Protection paladin FAQ

[Draco cracona]

40 AP>43 spellpower imo, as the extra HotR damage from the AP will beat the 3 spellpower I think. Wowhead's still got it listed as Str, but wouldn't surprise me if they nerfed it as 20 str might end up as better than the wrath 65 ap ench due to BV.

Having just checked though, potency is still 20 Str.

[Advent]

Sorry I wasn't clear, but I meant the intended level 80 enchants. The "Potency" enchant now is 20 strength, but the higher level one doesn't increase strength, it increases AP only.

[Deleted]

Sorry I wasn't clear, but I meant the intended level 80 enchants. The "Potency" enchant now is 20 strength, but the higher level one doesn't increase strength, it increases AP only.

That explains it :P Well, it the level 80 version gives only AP then I will probably myself still choose Potency (+20 str)...Higher block value helps you last longer, and it allows you to hit harder with your shield. Then again higher AP would give HotR some more damage. We'll see if there comes any better enchants in the future.

[Draco cracona]

You'll have 20 str v 65 AP; that's 50 AP + 10 BV v 65 AP; so 15 AP v 12.5 BV. Can't really tell yet which is better for threat, but we won't be able to tell that until 80 tbh.

[Wiseguy]

Very decent thread, but as i can see you are all totaly focused on threat generation..

Seeing that i can easly without much hassle pound out 2.5k tps when tanking a boss, and the dps below me is roamin around in 1200ish, i realy dont see the point in it getting all the attention you guys give it

What id recommend, instead of putting on potency on weapon, why not use mongoose? the agi gives alot of dodge, and the 3% haste isnt a bad thing. Also instead of gemming and enchanting for more threat generation, i suggest to fall in love with avoidance stats and hp..

Also when im raiding as a prot paladin i always pick up Reconing, i love it and it is realy awsome when tanking mulitple mobs like hyjal trash or alot of the black temple trash pulls.. It makes for stacking vengence on mulitple targetes very easy. As it comes for bosstanking, ive only maintanked the first 5 bosses in bt and dont got all the experience versus the realy endbosses, but what i keep reading about parrybombs and all that being a tank killer and stay away from reconing unless your expertise capped.
Imo its bullshit.. the % of you getting more than 1 extra hit is highly unlikly and there is only a very select few bosses where you can take high enough damage, that an extra hit or two can kill you. The benefits of reconing is very good, and with a almost 100% uptime during trash and fairly much vs bosses it realy helps on keeping threat generation through the roof..

atleast thats my opinion of it..

-Wizeguy of Terenas EU

[Draco cracona]

Very decent thread, but as i can see you are all totaly focused on threat generation..

Seeing that i can easly without much hassle pound out 2.5k tps when tanking a boss, and the dps below me is roamin around in 1200ish, i realy dont see the point in it getting all the attention you guys give it

What id recommend, instead of putting on potency on weapon, why not use mongoose? the agi gives alot of dodge, and the 3% haste isnt a bad thing. Also instead of gemming and enchanting for more threat generation, i suggest to fall in love with avoidance stats and hp..

Also when im raiding as a prot paladin i always pick up Reconing, i love it and it is realy awsome when tanking mulitple mobs like hyjal trash or alot of the black temple trash pulls.. It makes for stacking vengence on mulitple targetes very easy. As it comes for bosstanking, ive only maintanked the first 5 bosses in bt and dont got all the experience versus the realy endbosses, but what i keep reading about parrybombs and all that being a tank killer and stay away from reconing unless your expertise capped.
Imo its bullshit.. the % of you getting more than 1 extra hit is highly unlikly and there is only a very select few bosses where you can take high enough damage, that an extra hit or two can kill you. The benefits of reconing is very good, and with a almost 100% uptime during trash and fairly much vs bosses it realy helps on keeping threat generation through the roof..

atleast thats my opinion of it..

-Wizeguy of Terenas EU

Threat's a nonissue atm, mongoose is a good avoidance ench, signifigantly better than say a weap chain, but threat weap->threat ench is still the prevailing thought I guess :P On MH pulls, it doesn't matter if reckoning's letting you stack SoV on 5+mobs, most of your important [read - AoE threat before the DPS let fly] threat is from consec, in fact it practically all is. As for bosses, parry-gibbing's much less likely for tankadins but still a possibility, not something you'll notice but when you look at what reckoning gives you it's very underwhelming. We're talking about using a standard rotation (969 etc) where you're SoVing, with L70 seal twisting in gaps where SotR would be, and L75+ no GCDs free to twist. This means that you basically only gain threat from white damage from reckoning, which is still very minor for threat. You've MTed first 5 BT, I'd assume that you've therefore MTed Teron, where one parry is a tank very close to death due to his slow swing speed (well, pre-3.0). Take for example Illi's enrages, which most guilds choose to have the tank eat - yes, you've got avoidance trinkets/seeds/ironshields up but more attacks mean more parries which mean more chances to get a string of attacks hitting you. There are very specific examples, parrygibbing from reckoning is very unlikely, but the catch is that the threat it gives you is also very small.

[Deleted]

Very decent thread, but as i can see you are all totaly focused on threat generation..

Actually, completely the opposite..even in my FAQ I have recommended stamina, strength and avoidance gems, and gave the reasoning behind strength gems as increasing your shield block value. Higher block value means you'll take less damage.. And about threat generation: well, when you aren't so well-geared yet you will also have to think about that. Like f.ex. my prot paladin puts out only about 1400 tps in raids. I just simply have too poor gear to go higher.

What id recommend, instead of putting on potency on weapon, why not use mongoose? the agi gives alot of dodge, and the 3% haste isnt a bad thing. Also instead of gemming and enchanting for more threat generation, i suggest to fall in love with avoidance stats and hp..

Again, check the FAQ. I do recommend actually getting +def enchants atleast until you are uncrittable. Potency is better than mongoose for anyone who can't put out high tps yet since it increases your personal DPS much more and all our spells scale with AP. Mongoose could be a viable alternative when your threat generation is high enough without Potency.

Imo its bullshit.. the % of you getting more than 1 extra hit is highly unlikly and there is only a very select few bosses where you can take high enough damage, that an extra hit or two can kill you. The benefits of reconing is very good, and with a almost 100% uptime during trash and fairly much vs bosses it realy helps on keeping threat generation through the roof..

Many bosses do have enrage periods and atleast in those cases getting even a single extra hit on you might kill you. That's why I rather recommend against reckoning. Better safe than sorry. But sure, as I've stated here, it's up to you, reckoning has its good sides too.

[Deleted]

Blacksmithing - Extra sockets GG

4 extra gem sockets will be very useful for any tank

[sparks]

best thread in the pally section...keep it up

I am still confused on one thing..Glyphs...do you use the same ones in pve leveling as you do in tanking an instance?
I don't mean you can change but is there a difference?


now we just need the same thing for holy...pve damage and instance healing

[Deleted]

I am still confused on one thing..Glyphs...do you use the same ones in pve leveling as you do in tanking an instance?
I don't mean you can change but is there a difference?

There aren't really any good glyphs yet. The best ones (glyph of seal of corruption/vengeance) comes when Northrend opens and people level up their inscription skill. Anyway, atleast I don't bother changing glyphs, 10% more damage from judgements helps in both leveling and raiding. The other glyph, glyph of righteous vengeance, doesn't really do anything when leveling solo, but there isn't really anything worth replacing it with either.

[Advent]

My only problem with enchanting my weapon with mongoose (which I can, threat gen is very easy at this point), is the high cost of the materials. On my server, each Void Crystal is still going for about 85g each. Shards are 65g.

Idk about the rest of you, but I'm not catering to the greedy.

[divinepala]

Hello,

A thing i still don't really understand is why reckoning could be a risc to spec.
The tooltip reads that you get a chance for an extra weaponswing. Why could this be potentionally dangerous that a boss would hit you twice when he parries the attack?
I don't understand that part.
Could you elaborate on that?

Like in the post a few above Draco Dracons sais:
Take for example Illi's enrages, which most guilds choose to have the tank eat - yes, you've got avoidance trinkets/seeds/ironshields up but more attacks mean more parries which mean more chances to get a string of attacks hitting you.
How does that work? why when a poss parries etc is it dangerous for the tank... he just parries right? nothing more?

Thnx

[Deleted]

How does that work? why when a poss parries etc is it dangerous for the tank... he just parries right? nothing more?

When a boss parries your attack his/her swing timer is reseted and gets to attack you back instantly.

[Sokyl]

I dont really ever see the need to post on here, but im just gonna say one thing on reckoning.

When a boss parries your attack his/her swing timer is reseted and gets to attack you back instantly. GayGirlie

If you are a tank you know this, yes it can lead to parry gibs.. but one thing that has never been mentioned, is that reckoning altho having a small duration is a buff, and like any other buff can be removed, for myself gibbing has never really been a problem.. almost non existent in 3.0 now, with the changes. I have a small idea of where that buff myself will appear and can be ready to click it off, and I dont see what other people see in our tree that would outweigh reckoning 'used properly' as the bottom of our tree is lackluster compared to the top.

And as for

We're talking about using a standard rotation (969 etc) where you're SoVing, with L70 seal twisting in gaps where SotR would be, and L75+ no GCDs free to twist. This means that you basically only gain threat from white damage from reckoning, which is still very minor for threat. Draco cracona

Yes, the upgrade in threat will be minimal but the increase in dps cant be ignored, essentially 2x what ever youd be doin without it up (yes both hits are not gonna necessarily hit for the same amount im generalizing). And like the person you shot down with this comment was mentioning, you can stack SoC (or ally version) Much, much faster, 2 swings = 4 stacks.

This is not intended to shoot down anyone who hasn't taken reckoning or is against it, merely my view on things.

[Draco cracona]

It doesn't matter that you stack soc/soc twice as fast, as you don't get time to twist anyway is what I'm saying - not enying that, but denying the use of it. yeah, it doubles your white DPS, which is very minor overall in either tankadin TPS or DPS, and why would you spec something for DPS in a tank spec? Options are basically reckoning or kings, even with a /cancelaura reckoning macro I'm still not keen on that drop, especially for 10 mans/ 25 mans, it would depend on your raid composition but more flexibility is better imo.

[Sokyl]

Yay, a response finaly.

It doesn't matter that you stack soc/soc twice as fast. Draco cracona

You are probably thinking of one target, tab targeting in large groups of people you can stack up SoC much faster. SoC is a DoT, not a hit proc. Therefore it remains until the DoT ticks down, think of it as a lesser consecrate used right. As for

Options are basically reckoning or kings, even with a /cancelaura reckoning macro. Draco cracona

I find as tanks we getta be the least lazy, in my opinion you shouldn't need to macro this to work with it, kings im sorry but its useless as it's 5 points to have what 1 point used to give us, leave it for holy.

Oh i forgot to add this earlier,

yeah, it doubles your white DPS, which is very minor overall in either tankadin TPS or DPS, and why would you spec something for DPS in a tank spec? Draco cracona

Ok.. why would you spec for threat when its ridiculously easy to hold, speccing for threat is quite unnecessary, where as contributing to your dps will only kill the boss you are fighting that much quicker. And on the white dps... Fully raid buffed using my S2 sword (Still lol at that) I hit fairly hard with my white hits, so im not sure what the problem is for you.

[Draco cracona]

Not every Healadin will get BoK, they do have to drop deeper ret talents for it (Sanctified seals), the only spec who can get kings without dropping other important talents is ret. Yes, I was talking about single target, in AoE tanking you will gain threat from reckoning, however I'm not convinced that it'll have much effect, as you'll have aggro hungry AoE DPS letting fly before you've got SoC/SoV stacked up on all your targets, the difference between SoV/SoC and consec is that you'll have consec down from the start on all targets, and you won't have a full SoC/SoV stack on all of them fast enough even with reckoning imo. TBH it's a new angle on reckoning for me, but I'm not sure you'll get the time for more than the 3 targets you'd have full stacks on anyway.

Tbh with the amount of temporary buffs (hots/libram/procs) flying around in a raid, you'll not always know exactly where reckoning is, you don't need to macro it but IMO it would help by removing it faster if things go wrong. BoK you say to leave to the healadins, when they lose more than us to get it?

DPS of tanks is a minor consideration, and not worth dropping the flexibility you bring to raids/groups as it means that healadins don't need to drop sanctified seals to get BoK on the DPS. Yeah, the boss dies faster, but very marginally so for the loss of flexibility imo, and speccing for threat might mean that you end up with a tank weapon rather than a threat weapon. and to say that in a raid you'd only have white dam and so reckoning doubles your DPS is just wrong, if you're not tanking you're probably better off offhealing, if you're tanking then you'll have all the mana you could want.

Oh, and my apologies for not replying instantly as you seemed to expect, I'm not always about.

[Sokyl]

Its not that you have to reply right away, its just nice to respond to people responding to this. .

KK to start tearing down again tho.... without quotes if possible.. hmm.. lets see..

K lets start with 'Healadins', have you ever heard of the spirit priest? if you dont know the term I'm not gonna explain it other then one person takes a drop in "potential" for the better of everyone else. Kings is that buff for holy, raid wise, have one healadin with it because they lose far less then us having to take it. So lets have a new name for these people the "Kings Pallies".

Secondly, you say you are talking about single target tanking. All fine and dandy, except for the fact the person you responded to was talking about the uses of reckoning on larger pulls and trash. As for aggro hungry dps letting fly.. thats why you drop a consecrate first... if they still pull agro, either tell em to wait or improve your gear. The use of Soc/SoV comes in raids and heroics say like Shattered Halls or a better example Hyjal. I take the majority if not the whole wave of undead. Consecrate, followed by holy shield (they reach me after gcd fades after using shield, holy wrath (awesome btw! ), followed by maybe an exorcism or w/e (not really necessary). At this point you have a horde of undead pissed at you.. rather then focus on one target, help your consecrate along (which you've kept up with holy shield), and tab-target your way around making a mess of the undead with SoC/SoV dots. Fun, Fun times with reckoning, which by the way is almost constantly up in that mess.

Thirdly, your part on buffs. Do me a favor and in your next raid get buffed up and pop holy shield, then do it again and watch were it appears on your buffs. If its the same spot to roughly the same spot, spec reckoning and learn how to right-click. Stationary buffs will clog that bar up, aka flasks, fort buff , etc... but you'll find the proc buffs tend to stay in the same area that they proc'd in last time they were up.

Now dps of tanks... like i mentioned, well geared protadin wise.. threat should not be a problem (if it is waste a Hand of Salvation i dunno?) the one place I believe you are coming for on this, is that you use a low dps spell dmg weapon. Understandable, to each his own personally i find the New Hammer of Righteous to be, far better with a Higher Dps Slow One hander, like the s2 sword I use. As for dang, I said I wouldnt quote but this part.

and to say that in a raid you'd only have white dam and so reckoning doubles your DPS is just wrong, if you're not tanking you're probably better off offhealing, if you're tanking then you'll have all the mana you could want. Draco cracona

Well essentially what I mean by this is that, for example non-reckoning you hit with SoC/SoV lets say 500 white, alright thats all fine and dandy.. but if you didn't notice SoC is a DoT sooo.. as dots go it has to tick. so lets see first tick after 3 sec lets say round 40 dmg. Like i said all good and fine, its a DoT (and I love it)

Now I come Along... Reckoning procd, SoC/SoV lets say I Hit for the same amount 500 White alright another hit at same time lets say its less 480 maybe? Ok now with one hit i have 980 damage and after 3 sec about 80 dmg from my Dot (as its stacked twice).

So you did 540 dmg and I did 1060 dmg, seems like my dps is a slight bit higher in that (2.6 my wep speed) window, also as an added bonus as I judge, I will again do increased damage over you due to the affect over SoC/SoV which is 10% extra damage for each application on your target. If your gonna say im flawed please give me proof.

Two last thing as I believe I've covered all my bases, a very usefull tip for aoe Tanking with this method, have enemy health bars showing on your UI (Ctrl + V) and target those with the lowest Health after tab targeting as they are getting focused on the most. Secondly for GayGirlie what is your experience with our Hammer of Righteous stacking our SoC/SoV dot? I've been trying to test it myself.. it seems as if it procs the dot on offtargets when used... maybe a melee range thing? Have not tested reckoning plus hammer either yet.. gonna try that soon.. would be too nice tho reckoning plus Hammer for 2 Stacks of the dot on 3 seperate targets.

[Draco cracona]

Right, to start to reply to this Note that IMO 1 day delay due to work etc isn't meaning there'll be no reply.

I don't feel that we ARE losing much to take BoK though, healadins lose 3% crit, we lose something that barely increases single target threat and only increases AoE threat on what, packs of 4-6 mobs [you've got no time to build up stacks on more than an additional three before the DPS let it fly]? I've been saying that, for AoE packs, the important threat is the AoE threat, which is mainly consec, and in MH you are not going to be able to tab target between, for example, six aboms and six ghouls, whilst keeping a full stack on all twelve effectively, even with reckoning, as it'd take 3 swings instead of 5 for a full stack, assuming not unreasonably that reckoning's up 100% of the time, so that's 7.8s/mob assuming S2 sword if you apply all five stacks at once, which is probably not a good idea, but to even keep it up you'd need 14.6s to hit each once, then you have knockdowns/misses/avoidances [ignoring HotR, but that's hard to control the secondary targets it hits]. Thus it won't work on a typical MH pull as an AoE threat ability, as it's not affecting all the mobs.

Learn how to right click? You mind not starting with insults here? Raid buffs such as fort/flasks/blessings/HS are going to stay static ofc, but there's a lot of hots/procs/similar on during a fight, it's far faster to just have a /cancelaura macro, especially as these are off the GCD if that's all they contain, but if you click it or use a macro it doesn't affect if you should spec reckoning or not.

I personally use a tank weap, my cleaver of the unforgiving from ZJ, higher stam and avoidance than S2, although slightly lower threat, ATM threat's no issue but I'm anticipating it being an issue in wrath if we go for tank weaps rather than melee DPS weaps.

Non-reckoning you hit for 500 white, SoV full stack (will be up fast) ticks for 200, judge for ~700, hammer for ~800, consec for ~200/tick, so your white dam is doubled but overall dam isn't. HotR does proc seals on all 3 targets though, don't expect it to eat up reckoning charges or somehow cause double application of SoV via reckoning though.

[EndGame]

Personally... I will not be getting reckoning. I see reckoning as a prot leveling talent.

my build at 80 is below (assuming no big changes):

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...10251533312301

Pursuit since paladins lack any kind of charge/intercept. If needed sub pursuit for judgement of just.

Personally I think our talent tree is still bloated since we have so many 5/5 talents. I wish a few of those would be dropped to 3/3.