Feral Druids - the Bear guide

[sethers656]

ok all sounds good. So just stick with my gems, and fix me enchants as Stam stacking is only worth it for progression. That's what I thought at first, I just see so many tanks stacking stam now, was just wondering. But i would much rather trust you guys here than random people on my server. So thank you for all your help and al;l the help I got from this thread.

[getefix]

ok all sounds good. So just stick with my gems, and fix me enchants as Stam stacking is only worth it for progression. That's what I thought at first, I just see so many tanks stacking stam now, was just wondering. But i would much rather trust you guys here than random people on my server. So thank you for all your help and al;l the help I got from this thread.

Tanks stack stam for 2 reasons: They want to show off how much health they can get (and think it makes them a better tank) or they're progressing and they're learning a fight. If there's a tank with 50k unbuffed health and he's never seen ToGC then he's doing it wrong. There's no reason for it. It's like loading yourself up with fire resist gear when you don't tank fights that need it.

As far as cooldowns go: You need to know what kind of damage you're going to see. You don't need to know the numbers, you just need to remember things like "last time I got owned by Meteor Fists so I better pop something this time". DBM or DXE will tell you when a special ability that's going to hurt is coming up. Basically rotate Barkskin and dodge trinkets when they're up (unless you have a reason to save them). Save SI and FR for a time when your health isn't full and you're in an "uh-oh" phase (Icehowl's enrage, Gormok with 4+ bleeds, Twins with a healer down, etc). These are the sort of things that come with practice. You're a fresh bear so you'll get a feel for it soon enough.

[Glutamine]

Good post, I'm a feral tanking druid myself on the Eldre'thalas server. I used to use a lot of agility gems in my gear and I was happy with my armor and dodge but people look down on lower HP. To make myself look more useful I changed a lot of my gems to stamina and surprisingly my armor and dodge are still ok. Raid buffed I am just under 47k HP. My only problem is finding higher end raids seeing how getting into a decent guild is hard now adays. Pugging is near impossible with the 10/25 toc encounters.

[Auroro]

I want to know about the talent tree that i was thinking about and would it work.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxGGscrzceRccuVkbE0z

[arel00]

I want to know about the talent tree that i was thinking about and would it work.

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZxGGscrzceRccuVkbE0z

It looks like a standard build without MSS. The big difference, if I'm not mistaken, is the choice of taking KotJ over Imp.Mangle. I will also go a step forward and assume you're considering this with regards to the Tier 10 Bear bonus, but I could be very well mistaken.

If that's the case, it could be nice to experiment. If that is not the case, and it's merely a personal choice, I'd warn you that while it's better for snap aggro, you'll lose a substantial amount of threat over time.

Apart from that, I don't see the point of maxing out Furor. Those two points could be better off spend elsewhere. Quick examples are Feral Aggression (which is a 1% mitigation per point, test-in-hand), or Primal Tenacity (read: Anub'arak 25 heroic). The first better than the second, obviously.

It comes down to what your TPS is. If you need more aggro, keep Imp.Mangle or go for MSS. If you don't and you just need snap aggro, I'd suggest to keep Imp.Mangle and blow Berserk when you pull. If it's experimenting in prevision of the T10 bonus regarding Enrage, it could be worth a try. Still, better 2/5 FA than 5/5 Furor.

[Sunshine]

Quick examples are Feral Aggression (which is a 1% mitigation per point, test-in-hand), or Primal Tenacity (read: Anub'arak 25 heroic).

I think Primal Tenacity doesn't affect damage taken while stunned in bear, by the description in the tooltip. I could be wrong... have there been tests?

Another option to consider is Brutal Impact, useful in Jaraxxus (if you're MT) or Faction Champs.

[sethers656]

Personally, I dont like Imp. Mangle, id rather get full points in MSS and have 3/5 in furor. There is really no point to 5/5 furor. KotJ as Arel said would only be worth it if you are talking T10 set bonus. KotJ is pretty lackluster with the T10, as you shouldnt realy be lowering your armor as your tanking unless you really need the rage.

[arel00]

I think Primal Tenacity doesn't affect damage taken while stunned in bear, by the description in the tooltip. I could be wrong... have there been tests?

Another option to consider is Brutal Impact, useful in Jaraxxus (if you're MT) or Faction Champs.

Sorry, you're right. It used to, but it has been changed. I haven't looked at it in awhile, since I don't use it myself.

[Auroro]

I ask Blizzard's favorite asshole, Ghostcrawler, about the problem with the Agi -> AP and no AP from Str for Feral Bear in Cataclysm. His answer gave me nothing to worry about. I wanted to give it to this Bear Guild so that we can tell those cubs that want to be a good Feral Tank, to roll for those Str rings, necklace, and cloak against the other tank.

Ghostcrawler:We talked about druids in bear form also getting AP from strength. Strength won't appear on leather and no piece should have Str and Agi together, so it's not like they would really double dip. That lets us still have tanking necks, rings and cloaks with strength on them that are attractive to all 4 tanking classes.

Almost all the items in the game are going to have to change. In many cases this is just a sweeping pass we can make on all gear, such as replacing the Agi + AP on leather with just Agi. So don't worry too much about what happens with old gear and talents mixed with the new stat system. The gear and talents in many cases must change.

[arel00]

I ask Blizzard's favorite asshole, Ghostcrawler, about the problem with the Agi -> AP and no AP from Str for Feral Bear in Cataclysm. His answer gave me nothing to worry about. I wanted to give it to this Bear Guild so that we can tell those cubs that want to be a good Feral Tank, to roll for those Str rings, necklace, and cloak against the other tank.

Thank you very much. I will add a note in the main post.

[Wyn]

Thought i would post in this thread rather than making a new topic:

I have been thinking about switching up my tanking spec a little bit and was wondering what the tanking experts opinion on the matter is:


I have been tanking in this spec : http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...umi2,wOF,10747

I havent had very many, if any major, threat issues. There is a feral dps that will be in raid 100% of the time, so ILotP was something I wanted to change.

I have also been thinking about the upcoming set bonus for bears in ICC.

I came up with this spec : http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...KqvW,OwF,10747

I wanted to squeeze as much extra threat out (through imp mangle) as I could and gain some extra mitigation (through FA ;warrior tank does not have improved demo shout) in replace of nss and mss.

I also wanted to take some extra advantage on threat out of KotJ as Enrage will be a new CD for 4/4 T10 bears, which is only a matter of time to get.

What do you guys think? How many bears are going to be tweaking their talent trees when ICC hits?

[arel00]

There will be quite a few druids doing that.

As for the build itself, I ask for forgiveness if I don't repost the whole thing here. If you would just look in the previous page of this thread, I was discussing a similar build with another guy. I was commenting on his link, but it should be understandable nonetheless, even if you went along different lines.

[Wyn]

Wow ok thanks Arel.

I have generally keep tabs on latest posts and read through what I haven't. I just must have missed that post somehow

[Auroro]

OK, my guild officer is worry about my initiate threat.

I told him that if the DPS waited for two second for me to put two Lacerate debuff on then burn the boss. Also I try to tell him to go to this website to understand the problem. He will not, he think it is not the DPS problem.

He want me to copy this guy's talent.

Aryona

Here is mine char.

Auroro

[getefix]

OK, my guild officer is worry about my initiate threat.

I told him that if the DPS waited for two second for me to put two Lacerate debuff on then burn the boss. Also I try to tell him to go to this website to understand the problem. He will not, he think it is not the DPS problem.

He want me to copy this guy's talent.

Aryona

Here is mine char.

Auroro

Your spec is actually better for initial threat. Try using Berserk on pulls and, if you are, stop bloodlusting on pulls. Give the raid about 10-15 seconds before bloodlust to get initial threat and allow DPS to get their dots and debuffs/buffs up.

Do you realize that you have 40 hit rating from gems and you're over the hit cap? Even without that hit rating you're still over the cap. That just silly.
You're also using a ring with Parry and a DPS ring. The dps ring should help with your threat. I suspect the parry ring is because it also has expertise (which you're low on). Go find yourself another item with expertise so you can replace it. Wowhead will help you.

DPS shouldn't have to wait. You're probably just not starting off right. If you're talking about gormok or jaraxxus where they start right in front of you, then you should be starting off with ~30-40 rage. Hit a mangle and a maul right away, get 1 lacerate on the boss and swipe until mangle comes off cooldown and use that, then use another lacerate and swipe until mangle comes off cooldown (mauling on every attack). The most important part is gettin at least 1 lacerate application on the buff for the increased maul damage. Don't worry about FFF or demo roar on a pull. Get your threat and worry about debuffs once you have a nice lead.

Keep in mind that on a pull pretty much every single dps will proc. All the internal CDs on them will be down and the first attack will proc all of them at once so they're going to hit hard. You have Berserk, I suggest using it.

[Sunshine]

Imp mangle vs. MSS should be roughly equivalent (or equivalent enough), so changing the spec shouldn't help. You would get to your second mangle more quickly at the beginning of the fight, but it's not that critical.

What abilities are you using at the very beginning of the fight? Lacerate's not really a huge threat ability on its own (not that it's bad, just that the initial application isn't the strongest threat move we have), so are you using FF / mangle / maul first as you run up to the boss?

Your expertise is on the low side; do you end up having trouble with dodges/parries at the beginning of the fight?

[Auroro]

Imp mangle vs. MSS should be roughly equivalent (or equivalent enough), so changing the spec shouldn't help. You would get to your second mangle more quickly at the beginning of the fight, but it's not that critical.

What abilities are you using at the very beginning of the fight? Lacerate's not really a huge threat ability on its own (not that it's bad, just that the initial application isn't the strongest threat move we have), so are you using FF / mangle / maul first as you run up to the boss?

Your expertise is on the low side; do you end up having trouble with dodges/parries at the beginning of the fight?

I know I am trying to fix that. My initial moves are FF/Maul+Lacerate/Maul+Mangle then keep Lacerate at 5 and Mangle when it is off the cooldown. Lacerate have more threat than Mangle.

Your spec is actually better for initial threat. Try using Berserk on pulls and, if you are, stop bloodlusting on pulls. Give the raid about 10-15 seconds before bloodlust to get initial threat and allow DPS to get their dots and debuffs/buffs up.

Do you realize that you have 40 hit rating from gems and you're over the hit cap? Even without that hit rating you're still over the cap. That just silly.
You're also using a ring with Parry and a DPS ring. The dps ring should help with your threat. I suspect the parry ring is because it also has expertise (which you're low on). Go find yourself another item with expertise so you can replace it. Wowhead will help you.

Why are you looking at the parry part, with that ring I get 125 stam and 30 dodge rating. Loop of the Twin Val'kyr is my goal it just have not drop yet.

I am going to cut down the hit rating by changing the gems that give hit to stam or agi. I got the leg and i know I need to do more dungeon to get three epic hit/stam gem replace.

This is my goal since my guild can't do 25 man toc heroic yet.

Belt of the Merciless Killer
Loop of the Twin Val'kyr
Pride of the Eredar/Drape of the Untamed Predator
Malfurion's Raiments of Triumph
Satrina's Impeding Scarab
Death's Verdict/Greatness
Clutch of Fortification

I have no problem with dodges/parries. I know I need 26.

[Sunshine]

I know I am trying to fix that. My initial moves are FF/Maul+Lacerate/Maul+Mangle then keep Lacerate at 5 and Mangle when it is off the cooldown. Lacerate have more threat than Mangle.

Mangle's the highest threat move we have, with the exception of maul; FF is the next highest. Lacerate has an innate threat modifier on application, but it's smaller than the threat from all of our other moves, including swipe, because of the damage those moves do. A full stack of lacerate is definitely worthwhile, but for the first few moves you may want to focus on the highest burst threat we have.

You may want to rearrange the threat moves as Mangle/Maul + FF/Maul + Lacerate/Maul (or FF running up to the boss and start with the mangle -> lacerate), although like getefix pointed out, getting a bleed (from any source) on the target is important for maul damage. If you have no other classes that are going to be putting up bleeds (dps feral, warr that uses deep wounds, etc), it might be worth moving Lacerate a little sooner than my example. Berserk right away or right after those initial moves is definitely a good option.

[aire]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I recently had an argument with my guildies regarding "Icewell Radiance", where Ive been for more avoidance, while they argued for stamina.
Now I usually don't tank myself, but stick in catform, but I thought it was clear that this would shift us more in favor of more avoidance, with our slightly higher stamina scaling and mitigation.
At the same time I'm not particularly good with math, so I cant prove my point to them either.

The thing I wanted your attention on though are these posts, linked to me by a guildie:

http://wowthinktank.blogspot.com/200...nce-bears.html
http://wowthinktank.blogspot.com/200...-part-2-4.html

As they clearly state that stamina is better, but it is only a number of statements, no real evidence (not in my book at least).

Are there anyone that could enlighten me and (preferably) set up some arguments on why more avoidance would be better? As far as Ive seen this forum have the same stance as me in this..

[Calamorn]

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I recently had an argument with my guildies regarding "Icewell Radiance", where Ive been for more avoidance, while they argued for stamina.
Now I usually don't tank myself, but stick in catform, but I thought it was clear that this would shift us more in favor of more avoidance, with our slightly higher stamina scaling and mitigation.
At the same time I'm not particularly good with math, so I cant prove my point to them either.

The thing I wanted your attention on though are these posts, linked to me by a guildie:

http://wowthinktank.blogspot.com/200...nce-bears.html
http://wowthinktank.blogspot.com/200...-part-2-4.html

As they clearly state that stamina is better, but it is only a number of statements, no real evidence (not in my book at least).

Are there anyone that could enlighten me and (preferably) set up some arguments on why more avoidance would be better? As far as Ive seen this forum have the same stance as me in this..

While avoidance isn't bad, it is normally considered worse than Stam for progressoin fights. Heres why:

Avoidance is completely dependant on RNG, having 50% dodge does not mean you will actually dodge 50% of incomming damage, nor that you will dodge every other hit. With bad RNG, and a few hits incomming at the same time, its possible to be "gibbed" and die in a very short period. Having more hp however, means you can take that damage and live. You may take a bit more damage over the course of an enounter but it's easier for your healers to heal.

two 18k hits on a 50k tank raidbuffed (btw, thats what I sit at) is still only 36/50k. two 18k hits on a 40k tank.... is a lot scarier.

Now, granted that ICC is lowering everyones avoidance 20% after DRs leads me to believe, even though bosses werent scaled to hit as hard as t10 bosses would without this, my avoidance is lower. Giving me a higher chance of getting gibbed with multiple hits in a row again, 20% dodge being made up through gear is a large amount, and I don't think it's possible to gear to where we stand now again by stacking avoidance, thus, EH (which we know for a fact is there over avoidance which may or may not RNG us), seems once again, a better option to me.

IMO, and some of the druid forum regulars, it goes like this EH>mitigation>avoidance.