Ghostcrawler asked for change, all I have is a dollar.

[Finangus]

Let me get this straight. A Paladin is using an ability that all raid enemies will be immune to, COMPLETELY IMMUNE, and the one tiny saving grace he might have, the ability to do something any Warrior with a shield can do, albeit on a shorter cooldown... and it's OP.

First off, the way you worded that spell it reads that it will reflect ANY attack. Clearly, Spell Reflect only reflects spells. OP 1, Balanced 0

Second, in order to use said Spell Reflect in PvP, a warrior first has to thrown on a shield and 1 Hander, thus eating 1 GCD. He then has to switch to Defensive stance, thus eating another GCD and blowing most of his rage. And now that he's turtled up to reflect 1 whole spell, his offensive ability has been reduced to nothing. Meanwhile, a Ret Pally suffers no drawbacks in order to reflect, as you put it, the next attack directed at him. OP 2, Balanced 0

[Fortoss]

That's why giving Crusader Strike the extra 5% damage under the effects of HoJ(while damage changed to 105%, noticed changed not nerfed) will give it the flavor it needs without being OP.

[ForDarkspear]

Exactly.

Even if it was just spells, that would be OP on a MONSTROUS level.

And the new reckoning he designed would be retarded Overpowered. Considering a normal rotation is enough to zerg down most non healing classes, adding even MORE burst would be a terrible idea. You might as well make a new paladin talent for an I.W.I.N. button.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

Exactly.

Even if it was just spells, that would be OP on a MONSTROUS level.

And the new reckoning he designed would be retarded Overpowered. Considering a normal rotation is enough to zerg down most non healing classes, adding even MORE burst would be a terrible idea. You might as well make a new paladin talent for an I.W.I.N. button.

With Reckoning as I have designed it, the Paladin attempting to put Reckoning into play suffers from several crippling drawbacks, sure in BGs that might absolutely dominate because people aren't paying attention, but there are so many ways to dominate a PuG BG without putting yourself at risk that honestly, is balancing around it neccessary?

A damage reflect (I -did- originally intend for it to reflect melee attacks as well) on a 6 second CD/Duration with 1 charge, combined with consistent stuns from SoJ is quite a monster to deal with, that's the intent, but while playing this way the Paladin would be putting aside something in the region of 25-30% of his damage.

Yes, in our current fashion, Ret Paladins can burst down any non-healer in 1 or 2 cycles through our ability lineup, if they sit there and do nothing. Any healer can heal through it with the utmost ease, every single class has escape maneuvers to prevent them from taking the full force of a rampaging melee character to the face. The reason exorcism was removed from PvP, is NOT because it did too much damage at once, it was because the range made it harder to counter, when utilized by a class that is balanced around being easy to kite, like almost all melee tend to be.

Adding Reckoning to this makes us more volatile, as I said, if your team doesn't stop the Paladin from sitting still and chaneling for 6 seconds, then can't keep away from the Paladin for 10 seconds, then yes, you have a ton of burst headed your way, will it instantly kill anyone? Obviously not, the damage can't be applied that quickly due to the new way Divine Storm works, would it kill someone if they were totally unassisted by a healer? Yes. Would they be dead if the Paladin didn't have Reckoning? Still yes. Ret smashes teams without healers, but so does Fury, and ANY rogue build, that's the nature of melee DPS. Now Paladins can apply pressure in the form of better burst damage, but pay a much higher price for it (72% of total mana, 6 seconds of complete vulnerability).

Again, listen to the original post and THINK about the bigger picture before you blindly dismiss something. If all you look at is Killing Spree, an ability that teleports you behind your target to attack with both weapons instantly, once every HALF SECOND for 5 attacks, you're getting more damage, more quickly, than with Reckoning, and yet teams survive even when two combat rogues blow the ability at the same time. The rogue is even still free to fire off his full complement of stunlocking and burst damage AFTER he uses Killing Spree. The Paladin with Reckoning cannot do that, his 28% mana pool begs to be drained, and totally prevents him from doing it again until he can regen 44% of his pool.

These abilities actually do LESS DPS than the way they work on Live, Reckoning shifts 100% damage to 50% of the time, and then spends the other 50% of their time channeling and vulnerable, rather than spreading the damage out evenly. I think that's a fair trade.

Yes, taking exorcism away from Prot is a loss in threat, trying to stop to cast a healing spell for the threat would be silly. Totally agreed. Prot is ahead of the other classes in threat, at current, the price would be ~533 TPS, that seems to me to be a reasonable loss in TPS, but that is something I need to look at.

[Ghul]

i dont really like your ideas because they are changing the playstyle way too hard and it would mostly feel like some kind of a new class than simply an improvement in the rotationdepartment. but the actual playstile is the thing i like the most on my retpaladin and i guess i would consider going back to my rogue after those changes 8>, simply because i dont like this sort of playste. it would somehow feel like youre a caster who has to stand in meleerange...

[Felblood]

I like my paladin but it is one of the blandest spec/class choices around.. Something needs to be done! And these ideas are a start..

[DaGhostDS]

i like some bit but overall it would make it even more burst

Exorcism: This ability has been reworked, instead of causing instant holy damage, it converts your next flash of light or holy light into a damage spell for 10 seconds, Flash of Light will cause holy damage equivalent to 75% of the heal amount, and Holy Light will cause holy damage equivalent to 40% of the heal amount.

dont leave that anywhere near a 23k holylight spammer pala.. ouch

/now a pile of burning bones

[PalliesThrowStuff]

i like some bit but overall it would make it even more burstdont leave that anywhere near a 23k holylight spammer pala.. ouch

/now a pile of burning bones

Yeah, I kept toying with the numbers, couldn't find a solid balance. Take the percentage too low, and it's not worthwhile for Ret to ever waste even the AoW proc, but leave it too high and Holy Paladins fry people, albeit once every 15 seconds, it's still more burst than Holy Paladins need... although I think the latest round of PvP nerfs to Holy went a little too far.

[onaqui]

Aoe dmg from flash of light is the only thing i see as incredibly imba in this case. As i heal for 4-6k with flash of light, that would mean i could throw 2 heals to myself with a pack of 10k mobs around me and they would all die?

But it would be cool to see those changes, but imagine the QQ from healers getting stunlocked by a rogue/ret and in the meantime a retpaladin unleashes 10 attacks within 4s on you, just blowing your hp away

[xdwbx]

Reckoning has the potential to be half decent for threat generation IF people bothered to seal twist. Problem of course is seal twisting wastes your other GCDs that could be used for avoidance spells (Holy Shield) AOE Spells (HotR, Consecration) or single target spells (SotR, AS, Exorcism) And since reckoning is so random with its procs it will likely pop up halfway thru your rotation, making it kinda retarded for threat generation anyways cause you cant take use of it.
Personally I would take it until its fixed somehow to say somehow up your shield block value or something useful that actually can realisticly increase your threat.

Agreed. Any prot paladin worth their salt won't take reckoning. A small amount of extra threat is not worth getting gibbed by the boss.

[Kuthumii]

GC didn't ask for Ret to be divided into three styles of play. He simple wants to make it so we have a rotation that is fun and isn't face rolling abilities as they come of CD. No other DPS class has three styles of play for one spec. Why should Ret? While I like some of your ideas for the most part the entire idea over complicates the spec, something that isn't needed nor welcome.

He didn't ask you to rename a Protection ability because you dislike the naming scheme. That change has entirely nothing to do with Retribution.
Your Exo change would mean some great damage for Holy paladins.
"Stem of Tide" while I love the name, the talent itself is bland and would really only affect trash; again, has nothing to do with Retribution.
Sacrificial Wrath would again give Holy paladin's some great damage.
Why did you feel the need to change all of the Seals?

Most of your ideas are far from balanced and most of it has nothing to do with Retribution. Some of the ideas that do affect Retribution were interesting but not balanced and for the most part are over complicated.

You are advocating a full rework of the Paladin class; that is not what GC asked for.

[grymgroeth]

Honestly, the Exorcism idea isn't all bad, just not well thought out. Leave Exorcism exactly as it is now and add a talent to Ret that mirrors SA for Prot that changes all healing effects except JoL and LoH to damage effects for 10/20/30 or 15/30 seconds on a 2 minute cooldown. It's now unattractive to healers to get the effect and it doesn't nerf tank and healer utility for Exorcism or completely OP paladins in arena. The spell reflect on CS is simply OP unfortunately, though adding a 1 pt talent to give sacred shield 50% reflection potential might not be too bad. Moving retribution from prot to ret is all good, prot is far too bloated and it's not a reliable threat ability.

[Solidity]

Seal of Command - turned into a spammable instant attack that deals low damage (probably 30% wep dmg as holy dmg, might even be unavoidable) Apply some sort of a debuff.
Exorcism - cooldown reduced, damage reduced, damage increased depending on how many SoC debuffs you have on the target. Probably has DoT effect similar to immolation or flame shock.

Crusader Strike - add that spell breaker effect to it, works if the target was affected by Exo dot OR SoC debuffs.

Divine Storm - no idea whatsoever....

*1 minute thinking and head is about to explode*

PS

Oh DAMN, i used my trollish account -.-
Kill me please.

[criticize]

Yes to seal of command, far to boring needs to be a clickable, perhaps the debuff could be a real snare.

Commanding Strike (baseline) - instantly deals 30% weapon damage as holy damage, and snares the target. 10 second cooldown.

(insert new 11pt talent)

Exorcism - Attempt to surface the inner demons of a target, dealing damage over 10 seconds. If allowed to run the full 10 seconds the targets inner demons present themselves, for 3 seconds, allowing undead/demon only abilities to be used on the target. 15 sec cooldown. 30 yrd range.

I've seen an idea of vengeance / divine storm synergy and like it. So here's a system. probably sucks.

crusader strike - Strikes target for 110% weapon damage, and adds adds a stack of vengeance.

Divine storm - lowered initial damage to 60% weapon damage. Damage increased by 25% per stack of vengeance, removes all stacks.
0-60%, 1-85%, 2-110%, 3-135%

Seal of blood/martyr - auto crit when a target is stunned or incapacitated. For on demand burst, but risky.

Divine purpose - Also increases movement speed by 40% while under the effects of hand of freedom.

Judgement of Justice - Interrupts the targets current action. Movement speed removed.

All Judgements - Debuff the target with cannot flee and now instantly restore 10% base mana.

Judgements of the wise - increases the amount of mana restored by judgements by 5-10-15% (back to 25 for ret) and causes replenishment buff.

[riflemancho]

criticize...Thats like a paladin will one-shot most classes when stuned wtf? Its like hunter to have explosive shot 6 times till cd is ready...lol or a mage can cast a free frostbolt during another one lolol ???

[stubot]

I actually just posted this change idea I had on the official forums,


http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...89977&sid=1#13

really only affects DS and CS but i think it'd be kinda fun and would require a little bit of skill to maintain

[Raledon]

2 notes:
The talent stem of the tide you suggested is not worth taking in many cases, since it's 2 talents that give 10% passive Attack speed reduction (0.5*0.2). instead, put in under the same talent as judment of the just- your judgment slow your openents attack speed by 20%, and your consecration has a chance to slow your oponents attack speed by 20%. Every tick has 50% chance to proc a 1sec slow effect (assuming it will work as I expect it to). This eliminate the problem of where the mobs stand when you start your conc, as well as make the talent much more apealing.

Reckoning, Divine storm: your burst is way too big, as it was earlier. your so called pitfalls arent in a good shape, since paladin has hand of freedom, making him nigh immune to snares. If he has a partner with any kind of cc, than he will not have a problem reaching his enemies, assuming they are not starting to run away the moment he starts casting (assuming they do not interrupt him).
The high mana cost is not an issue as well, since 72% are just a fraction of his mana- I can easly see a retardin/priest charging their enemies and zerging them in 3sec with your burst.
A way to improve: Divine storm will now attack each enemy in melee range for 30% of your weapon damage as holy each second for 4 seconds, up to a total of 4 hits per second. This will proc your seal as well. Meanwhile your autoattack is disabled.
This (with propper balancing, I just threw numbers) will lead to a more stable, less bursty damage dealing.

Reckoning: back at prot tree. Will now cause the following effect: while under the effect of reckoning, your melee attacks cause holy damage, and each of your attacks additional damage equal to one tick of your current SOV/SOC dots on the target (might need propper wording). This will turn reckoning back to a good threat talent, since not only we hit for holy damage (1.9 times aggro, ignores armor), but it will actually work propperly with seal.

[mysteryguy202]

Agreed. Any prot paladin worth their salt won't take reckoning. A small amount of extra threat is not worth getting gibbed by the boss.

If you take reckoning, I doubt you could get down to Crusade in the Ret tree, which will produce more threat with no drawbacks.

to the OP: You have a lot of great ideas... and some not so great, but as stated before, you are advocating a complete and total rework of the paladin class as a whole, not just ret. That isn't what GC wanted... we need to fix ret with less changes overall, and little or no changes to Prot/Holy.

The new Reckoning Ability: This suggestion has almost 0 use in most settings... one tap from anything will take away part of the channeling, and waste a bunch of mana and damage. Reckoning can't be moved to the ret tree without severely upping dps, which I doubt Blizz will allowed, at least in its current form. If it were to be reworked, it should stay prot and involve some sort of parry proc, such as when X happens, the paladin gains Y% increased chance to parry. Lasts 4 parries or 15 seconds. It would then be defensive.

It sounds to me like GC really wants something similar to the Overpower Mechanic for warriors, aka when X happens, Ability Y becomes available. I can throw a quick idea out there:

New talent: Eye of the Storm: When your Divine Storm crits, your Hammer of Wrath becomes available. Lasts 3 seconds.

This is a reactive proc, requires very few changes, and will force people to watch a bit more carefully. Now, this can be changed to proc off different spells, have a % chance to proc of certain or all spells, dodges... etc. This is by NO stretch a great idea, but I think it is more along the lines of what GC is trying for... breaking up that whack-a-mole priority of the same 5 spells.

[Niroshi]

New Talent: Sacrificial Wrath - Effective healing you cause on yourself with Flash of Light deals 50/100% holy damage to all enemies within 10 yards.

This is something you will likely 'never' see in WoW, just imagine how hard we would have to be nerfed if that was an actual talent? Holy would be nice DPS given the extremely quick cast time of FoL, PvP would become even more messed up, etc. Add into that Aura Mastery and anyone touching a Holy Paladin would just be in for a serious beating.

Some of the ideas listed in this thread seem a bit 'out there', but not really bad. They just need to be really toned down a bit, like the quoted idea.

[Deleted]

Change? Ret is quite fine as it is atm. Just reverse the retarded nerfs to Fanaticism and Righteous Vengeance and make T8 look like proper plate instead of a gay wedding dress.

At least RV should be made stacking so that a new proc won't remove the old dot, but instead places a new one.

After these few little changes shoot all devs to the head so they won't get to tamper with us or our tier gear looks with their butterfingers.