PVP Sub Spec- opinions?

[Moncylis]

Reposting because I didn't seem to get much attention for feedback! :'(
Tell me what'cha think, trying to get ideas for my new Rogue come WLK.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...21050135201051

And I'm tied between quite a clump of 'good' talents, as to where to put my last 2 points. :-\

Imp Gouge 2/3- for +1 second, making it 5 seconds, with a 4sec CD stealth = gouge + restealth

Elusiveness 2/2- Being able to Vanish and blind every 2 minutes might help that much more + 1m CoS

Sleight of Hand 2/2- for that extra.. sleight of hand

Filthy Tricks 2/2- 5m Prep looks 'quite' enticing.. + being able to spam my feral druid partner with +15% damage sounds fun.

Master of Sub. 2/3- 7% damage to openers iiiis 7% more damage.. making my initial Ambush/Backstab/w.e else do that much more.. granted I would only be gaining the 7% to ambush once I've restealthed after initiating a fight, since its a given to open(first) with CS

My 3v3 team is myself Rogue, Feral Druid, Holy Pally.

So yea, gimme your thoughts and opinions, open to criticism!
Thanks!

[Oscelot]

Don't go Subtlety. Go Muti/Prep spec

41/3/27
http://wotlk.wowhead.com/?talent=f0e...czZ0hZebbdhudb

[psicorp]

mut prep is a good build, but there is nothing wrongfor sub, especially if he is ok with dropping some damage for mobility. but theres a few pvp talents dont understand why you didnt take, like honor among thieves, elusiveness, setup, and ghostly strike. i leave it to you to figure out exactly how to work them in though

[AnArmedKurd]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...21350135001251
imo. Gouge is useless, wtf @ 1 point in Remorseless Attacks & wtf @ 5 points in Relentless Strikes.

[psicorp]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...21350135001251
imo. Gouge is useless, wtf @ 1 point in Remorseless Attacks & wtf @ 5 points in Relentless Strikes.

what the hell do you have against relentless strikes???

[Skurp]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...21050135001251

I am not sure exactly what I will do yet since they are still changing things but if i did go sub, I would probably do this

[AnArmedKurd]

what the hell do you have against relentless strikes???

Costs too much points. ^^

[psicorp]

Costs too much points. ^^

no, now it cost the talent points it always should have. there is a reason if you check back despite the terrible nerf we didnt explode into tantrums the way you might of expected when they announced it. because everyone who had done the math on RS had KNOWN it was at way OP for an 11 pointer. it was better then every 31 pointer we had. frankly i am glad the nerf came that way instead of them pulling the talent

[Vapor]

What the hell is wrong with you kids...if you are going sub daggers why in the hell would u waste talents by getting hemmo? Also on one of the specs i saw someone not get waylay, but get imp ambush and opportunity? Hmmm ok...Also I really don't see a point to get dual wield specialization if you aren't mutilate or combat....IMO these are going to be the only 2 decent deep sub specs at level 80:

Sub Daggers
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...20150135201251

Sub swords/fists/maces
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...21050135001251

[AnArmedKurd]

no, now it cost the talent points it always should have. there is a reason if you check back despite the terrible nerf we didnt explode into tantrums the way you might of expected when they announced it. because everyone who had done the math on RS had KNOWN it was at way OP for an 11 pointer. it was better then every 31 pointer we had. frankly i am glad the nerf came that way instead of them pulling the talent

Fair enough, I haven't checked up on new stuff about rogues tbh. I knew it was pretty awesome for a 1 point talent though. I'm just not sure if it's that much better than sticking the points somewhere else. :-\

What the hell is wrong with you kids...if you are going sub daggers why in the hell would u waste talents by getting hemmo? Also on one of the specs i saw someone not get waylay, but get imp ambush and opportunity? Hmmm ok...Also I really don't see a point to get dual wield specialization if you aren't mutilate or combat....IMO these are going to be the only 2 decent deep sub specs at level 80:

Sub Daggers
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...20150135201251

Sub swords/fists/maces
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...21050135001251

What's wrong with you then, not getting Ghostly Strike? I don't see what's supposed to be so awesome about Waylay, I don't need it now and I don't think I'll need it in wrath tbh.

[Vapor]

What's wrong with you then, not getting Ghostly Strike? I don't see what's supposed to be so awesome about Waylay, I don't need it now and I don't think I'll need it in wrath tbh.

I did get ghostly strike in the hemmo build, and u can sub in ghostly strike in the dagger one for the 1 point in master of sub, although i can't imagine ever using it over backstab...seems like a waste of energy. And did you not read waylay? 70% slowed movement and 20% slowed attack speed. After u ambush a guy it will be like he has a cripple poison on him already and and sets up like 2 easy backstabs considering u don't have to waste energy on shiv to slow him down. Also for non caster classes 20% slower attack is a pretty big debuff...espically for 2h warriors...it will mitigate a lot of damage. Plus you can vanish and use ambush to get the waylay effect pretty much when ever you want, or use shadow dance and then pop a few ambushes in there...

What would u suggest getting over waylay?

[Mexx]

if u do 2v2 arena with a mage/warlock/ret ghostly strike saves you a lot of HP if used properly, against rogues, retri palas, warriors (just after overpower), and of course against enchancement shamas.

[Goatlord]

I have a few questions:

1. Why doesn't anyone get Honor Among Thieves? It seems really strong to me, but I don't see it in many builds.

2. Why does everyone get Filthy Tricks? Is that mainly for BGs? How often is 5 minutes off preparation going to matter in an arena?

3. Is vile poisons really worth it? I see it in almost everyone's build. It seems like you'll generally be using Crippling/Wound/Mind Numbing in PVP, so that talent is basically strictly 30% less chance for poisons to be dispelled. Is it really worth 3 points?

This is the build I'm looking at for 80 (Dagger/Sub): http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...20350135231051

I'm open to advice/suggestions/answers to my questions. Keep in mind that my only experience playing a 70 rogue is 20 arena games on a friend's rogue to get him points, if any of my questions seem noobish.

[AetherMcLoud]

I have a few questions:

1. Why doesn't anyone get Honor Among Thieves? It seems really strong to me, but I don't see it in many builds.

2. Why does everyone get Filthy Tricks? Is that mainly for BGs? How often is 5 minutes off preparation going to matter in an arena?

3. Is vile poisons really worth it? I see it in almost everyone's build. It seems like you'll generally be using Crippling/Wound/Mind Numbing in PVP, so that talent is basically strictly 30% less chance for poisons to be dispelled. Is it really worth 3 points?

1. I haven't tried the talent but will today. If it also procs from your own critical hits it is awesome, if it only procs from your groups it is still good anyway.

2. With the glyph you can get 3 min preperation, which could matter in arena.

3. Wound does instant damage when it procs, but I recon it is mostly for the dispell chance, and because you need to put your points somewhere

[Deleted]

What the hell is wrong with you kids...if you are going sub daggers why in the hell would u waste talents by getting hemmo? Also on one of the specs i saw someone not get waylay, but get imp ambush and opportunity? Hmmm ok...Also I really don't see a point to get dual wield specialization if you aren't mutilate or combat....IMO these are going to be the only 2 decent deep sub specs at level 80:

Sub Daggers
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...20150135201251

Sub swords/fists/maces
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...21050135001251

Whats with the random 1 point in improved expose armor? : S
And why not go for dual wield specialization?

[Vapor]

I have a few questions:

1. Why doesn't anyone get Honor Among Thieves? It seems really strong to me, but I don't see it in many builds.

2. Why does everyone get Filthy Tricks? Is that mainly for BGs? How often is 5 minutes off preparation going to matter in an arena?

3. Is vile poisons really worth it? I see it in almost everyone's build. It seems like you'll generally be using Crippling/Wound/Mind Numbing in PVP, so that talent is basically strictly 30% less chance for poisons to be dispelled. Is it really worth 3 points?

This is the build I'm looking at for 80 (Dagger/Sub): http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...20350135231051

I'm open to advice/suggestions/answers to my questions. Keep in mind that my only experience playing a 70 rogue is 20 arena games on a friend's rogue to get him points, if any of my questions seem noobish.

1. Honor among thieves is much more raid oriented than PVP/arena. You get enough combo points as it is, and unless u play with a mage or another caster, it doesn't really seem worth it. only time i could see it used in arena would be in 5v5 with lots of casters/healers on ur team.

2.Filthy tricks used to be pointless for pvp, but then they added the 5 mins off prep cooldown which makes it amazing for arena. I have used the old 10 min prep in 1 arena match 3 times before. So having it at 5 mins will make a huge difference in arena matches, especially if you play with a healer in 2s and u get a stall team such as hunter druid. Or warlock druid.

3. Yes. Vile poisons is really worth it and yes it's mainly/only for the resist on dispel chance, though wound poison does do a little damage. You would be surprised how much of a part wound/cripple poison play in arena, and how much more mana the other teams use trying to dispel them and failing because of vile poisons.

now as for your build...I would change it to something like this...

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...20150135201251

That is what spec I am going to be at 80. Currently I am

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...20150135201250

And it works great. I was dominating yesterday with that spec. I even beat ret pallys in duels

[Vapor]

Whats with the random 1 point in improved expose armor? : S
And why not go for dual wield specialization?

Believe it or not, having expose armor cost 20 energy instead of 25 makes a big difference. I feel that is the most useful place for the point. As for dual wield specialization...Unless you go mutilate, or deep combat I don't think it's that useful and points are better spent elsewhere.

[eil]

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...20150135201251

That is what spec I am going to be at 80. Currently I am

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?rogu...20150135201250

And it works great. I was dominating yesterday with that spec. I even beat ret pallys in duels

Looking at your current spec I'm not sure why you would pass up Honor Among Thieves in a sub dagger build without Relentless Strikes or ruthlessness--is Blood Spatter and Vigor that much more appealing than HAT? As it stands this build has really poor combo point generation. Also I don't understand dumping points into Initiative, Imp Ambush and Waylay (terrible talent imo) and not putting one more point into Shadow Dance, the synergy with this seems well worth the one point; and if nothing else you can use it to blind -> sap without having your vanish fail.

Seriously though, Relentless Strikes is still really good and not having it really gimps your stun to burst combos regardless of your spec.

Believe it or not, having expose armor cost 20 energy instead of 25 makes a big difference.

^one point for 5 energy off expose? Relentless Strikes accomplishes essentially the same thing and works for every finisher you have.

[Vapor]

Looking at your current spec I'm not sure why you would pass up Honor Among Thieves in a sub dagger build without Relentless Strikes or ruthlessness--is Blood Spatter and Vigor that much more appealing than HAT? As it stands this build has really poor combo point generation. Also I don't understand dumping points into Initiative, Imp Ambush and Waylay (terrible talent imo) and not putting one more point into Shadow Dance, the synergy with this seems well worth the one point; and if nothing else you can use it to blind -> sap without having your vanish fail.

Seriously though, Relentless Strikes is still really good and not having it really gimps your stun to burst combos regardless of your spec.
^one point for 5 energy off expose? Relentless Strikes accomplishes essentially the same thing and works for every finisher you have.

I tried shadowdance first....it sucked....doesn't change to a stealth bar or its own bar and I was not going to rebind all my stealth abilities just to use it...i tried macros, but none worked well enough for me to keep it, so i respec'd and got vigor...120 energy with 45 ambush/backstabs is amazing.

I played a lot yesterday and my combo point generation was just fine, so was my burst, in fact, my burst was ridiculous....I was able to keep warriors, druids and pretty much everyone except mages and pallys who bubbled locked down enough to do 12k damage before they could heal or damage me. I mostly do 2s arena and honor among thieves doesn't seem that helpful for that. My ruptures were ticking for over 320 and I feel that makes bloodsplatter worth it. I just honestly don't think relentless strikes is worth it for 5 talents...I agree it is a very good talent, but there is just so much else that I feel is better. Initiative helps a lot with combo point generation, which u said my build lacks. With IMP ambush my ambush has a 90% crit chance, meaning waylay will proc almost every time, and a waylay sets up a backstab into a 5 pt kidney before they can do anything....then 3 more backstabs...As for the expose armor...having it at 20 energy means you can pretty much get it off regardless...I feel like I have been talking too much...w/e

[Gougeripper]

With the glyph you can get 3 min preperation, which could matter in arena.

Wronts its been remade, to remove CD on Kick, Gouge, Dismantle and some other things as far as I can recall. You CANT get Preparation down to 3 minutes anymore, due to the OP