SV raid spec

[Guran]

@Trizade:
personally I take Savage Strikes first, then Deflection, just cause I'm someone that likes damage mitigation (have a hunter & enh sham and warrior & pala both tanks :P). Entrapment I just don't like cause it breaks apart groups of mobs. If it was an all-or-nothing effect with a chance per trap rather then per target ...

As for the Int goes, I would just like to remind you that in the expansion, Shamans will get base 1 AP from Str & 1 from Agi as Rogues do, plus 1 AP from Int with talents.
This will synergize a lot of needed stats of both mail DPS classes to both Agility (they will also need our amazing truck load of agi for 1% melee crit) and Intellect, so expect to see a lot more of those on the incoming raiding drops.
Also, you currently as a BM Hunter need only 375 mp5 total to have perpetual DPS (with a 2.00 speed weapon, did the math for a friend's guildie).
In the expansion you will need 1087.5 (that's 290% of what you use now) with spamming steady shot every 1.5 sec + kill command every 6 seconds (kick the auto-shot speed restriction from your macro). And that's assuming Serpent's Swiftness doesn't change the GCD, which I actually assume it will (AH-Erlebnis while being drunk FTW), so you'll be closer to 1.2k mp5 used. You WILL need talents such as Invigoration for that, which scales with your mana pool, which scales with ... Intellect. Sv Hunters will be going for the Intellect as well and imo MM is still a fairly PvP-oriented tree, and MM raiders will have to go deep into int/mp5 with AotV on constantly to be able to keep it up in raids.
Oh, and as Intellect goes, as mid-T5-geared Surv I have 290 unbuffed, then again, 3:2 rotations are so mana inefficient it's just not right :s

[Trizade]

Comming to metion in my shoes if i was specced survival and i pulled agro, Deterrance with the sunwell radiance would be far from preventing anything unfortunately, not to metion currently if you pulled agro which you shouldn't unless a tank dies your more than likely to get instagibbed anyhow ^^. Entrapment true, especially take felmyst for example, breaking away the adds from AOE on the move there is more than likely to get an ear clipping from your raid leader.

Interesting stats with the required 1087.5 MP5 being required, thats a hellofalot. Currently i'm in a bit of trouble if Wisdom is not judged on some fights meaning i have to chain Fel Mana Potions to be able to keep up with anything, bearing in mind for survival it's slightly better for them. I don't think the figure above will be final, either that or i take back what i said an expect an awful lot of mana comming our way. But say we have a mana pool of 10,000, 2% mana restored every 8 seconds and a chance to crit restoring more mana asuming that we crit three times in ten seconds, that would be about 200+600 mana returned every 10 seconds. So 400 mana returned out of your 1087.5. This is putting aside any other abilites at the time, means we're going to require an awful lot of mana pots as usual or other support ie the pet talent from the ultility tree resotring 40% mana every 5 mins. I guess we will have to wait and see by putting into action ourselves.

[HenRock]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000

i liked this for raid spec... mainly focusing on using traps as like an extra sheep and rest doing extra damage or helping party

[Huggykaze]

The 3% dmg on Serpent Sting is worth it.

I did a comparing with highest ranks of both Steady Shot and Serpent Sting in the expansion using my current gear (2.6k AP against target including everything, 40% crit including MT)

Result:
Steady Shot: 2047,47 damage each hit
Serpent Sting: 1543,5 damage each 15 sec.
That's 504 damage lost every 15 seconds to keep Serpent up.
As a result I get atleast:
Steady Shot: 9 times 61,42 damage
Serpent Sting: 46,31 extra damage
Total damage gained: 599 damage
Win of 95 damage or 6 DPS

Granted, it's not much, but that's excluding armor on the mob, or any Nature damge increasing abilities such as a shadow priest, a boomkin, an Enhancement Shaman (while the SS debuff is up ofc), ... and not counting in the fact that at 30% you're using Kill Shot, which has even higher average damage.
So I'ld say it's not exactly amazing, but it is better.
(Note: Steady Shot scales far better with AP and also scales with weapon dmg and ammo, so the further you will go in raids the less benefit this talent will give you)

The 10-15% is what my pet is now. He usually is around this number depending on what group I'm in and what buffs I have on. But with pet's white hits, Claw & Kill Command added up that's what shows on my SW Stats personal dmg chart.

As for GftT goes, 1 point in it means your pet will be able to do 1 Claw/Bite/whatever everytime you crit, which I think costs 25 as well in WLK (but I might be wrong). With an average damage of around 150, you can easily check the DPS:
Assume an average 15 attacks that can crit every 15 seconds (6 auto-shots + 9 steady/kill shots). That's 1 attack per second that can crit. With a 25% crit rate, that's 37.5 DPS from GftT. With a 40% crit rate that's 60 DPS. That's including MT ofcourse.
If you max out GftT you will make it far more difficult as you will constantly be topping off his focus bar, but say around 70-100 DPS with Focus to spare for other abilities.

Edit 1:
Serpent Sting with Shadow Priest(5%) and Boomkin(6%) would get almost 200 damage increase, meaning the difference with my current gear would become 329,56 damage between steady and serpent and a damage gain from the talent of 604,36 which results in a 18 DPS gain. That's with T5-level gear. A starting raider would see more gain from this due to the Serpent Sting damage being closer to Steady Shot.

Edit 2: Just 3 things for Spl4sh3r:
1) Entrapment + Explosive Shot. One only works on close groups, the other one breaks close groups apart. Think about it.
2) Master Tactician in the expansion will give around 6% crit with a 2.80 speed weapon, that's 20% more effective then what you get from Lethal Shots. But a base of around 35% raid buffed is indeed a pretty good goal to aim for. It would give you 41% with MT, which is more then enough to make AP start scaling really nice. Problem is, you need agi for EW, which gives both :P
3) Potent Venom does not give you 3% DPS, it varies depending on your AP scaling, the armor of the mob and so on. On mobs with high (20ish%) armor just Serpent Sting along is better, on 0 armor mobs it gives you the full 18 DPS at the loss of a possible crit.

m8 I'd like to notice that 1:1 rotation sucks, and will sucks for survival hunter in WLK (and for all else hunters [now you can use it with 4/8 t6, but looking at your stats 2,6k ap full buffed+40%crit @ buff uptime (MT) you surly don't have it;P]) you simply cant count bonus from that talent in this way.

Though! I agree it's useless because blizzard has changed damage bonus to 1%(!!!) I know they are complete idiots... also proc chance on Hunting Party has been decreased to max 60% it's kinda nerf cuz before we could easly save up some talent points and now we cannot. Cooldown is still there (yaay).

Overall some nerfs that were completly not needed, survival tree was really best looking one in terms of being buffed, and wasn't anyhow OP.

As for build:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000

With typical dps pet like Raptor (gonna be best dps pet now)

or

http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000

With Spore Bat (-700Armor on target) - this would be pure raid buffing set up (prefer it this way, cus it's supposed to raid kill boss, not we race each other in dps [though it helps with killing:P])

All depends if our mana pools will be high enough to let us use Explosive Shot every 6sec on boss fight (it's nice damage boost)

Also I'd like to notice that with 2 new shots (Kill/Explosive) and deep mana pool, we should be able to spam special shots, missing Steadies, though with ammo dps, it's gonna be way better than Arcane.

[Guran]

@Henrock:
2nd point in Improved Traps is useless against everything but bosses (>2lvl difference)
Missing points in Surefooted will be a major DPS loss, I wouldn't advice it.

@Rufix:
I'm not sure if you know, but in the expansion there won't be anymore auto-shot clipping, so a 1:1 shot rotation would indeed suck. Only spec now that can use 1:1 is a BM hunter, for who I did that math for.
As for MT uptime goes: 1 shot every 1.5 seconds (GCD) + 2.8 speed ranged weapon with a 15% quiver and then just see how many shots on average you fit in 8 seconds. Do 1-0.90^(amount of shots) and you have the uptime of MT. Multiply by 10% and add that as average crit rate.
This is all excluding Windfury totem, Haste gear, speed procs/buffs, ...
I'ld love to see where you got the 60% on Hunting Party information though.

As for the 1087.5 mp5 goes, that's excluding Serpent Swiftness as I wasn't sure if that reduces the GCD as well. And only spamming Steady Shot as well.

HP will mean about 100 mp5 with a 10k mana pool. (For your entire party though :P)
TotH will be around 100-150mp5, or a 10-15% decrease of your Shots cost.
AotV with 500-600 Int at lvl 80 will mean up to 300-350 mp5
Newest mana pots (3240-5400 mana return) is another 180mp5
Looking at the current JoW and how it scales I'm guessing ~200mp5 from that.
Talented Mana Spring & BoW will be another 170mp5
That's enough to keep up spamming Steady Shot & Kill Command.
All of this is excluding haste increases ofcourse, if WF totem will also reduce GCD, you'll be looking at another 200mp5 you need.

[Huggykaze]

@Henrock:
2nd point in Improved Traps is useless against everything but bosses (>2lvl difference)
Missing points in Surefooted will be a major DPS loss, I wouldn't advice it.

@Rufix:
I'm not sure if you know, but in the expansion there won't be anymore auto-shot clipping, so a 1:1 shot rotation would indeed suck. Only spec now that can use 1:1 is a BM hunter, for who I did that math for.
As for MT uptime goes: 1 shot every 1.5 seconds (GCD) + 2.8 speed ranged weapon with a 15% quiver and then just see how many shots on average you fit in 8 seconds. Do 1-0.90^(amount of shots) and you have the uptime of MT. Multiply by 10% and add that as average crit rate.
This is all excluding Windfury totem, Haste gear, speed procs/buffs, ...
I'ld love to see where you got the 60% on Hunting Party information though.

As for the 1087.5 mp5 goes, that's excluding Serpent Swiftness as I wasn't sure if that reduces the GCD as well. And only spamming Steady Shot as well.

HP will mean about 100 mp5 with a 10k mana pool. (For your entire party though :P)
TotH will be around 100-150mp5, or a 10-15% decrease of your Shots cost.
AotV with 500-600 Int at lvl 80 will mean up to 300-350 mp5
Newest mana pots (3240-5400 mana return) is another 180mp5
Looking at the current JoW and how it scales I'm guessing ~200mp5 from that.
Talented Mana Spring & BoW will be another 170mp5
That's enough to keep up spamming Steady Shot & Kill Command.
All of this is excluding haste increases ofcourse, if WF totem will also reduce GCD, you'll be looking at another 200mp5 you need.

Yes but as BM you won't get MT cus this build gonna suck^^ anyway agree with all rest

[Guran]

Yes but as BM you won't get MT cus this build gonna suck^^ anyway agree with all rest

Ofc you don't have MT as BM, but there won't be a difference in cycles anymore between SV and BM, atleast not in when the abilities are used ....

[Huggykaze]

Ofc you don't have MT as BM, but there won't be a difference in cycles anymore between SV and BM, atleast not in when the abilities are used ....

true, i think with new itemisation (it looks like we get lots int) we'll be able to spam spam spam Cooldowns with SteadyShot instead of Arcane (used as dispeller) and just Kill/3x Steady Rotation after boss comes down to 30/20% (15%crit bonus on Kill Shot when you get target to 30% hp)

[Guran]

true, i think with new itemisation (it looks like we get lots int) we'll be able to spam spam spam Cooldowns with SteadyShot instead of Arcane (used as dispeller) and just Kill/3x Steady Rotation after boss comes down to 30/20% (15%crit bonus on Kill Shot when you get target to 30% hp)

Possibly use Serpent Sting for Potent Venom as well Although the damage is really expensive (Serpent Stinng will cost 1 mana more then KS with the talent :s)

I'm wondering if Explosive Shot will do 2 or 3 ticks of damage though, might be worth cycling it in as well.

So many choices to make in the expansion ...

[Huggykaze]

Possibly use Serpent Sting for Potent Venom as well Although the damage is really expensive (Serpent Stinng will cost 1 mana more then KS with the talent :s)

I'm wondering if Explosive Shot will do 2 or 3 ticks of damage though, might be worth cycling it in as well.

So many choices to make in the expansion ...

Explosive Shot will tick twice;P Though who knows maybe will get 1 immidiate tick. As for Serpent Sting and Potent Venom, this talent got nerfed. It increases damage by 1% only.

As for Explosive Shot even with 2 ticks it's gonna be kinda high dmg, so i consider weaving this into rotation depending on mana pool.

[Guran]

Explosive Shot will tick twice;P Though who knows maybe will get 1 immidiate tick. As for Serpent Sting and Potent Venom, this talent got nerfed. It increases damage by 1% only.

As for Explosive Shot even with 2 ticks it's gonna be kinda high dmg, so i consider weaving this into rotation depending on mana pool.

Still it's 3% extra damage done.

As it looks now, I'm guessing my rotation will be something like:
Serpent Sting, 9xSteady for mana conservation (untill 30% hp on target)
Serpent Sting, ES, 4xSteady, ES, 3xSteady (for haste clipping the CD)
Once you hit 30% hp on the target you ofcourse switch 1 Steady out for Kill Shot.

Athough the haste & GCD thingy is concerning me atm

[makak]

explosive shot do dmg 3x times :>
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aaf9hl_Eua8
and should get bonus from curse of elements and scorch :P so it will be probly MUST HAVE in your rotation :P
i will probly use build like this :
http://www.mmo-champion.com/talent/?...00000000000000
ind imp fd is another must have because with over 50% crit chance raid buffed you can easy get aggro from tank even after use FD twice and if you will have resist after that you will have 30 sec for check your mail or msn :P
and to all those thinking about use roar of recovery : forgot about it all t5 pet talents are bm only because they need 21 points while hunters without beast mastery will have only 16 points

[Huggykaze]

Still it's 3% extra damage done.

Check official Blizzard's Calculators @ www.wow-europe.com, they say it's 1%

@makak I'd rather put points in imp. Hunter's Mark and Rapid Killing

[Guran]

Check official Blizzard's Calculators @ www.wow-europe.com, they say it's 1%

@makak I'd rather put points in imp. Hunter's Mark and Rapid Killing

The talent calculator also says the Elemental Precision talent for Ele shams is 6% hit and -10% threat while they first changed every caster's talents to -30% threat and 3% hit max.

About the pet talent points: I heard that the tooltip saying the end-talents requiring 20 points was only a bug. Wouldn't be fair considering the power of those abilities tbh.

[kakashi]

The talent calculator also says the Elemental Precision talent for Ele shams is 6% hit and -10% threat while they first changed every caster's talents to -30% threat and 3% hit max.

About the pet talent points: I heard that the tooltip saying the end-talents requiring 20 points was only a bug. Wouldn't be fair considering the power of those abilities tbh.

if you read on front page you'll notice in the notes that the Elemental Precision for Ele shammies got changed back to the current version(6% hit -10% threat) its not like ele shammies got a threat problem(i should know...) other then fights like VR... and removing 3% hit would be a quite huge dps nerf for the ele shammies... seeing as they'd have to stack hit aswell as crit/haste/spell dmg aswell to be even close to a boomkin in dmg done... then again its blizzard first after 4years(will be when Expension is released) they'll give em another school spell then Nature but ofc they give it with a CD typical blizz so i guess we can see this get changed back because blizz loves us so much :/ anyways this is hunter forum so /slash care

[Guran]

if you read on front page you'll notice in the notes that the Elemental Precision for Ele shammies got changed back to the current version(6% hit -10% threat) its not like ele shammies got a threat problem(i should know...) other then fights like VR... and removing 3% hit would be a quite huge dps nerf for the ele shammies... seeing as they'd have to stack hit aswell as crit/haste/spell dmg aswell to be even close to a boomkin in dmg done... then again its blizzard first after 4years(will be when Expension is released) they'll give em another school spell then Nature but ofc they give it with a CD typical blizz so i guess we can see this get changed back because blizz loves us so much :/ anyways this is hunter forum so /slash care

I was just saying that the talent calculator isn't always correct, I mean they 'forgot' to mention that enh shams are getting the AP from str & agi changed. Unless it's currently in beta, I'm not entirely eager to believe the changes of the calculator.