progression and the level of your gear. I have been raiding 33/28. The 33/28 hybrid build differs a lot from pure fury build in terms of scaling.

Meaning:

As you get better gear, your MS crits will not get significantly bigger. (New 2hander will move you a few %, but you will probably upgrade your weapon twice through raid progression and that's all). You have little benefit with increased AP. On the other hand, you will improve greatly with +crit. (You need to crit to get rage, proc flurry, activate deep wounds, get impale bonus, etc...) (Expect around 40% unbuffed with axe spec in zerker stance). The problem is, once you start tempest keep, you will see that the gear starts giving you more AP, more hit, and less crit. Yes, your crit actually starts to decrease, and you find your hit rating over the cap with no hit rating enchants or gems by the time you are in MH!!!

Fury, on the contrary, scales great with AP and hit rating. High hit rating will eliminate glancing blows and misses, while BT is based directly on AP. Do not expect to see MS crits above 3k untill you are decked in BT gear, but you will easily see 3k+ BT crits in SSC gear. In addition to that, your white dmg will have increased significantly (1k+ white crit with 1 hander?) and heroic strikes will be critting like 1.5k+, due to increased AP bonuses.

To summarize, up to T4 equvialent level, I can say 33/28 build will beat fury, as fury will be missing, glancing, and BT will not be hitting that hard. T5 is transition zone. At T6, fury will be so good that people will expect you to vanish, or stunlock things. And I am sure it will also compensate for the loss of blood frenzy. (Expect 4k+ BT crits, and 5k with deathwish!!!, raid buffed ofc)

Alright, well the warrior that I based this post somewhat around to see what others thought, is probably more experianced than you.

He says the highest dps is the 33/28, along with quite a few other warriors that have full T6, he uses the 2hander off archimonde, and bases his dps around slam.

I'm not sure where you get some of this like glancing blows being lowered and such, but I know that part is wrong. And the scaling factor?? everything sclaes upward with higher atp and such, i mean how do u really think that crits will decrease significantly on a 2hander vs a one hander. After all, attack power directly changes the dps of a weapon in a standard slope no matter what type of weapon or class you are.

Haste you seem to not be taking into effect at the BT level to make up for those. since haste is better for slower weapons, and the amount of haste offered then, it would make a more significant change in that, increasing white dps significantly.

[Cynadra]

I have never been out DPSed by an arms warrior, and I am fury, and rogues have trouble beating me. (When you go armory me I will be arms for a few days to PvP) but the reason to bring a fury warrior is for imp shouts and the great damage we can bring, most guilds will bring both an arms and fury warrior. A decently geared fury warrior should have ~240+ hit, 1700 AP, and 28% or more crit. A big reason a lot of fury warriors are low on the meters is due to low hit or AP. Some of it is skill based too.

[Morthengel]

Alright, well the warrior that I based this post somewhat around to see what others thought, is probably more experianced than you.

He says the highest dps is the 33/28, along with quite a few other warriors that have full T6, he uses the 2hander off archimonde, and bases his dps around slam.

I'm not sure where you get some of this like glancing blows being lowered and such, but I know that part is wrong. And the scaling factor?? everything sclaes upward with higher atp and such, i mean how do u really think that crits will decrease significantly on a 2hander vs a one hander. After all, attack power directly changes the dps of a weapon in a standard slope no matter what type of weapon or class you are.

Haste you seem to not be taking into effect at the BT level to make up for those. since haste is better for slower weapons, and the amount of haste offered then, it would make a more significant change in that, increasing white dps significantly.

When I say fury, I assume dual wielding (some use 2 handers), hence the importance of hit rating. (You know your chance to miss is linked to glancing blows right? You have a rogue.)

I do not know what spec is your warrior, but in an MS build all your attacks are weapon damage based normalized attacks. Meaning damage = avarage weapon damage + AP*3.2/14. I do not know what you mean by standard slope, but I can say it is a big chunk of constant + a linear slope. Weapon damage here is a very large component due to using huge 2 handers. Let us say you have 100 AP improvement. Then your MS, slam and ww abilities will hit 23 harder, but your bloodthirst will hit 45 harder.

Waiting for a 3+second swing timer is not more dps than dual wielding when you have 270 hit rating. Either with haste or not.

I also base my dps around slam, wth, what else am I going to base it around? Hamstring?

I never said the crit% will decrease between a 2hander and a 1 hander. Crit will decrease due to itemization. When I get my next tier level belt, I'll be losing 1.5% crit in Hyjal. Applies to many other items too.

Anyway, just wanted to help... You ask a question, then start questioning the answerer's knowledge and credibility, while you lack the basic knowledge of the class mechanics. That is rude, and does not make sense. Your friend may have 1% more experience, we have just broken into MH.

An 33/28 warrior can top dmg meters if:

-Rogues are dagger specced
-Rogues are dead
-Rogues are slacking badly
-Rogues are heavily undergeared

There is always the myth of MS warriors are destroying the dmg meters, yet I have never seen a screenshot. Maybe you can make us a favor and post a screenshot? Usually with 33/28 a warrior should be above hunters, at the same level with frost mages, but if 33/28 warrior is competing with your sword rogues, there is somethig wrong with your rogues.

[overneathe]

We're in your spec flamin your roguez. :]

[Morthengel]

Being melee dps, I am in our rogue channel too. Sometimes I forget being a warrior and join the qq of that sword not dropping and not being able to spec combat swords. (Shhh, they also do try to pretend I am one of them so I won't feel lonely hehe)

[darigan]

There is no possibility to lower your glancing Blows... except lower the leveldifference between you and your target.

[Doberkill]

... not 100% sure about this.. but doesn't Weapon-Skill minimize the chance of glansing?

- Dober

[overneathe]

... not 100% sure about this.. but doesn't Weapon-Skill minimize the chance of glansing?

- Dober

That's practically what darigan said, 5 weapon skill points = 1 char level. So decreased skill points = lower level hit.

[darigan]

No, Glancing Blows are not reduced by Weaponskill. Weaponskill raises your Hit and Crit (2nd only against Targets that are 2 or more level above your own level) value und decrease the dodge value of your target.

Effect from Weapon skill

Weapon skill greater than the normal max for your level (i.e. your level * 5) does not reduce the chance for a glancing blow to land.

Prior to 2.0.1, extra weapon skill did reduce the severity of the damage reduction, but this is no longer the case.

Glancing blows do not occur against players, only against mobs. At present ranged attacks do not result in glancing blows.

You can check wowwiki for all the information there is about glancings.

[overneathe]

I can check wowwiki for just about anything related to mechanics as I did for my druid but where's the fun in that? Whole topics will be removed and no fun... :]

[Doberkill]

..Darigan.. call me a noob.. now I'm confused!

There is no possibility to lower your glancing Blows... except lower the leveldifference between you and your target.

I've always thought that was what weapon-skill did.. or sort of..??

No, Glancing Blows are not reduced by Weaponskill. Weaponskill raises your Hit and Crit (2nd only against Targets that are 2 or more level above your own level) value und decrease the dodge value of your target.

Effect from Weapon skill

Weapon skill greater than the normal max for your level (i.e. your level * 5) does not reduce the chance for a glancing blow to land.

Prior to 2.0.1, extra weapon skill did reduce the severity of the damage reduction, but this is no longer the case.

Glancing blows do not occur against players, only against mobs. At present ranged attacks do not result in glancing blows.

You can check wowwiki for all the information there is about glancings.

So.. there is no way to minimize the damage-loss from Glancing Blows at all???

I know WoWWiki.. just not as active a reader as I used to be!

hmmm... maybe I just need to read up on mechanics a bit...

[Morthengel]

I thought after patch 2.1, hit rating also reduced the chance of getting glancing blows.

How did I get this misconception? ???

[Coconuter]

When I say fury, I assume dual wielding (some use 2 handers), hence the importance of hit rating. (You know your chance to miss is linked to glancing blows right? You have a rogue.)

I do not know what spec is your warrior, but in an MS build all your attacks are weapon damage based normalized attacks. Meaning damage = avarage weapon damage + AP*3.2/14. I do not know what you mean by standard slope, but I can say it is a big chunk of constant + a linear slope. Weapon damage here is a very large component due to using huge 2 handers. Let us say you have 100 AP improvement. Then your MS, slam and ww abilities will hit 23 harder, but your bloodthirst will hit 45 harder.

Waiting for a 3+second swing timer is not more dps than dual wielding when you have 270 hit rating. Either with haste or not.

I also base my dps around slam, wth, what else am I going to base it around? Hamstring?

I never said the crit% will decrease between a 2hander and a 1 hander. Crit will decrease due to itemization. When I get my next tier level belt, I'll be losing 1.5% crit in Hyjal. Applies to many other items too.

Anyway, just wanted to help... You ask a question, then start questioning the answerer's knowledge and credibility, while you lack the basic knowledge of the class mechanics. That is rude, and does not make sense. Your friend may have 1% more experience, we have just broken into MH.

An 33/28 warrior can top dmg meters if:

-Rogues are dagger specced
-Rogues are dead
-Rogues are slacking badly
-Rogues are heavily undergeared

There is always the myth of MS warriors are destroying the dmg meters, yet I have never seen a screenshot. Maybe you can make us a favor and post a screenshot? Usually with 33/28 a warrior should be above hunters, at the same level with frost mages, but if 33/28 warrior is competing with your sword rogues, there is somethig wrong with your rogues.

Alright, since you say rude, for starting a sentence off as "experianced people can ignore this" like you believe your 100% right is rude. Just fyi.
'
Secondly, questioning something when I don't see a complete answer should be expected. You state that 270 hit rating is perfect for fury, when the cap is 308 for duel weilding. Also 2handers will reach the hit rating cap sooner than the duel wielders will, thus allowing for more crit and atp to be added into their build, which should balence out.

Also the effects of haste were never addressed. Haste affecting the weapon speed by percentages, would have more effect on a slow weapon than a faster one. So at the hyjal, BT level, with the added haste to armor the slow 2handers would become faster, significantly increasing their dps. On the other hand 2 one handed weapons would recieve similar amounts overall.

Also the class mechanics?? I know that fury warriors will get a 1.625 versus a 1 usage out of atp compared from duel wielding to 2handers. Your forgetting the scales of effects on slam rotations and such. i know quite a bit, and can state from recent patches glancing blows are seperate from hit rating all together. They changed that before BC when people were getting rid of glancing blows completely, and made it so there was a larger percent. Then they decreased the percent, but made it so hit rating wouldn't effect them. Hit rating effects the percent of misses you have with weapons (this is brought up on tons of rogue forums, i guess fury warriors haven't done the same yet if your numero uno.)

BTW. windfury works wonders, get raid buffs.

Heres a link to a good forum of the 33/28 warrior I started this because, read up and learn.
If you want to argue that your right and he's wrong go for it... plus he has a couple of SS's that you can ask for.

http://www.dtguilds.com/forums/showt...?t=7684&page=1