Judgement of the Wise changed to a "buff"

[exphius]

warriors, rogues, deathknights will always be able to constant dps and they will never be completly out of rage/energy/rune they will always go back up one way or another.
But paladins we dps on auto attack, DS on a 10 second cd, CS on a 6 second cd, judgment on a 8 second cd. I dont understand why they wouldnt give us healthy way of return on mana.
If the new mechanics is intended for us to run oom super fast and be permanent mana starved. whats the point in cd's on our attacks then? I was under the impression that cd's on the attack is to set a curtain amount of dps. On the other hand if we have no dps at all cause of mana issues i dont see the point in cd's anymore on our attacks.

Gives a new meaning to burst damage.

[Moar Pew Pew]

Not you moar. There was someone who had posted about an "infinate " mana bar

Ah, my bad. Also I just kind of came up with the perfect way to explain why Ret being able to attack forever is still us having indefinate mana. Ret may be able to use all of it's offensive spells without needing to worry about mana, but they sure as hell do if they want to throw some heals around.

We have exactly the capabilites to do what we need to do with this talent, but we can still use our ability to heal if needed.

[Rambobarbq]

the thing is warrior got rage, rogue got energy and deathknight got rune with cooldown to control the burst they all can offer.

while pally atm in wotlk can go all out with only the GCD to wait for. no other source of control.

im not doing a rant or anything i just try to expain why they made the change for me it seemed, maybe they had to nerf the dmg or the regeneration. they did the regen which still make you able to burst for arena and for pve will be fine with all the regen available

[Rambobarbq]

Ret Paladins DO have a speed-control fixture with the old jotw system, and it is VERY similar to energy.

A paladin can do anything they want, within an 8 seconds period, so long as it does not exceed the amount of mana they will receive from jotw. If they do, they have to sit and get judgement of wisdom procs (with their 4s internal CD!) to get enough mana to function again by judging with the gain.

A rogue can do anything they want, as long as they do not overspend their allotment. their energy will go from 0 to 100 in roughly 10 (? or was it 20?) seconds. however, they do not need to use an ability to demand that energy, and do not have to sit and wait for the proc.

their abilities are also relatively comparable in cost.

plus, .5% of 2900 is pissyshit compared to what we NEED to do ANYTHING past one storm.

Otherwise, paladins might as well all join guilds called <premature ejaculation>, cause we 'gots ED, we fap once and then the target asks "is that it? already limp?"

Thank for explainging this but i believe the raid damage gonna be fine, we need to see it first, for solo/grinding welcome to any caster world of kill and sit/drink

[exphius]

the thing is warrior got rage, rogue got energy and deathknight got rune with cooldown to control the burst they all can offer.

while pally atm in wotlk can go all out with only the GCD to wait for. no other source of control.

im not doing a rant or anything i just try to expain why they made the change for me it seemed, maybe they had to nerf the dmg or the regeneration. they did the regen which still make you able to burst for arena and for pve will be fine with all the regen available

look above your post, i just said almost the same thing. ><

[Moar Pew Pew]

Thank for explainging this but i believe the raid damage gonna be fine, we need to see it first, for solo/grinding welcome to any caster world of kill and sit/drink

I mean this as an actual and honest question with no insult implied; do you play a Ret Pally? I dont mean to ask this to be condesending or anything.

[meliancill]

lol ram... do you play a ret paladin or do you play holy / prot. beffor you start talking i suggest you play a ret in dungeons and pvp beffor you start saying that the mana we have / get will let our dps stay up.

we just DONT have the mana even now to sustane a dps output in raids - hence the reason very few guilds bring rets. and in wrath they are droping our top mana from around 7k fully geard 9k raid buffed to 5k fully geard 6-7k raid buffed. but on top of that they are making our spells cost more mana. reports are on beta servers ( even though judgments do no damage ) that a normal dps rotation for a ret paladin has them oom in 20-30 seconds even with some int on gear. i dont realy care how much spell watching you do the spells take to much mana and you dont have it. the reason to bring you into a raid is buffs and ( in wrath ) dps. and you could dps because you could sustane a good dps rotation for the entire fight. now with this change not only can you change a paladin out for a furry warrior and get the same ap buffs for your melee but the paladin cant sustane more than 20-30 seconds of dps were as a furry warrior can go on for ever.

so please beffor posting think.

[Moar Pew Pew]

Imo the whole basis around Jotw was very well done and quite thought out in it's past form. It, like you said had a very energyesque feel to it, requiring you to stayw ithin means, but always having a reasonable but no OP out of sticky mana situations.

Like I posted

Righteous Vengence- Increases critical damage bonus of your Judgement and Divine Storm spells by 25%. In addition Your Judgements of the Wise restore mana back to the Paladin equal to 60% of the damage done. 5/5

5% critical damage to judgements and divine storms, and 12 % Mana restore per point, but pulling you out of the other mana return effect from baseline Jotw.

IMO this would be the best alternative. deep enough to make it out of reasonable reach for other specs, but giving us what we need.

Noooooo! :'( You can't kill my Shockadin dreams! Baww lol

[Moar Pew Pew]

Umm, aside from the borderline flames my question induced...

I just meant to ask Rambobarbq this question because it seemed like he had the wrong idea of what a Ret Paladin was. A Ret Paladin is not a caster; a Ret Paladin is a melee/caster hybrid. In WoW what sets melee apart from casters is endlessly sustainable damage and therefore not ooming. So here is what you are mixing up; when a Paladin is melee dpsing or tanking for that matter, we are melee, but, while healing we are casters. So if we use this simple logic, then the only time we should be capable of ooming by ourselves is when we are healing, and in current beta this is true. And for the most part it works great!

I think you may just be looking at Ret Paladins the wrong way, that's all.

Also, everyone, lets try to keep the insults to a minimum.&#160;

[Moar Pew Pew]

awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww...................

Dont worry. Everyone is still allowed to rant about 12 year olds with beta keys! ;D

[meliancill]

IF they keep it the way it is and it makes it to live come the 3.0 patch i will just make a death knight because anyone who has played a paladin for a while knows when a paldin change is put in it takes over a year to change it back. if they change it beffor the patch comes out then my paladin will be my main agen. it realy just depends.

[Moar Pew Pew]

I'll probably just end up leveling Prot, personally. At least then when I go oom I'll have taken out about 13 mobs and may have to think about a health pot some time soon. XD

[grenalden]

Do you know how excited I was to try out a dual Ret-pallie 2v2 when the talents went through? I thought it was gonna be so insanely awesome.. But if this change goes through, we're gonna be the same Mana starved red headed step children we've always been.. I can't believe Blizz doesn't see this.

I understand that 10 > 3... But seriously? And to the guy who said, 'now you know what it's like to be a caster having to drink, blah blah.' Try getting out of combat in the arena as a ret paladin to go drink some Stars' tears and tell me how that goes. Not to mention you'd be doing it every 45 seconds to 1 minute because you run out of mana so damn fast.

This change will completely kill my desire to play my paladin in the expansion.

[Clueless]

if blizz are really set on the skill providing regen to 10 raid members at the very least let it proc back "60% of damage as mana" effect for ourselves at least

[meliancill]

yes and i think that is how it will end up... however this is blizz we are talking about and they have done things like this to paladins for the past 4 years so who knows. but i have a back up plan.

[Moar Pew Pew]

yes and i think that is how it will end up... however this is blizz we are talking about and they have done things like this to paladins for the past 4 years so who knows. but i have a back up plan.

Rolling a Death Knight does not count as a back up plan. haha :P

[meliancill]

it does if you play ret and they dont change jotw to give mana back to the paladin ;D

[Moar Pew Pew]

"I... was a Warrior of the light. Charged with the protection of the weak and the eradication of evil, I wielded my weapon for the Righteous. But man is not incorruptable... a man has his limits. There is a point where the only truely fair and just act is to kill without discretion. Now I wield power the light knows not...."

- passage from the personal journal of Meliancill the Death Knight.




Thinking something along these lines? lol (I'm seriously bored if you cant tell.)

[meliancill]

lol so am i ;D you should see the discution i had on the other post between kulgan and the wotlk team. infact 1 sec ill copy past it over for you guys to have some fun.



conversation

Wotlk team: kulgan can you be a good boy and treat everyone the same?

kulgan: yah if i have to i gues. can i please help now?

wotlk team: well i think its ok but you can never do it agen!

kulgaan: i promis never ever agen ill be fair to paladins this time

*wotlk team lets kulgan into the wotlk design room and says*

wotlk team: ok we are doing some raid changes. you can have this computer to do your programing.

kulgan: * chuckls under his breath * yah ok ill work on making every class even *hehe*

wotlk team: ok we are going to get lunch see you in a few

* wotlk team walks out of the room *

kulgan: haha time to screw over paladins agen! but this time i know how. i have to keep it even so lets see. ooo paladins can dps now because they get there mana back so lets see... * kulgan thinks for a few* ahh i have it ill just screw over ALL mana regen classes. change all there mana tallents to a 10 second buff granting .5% of there mana back wich is what 2.5% mana. yah thats it i can still screw paladins but this time i can do it without get yelled at hehe.

*wotlk team walks into the room an hour later*

wotlk team: SUN OF A BITCH kulgan we told you not to screw over paladins

kulgan: but i didnt you see ALL classes got the same change and it even got the same name

wotlk team: well you have a point. lets just put it threw afterall paladins didnt need all that mana regen afterall did they?

kulgan: mwahahahhahahahhaha... i have yet agen put paladins back to healers. i OWN ALL!

----------------------------------------

this is just for fun and yes i know its beta

[Moar Pew Pew]

Use of item check: 1d20 + level, therfore 1d20 + 70.

roll: 1
Total: 71.
DC: 325894578434365780437543657806543.25
critical failure. rocks fall. everyone ooms, then dies.

actually, come to think of it, this D&D reference may be how they decide which dev team member's idea get used:
Billy, youre 1.
Kalgan, youre 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8.
Joe, youre 9
Jane youre 10.

I actually burst out laughing reading that. Kudos. ^_^