Easy way to fix/improve Ret dps system in PvE

[Handsylton]

Okay, this may be a little out there, but bare with me, I've actually been thinking this through for some time, and it seems like this would be a large improvement over the current combat system we have.

1.) Change Exorcism so it does not cause an automatic critical hit against undead and demons, and change Holy Wrath so it works on all NPCs. This was very useful in Naxx, and a reason that Ret dps was so high there, which is why they made the change to Exorcism being an attack that works on all NPCs in the first place. Normalizing it would not cause any major issues, as well as freeing up the added bonus to the attack, allowing for other benefits to be made. The Holy Wrath change is addressed in number 2.

2.) Create a talent in the 6th tier of the Ret tree called "Exorcism of the Unjust" which would read something like "Gives a 25/50% chance that when Exorcism deals a critical hit, your next cast of Holy Wrath will cost no mana." This would let us actually use a useful attack, which would not just be a nuke because of the way mana regen is working for us, and would give us something to look for, an added bonus and proc based attack.

3.) Reduce the damage done by seals slightly, as now we have another attack to use on occasion, and having seal damage as well as another attack to use would probably push us to the side of being OP.


4.) Increase the cooldown by 2 seconds, but change Divine Storm back to holy damage. It is our 51 point talent, and should at least be something more than just another 110% weapon strike. Do something like remove the inconsequential healing that it does in exchange for the switch back to holy damage.


5.) Add another talent into the Ret tree, probably in the 10th tier called "Wrath of the Holy" which would read along the lines of "Gives a 25/50% chance that when Crusader Strike deals a critical hit, the cooldown on Divine Storm will refresh." This would give us another ability that allows us to have a more complex battle styem, while giving us another ability to watch out for, making paladins a little less faceroll and a little more skilled to play.

Applying these changes would give paladins a slightly more complx system of combat, making us more fun to play, as well as staying away from being so frontloaded because of the reduction in seal damage, because as of right now all we have to do is blow cooldowns and let's be honest, seals are a substantial damage dealer for us. The added proc based talents and the addition of Holy Wrath to a regular rotation would also make us much less of the "3 button facerollers" that rogues seem to think we are.

[iktankniet]

1)HW is too strong to be used in pve. another aoe ability for trash packs which arent undead. im already on the top alot with trash.

2)it still seems like facerolling to me. only it doesnt cost mana when you crit with exorcism

3)lowering seal dmg but giving us 1 'new' ability to use in pve. it increases burst again...

4)this will increase burst and is a HUGE OP talent in pvp. ret paladins wil be drowned in tears of QQ

5)are you serious? you are all about increasing burst dmg even more. DS as holy dmg and it can be made available with CS? c'mon...

applying this will only increase burst dmg even more. there is nothing complex about it. we can unleash everything when its not on cooldown.

i hope you didnt think about this too much since its in no way any good.

edit
reading is hard...

[Handsylton]

1)1 or even 2 abilities that increase burst dmg. you can forget it.

2)see point 1

3)see point 1

4)this will increase burst and is a HUGE OP talent in pvp. ret paladins wil be drowned in tears of QQ

5)are you serious? you are all about increasing burst dmg even more. DS as holy dmg and it can be made available with CS? c'mon...

applying this will only increase burst dmg even more. there is nothing complex about it. we can unleash everything when its not on cooldown.

i hope you didnt think about this too much since its in no way any good.

That's the whole point of reducing seal damage. All of these abilities trigger seal damage, which makes up an extremely substantial chunk of our dps. Changing Divine Storm back to holy damage would cause it to not proc our seals, and allowing these changes would be the compromise of having what I seem to recall as 40% or slightly more of our damage to recieve a nerf. The whole point of reducing seal damage would be to make it so giving us more attacks as well as giving us proc based attacks wouldn't be OP.

[iktankniet]

as far as i can see, DS is still a physical attack, it just deals holy dmg. if they make it a spell we would have to get 13% hit or w/e casters cap is.

getting another instant attack and lowering seal dmg wont increase dps, but the burst ret has.

[Handsylton]

as far as i can see, DS is still a physical attack, it just deals holy dmg. if they make it a spell we would have to get 13% hit or w/e casters cap is.

getting another instant attack and lowering seal dmg wont increase dps, but the burst ret has.

I honestly don't believe that burst is the problem though. I believe that simplicity is the biggest problem. Sure, blowing all our CDs right in a row and not having to pay attention while watching big numbers pop up on our screen is exciting, but reducing seal damage and giving more attacks would keep DPS at around the same place, which is where Blizzard seems to want it because we are after all a hybrid class and shouldn't be dealing as much damage as pure DPS classes, and Blizzard has stated this outright. I guaruntee you that when we're watching our cooldowns and buffs like a hawk to see if a Holy Wrath proc or instant Divine Storm occured, we won't be worrying about all those big numbers popping up on our screen, and our DPS won't suffer because of a little bit more fun in our rotation.


Edit: And spreading our damage over another attack and more cooldowns will effectively lower our burst (less damage per hit and more attacks to spread the damage over = sustained damage, not burst, and maintained dps)

[iktankniet]

I honestly don't believe that burst is the problem though. I believe that simplicity is the biggest problem. Sure, blowing all our CDs right in a row and not having to pay attention while watching big numbers pop up on our screen is exciting, but reducing seal damage and giving more attacks would keep DPS at around the same place, which is where Blizzard seems to want it because we are after all a hybrid class and shouldn't be dealing as much damage as pure DPS classes, and Blizzard has stated this outright. I guaruntee you that when we're watching our cooldowns and buffs like a hawk to see if a Holy Wrath proc or instant Divine Storm occured, we won't be worrying about all those big numbers popping up on our screen, and our DPS won't suffer because of a little bit more fun in our rotation.

GC said that they want to make Ret's rotation more complex and less burst. even though, what you suggested only gives ret 1 more cd to fit into FCFS, not making it more complex or fun to play.

[Handsylton]

The whole point of the proc based system is that it will be more exciting, not just another attack to blow a CD on. Not to mention that Holy Wrath is too mana itensive for us to use without it getting that reduce mana cost proc from Exorcism. It'd end up being something like:

Go through our FCFS rotation. CS>Judge>DS>Cons>Exo. Okay, CS again. Did it proc? Is DS an instant? Yes it is? hit it. No it isn't? Judge, Cons, Exo. Did it proc? Yes? Hit Holy Wrath. No? Hit DS, then CS. Did it proc? Yes, hit DS again. No? Judge, Cons... So on. It still has the FCFS factor, which once again I don't believe is that big of a problem, and "set" rotations are boring to be honest. Who really wants to hit 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 1, 2, 3, 4 and so on and so on. I enjoy the FCFS, but without another element making it more interactive, it becomes very bland very fast. The problem isn't FCFS. The problem is FCFS by itself is faceroll. Give us something to pay attention to while DPS'ing, and something we actually have to watch for and interact with instead of hitting CDs, and I bet you'll find a lot of happy paladins.

[Handsylton]

Paladin discussion thread in the paladin forum?! Forsooth, whom what maligned spectre doth this reprehensible eminate so cravenly?!

From how I read this, 4 of the 5 OP suggestions actually increase burst. Am I wrong in this?

Kind of. The whole "reducing seal damage" would balance out the 4 OP suggestions so they would be not OP. Now if there was no reduction, oh hell yeah it would be OP and the burst would be RIDICULOUS, but that's the whole point of the seal damage reduction. Less damage per hit, more buttons to press, more things to pay attention to and more interactive talents = WIN. If we get one more "X points to buff Y ability by Z% damage", I'm going to scream.

[Handsylton]

1)HW is too strong to be used in pve. another aoe ability for trash packs which arent undead. im already on the top alot with trash.

2)it still seems like facerolling to me. only it doesnt cost mana when you crit with exorcism

3)lowering seal dmg but giving us 1 'new' ability to use in pve. it increases burst again...

4)this will increase burst and is a HUGE OP talent in pvp. ret paladins wil be drowned in tears of QQ

5)are you serious? you are all about increasing burst dmg even more. DS as holy dmg and it can be made available with CS? c'mon...

applying this will only increase burst dmg even more. there is nothing complex about it. we can unleash everything when its not on cooldown.

i hope you didnt think about this too much since its in no way any good.

edit
reading is hard...

Just hear me out here. Seal damage is approximately 40% of our total damage caused. Cutting this damage in half, and having a new ability to use solely on proc as it would be WAY too mana costly to use regularly would not make us OP. If anything, we would still be behind where we are right now. This is why DS is changed back to holy damage. This is also why DS can become available on a crit proc of CS. There is nothing OP or bursty about taking 40% of our damage, cutting it in half, and implementing that 20% we lost in other more creative and interactive ways.

[iktankniet]

Just hear me out here. Seal damage is approximately 40% of our total damage caused. Cutting this damage in half, and having a new ability to use solely on proc as it would be WAY too mana costly to use regularly would not make us OP. If anything, we would still be behind where we are right now. This is why DS is changed back to holy damage. This is also why DS can become available on a crit proc of CS. There is nothing OP or bursty about taking 40% of our damage, cutting it in half, and implementing that 20% we lost in other more creative and interactive ways.

you didnt say you wanted to half seal dmg.

anyway, HW wont make it up the seal loss on single target dps, but it would increase trash dmg BIGTIME. the DS change would certainly increase dps on single and aoe mobs, but its just too OP. it wont work in pvp. they changed it from holy to physical for a reason.

i'd rather see new talents then the ones we have reworked, yet again.


just like Kish said

[Chronik]

Okay first of all Ret paladins are not a pure dps class and should stay where they are on the dps meter around 10th where as a pure dps cass will be numbers 1-5 (Most of the time, but this is how it is in my guild) You can tank heal OR dps Your dps will never be as high as a pure dps just stop crying because you got pvp nerfed fuck off paladins. Stop. Your. BITCHING

[Chronik]

that means you

No. Your the paladin stop the QQ fest and go back to failing at pvp now.

[Bullfrøg]

what if he doesnt fail at PVP?

[Skiball]

To the people who make the

Okay first of all Ret paladins are not a pure dps class and should stay where they are on the dps meter around 10th where as a pure dps cass will be numbers 1-5 (Most of the time, but this is how it is in my guild) You can tank heal OR dps Your dps will never be as high as a pure dps just stop crying because you got pvp nerfed fuck off paladins. Stop. Your. BITCHING

To these types of people: You are totally fine with these "hyrbids" being leet tanks and healers to do your dirty work so you can put on your dps goggles and wipe the raid then post the meters about your leet dps. However, if we want to follow your "they are hybrid so they shouldn't be as good as pure" argument, then they should be only average tanks and healers, and not be able to MT anything. Oh wait, all tanks and healers are some how hybrid, which means if you followed your own logic you would never be able to ZOMG DPS because no tank could stand up to a boss and no healer could keep them up. It is a Ret tree for a reason, it is a balance tree for a reason, they are meant to be used for dps purposes.

/end hypocrisy here please.

Now onto the real topic of the thread. I wonder if we could some how get reckoning back into some form. It has been banished to middle prot so no one could really use it since the hotfix. As presently composed it isn't OP, the old version was. I wonder if they could make it a ret talent and be used as a proc abilitiy when two abilities crit giving you an extra swing for 8 seconds, kinda like the instant pyro of a fire mage or somehting like that. Of course seal damage would have to come down a bit to compensate for this but it would give us something to actually have to look for instead of just facerolling and revive a long dead but fun talent.

[Arganaut]

"No. Your the paladin stop the QQ fest and go back to failing at pvp now."

Hold on, go re-read your post ....

... done ... it was one massive QQ about Ret's being hybrids and shouldn't be competing with pure DPS classes!!

Hypocritical cheese face biatch.

And to OP, Excorism should never have been re-worked to be used on living in the first place. It was a lame, half assed attempt by Blizzard, to ensure out dps didn't drop off in Ulduar. No, re-working Holy Wrath on a similar basis should never happen. It should remain an option in the undead world with cooldowns that conflict with our usual abilities so that our dps isn't stupidly high in IC and Naxx.

[YigiBareTank]

Now onto the real topic of the thread. I wonder if we could some how get reckoning back into some form. It has been banished to middle prot so no one could really use it since the hotfix. As presently composed it isn't OP, the old version was. I wonder if they could make it a ret talent and be used as a proc abilitiy when two abilities crit giving you an extra swing for 8 seconds, kinda like the instant pyro of a fire mage or somehting like that. Of course seal damage would have to come down a bit to compensate for this but it would give us something to actually have to look for instead of just facerolling and revive a long dead but fun talent.

Ok wait, how is critting and getting a buff something to watch for?
I like the idea, but that just doesn't make any sense...
Do you mean like you'd have to activate it after we crit or something? Cause i suppose that would be reasonable.

[tjanson]

And to OP, Excorism should never have been re-worked to be used on living in the first place. It was a lame, half assed attempt by Blizzard, to ensure out dps didn't drop off in Ulduar. No, re-working Holy Wrath on a similar basis should never happen. It should remain an option in the undead world with cooldowns that conflict with our usual abilities so that our dps isn't stupidly high in IC and Naxx.

I agree with this. Bandaid solution to a much bigger problem. "There you go rets, now go away please."

The sad thing is, I don't think the issues with ret that exist can really be solved with anything less than a major relook at how we do our damage. Or they could just... buff Righteous Vengeance - how stupid does that nerf look now?

Rather than add additional cooldowns, or proc based RNG which would only make us even more bursty(and really, who the hell wants that), I would like to see them implement a system in which we build up to a large dps nuke. Not exactly combo points, but similar. My idea would be to add a buff - this is just completely winging it so bear with me - say a buff that stacks on the paladin with each additional Crusader Strike and Divine Storm, making Judgement hit X harder with each stack. Okay, so it's basically combo points. Holy ferals go!

They'd have to adjust our mana regen accordingly, maybe making it proc from CS instead of Judgement, and they'd definitely have to lower the damage of our other abilities, but I think it might help with two things:

1. People complaining that ret's damage in PvP is too front loaded(it's true, really)

2. I honestly don't think that it's all that fun or challenging to simply mash buttons on cooldown(talking PvE now), and I doubt I'm alone in this.

[Handsylton]

I agree with this. Bandaid solution to a much bigger problem. "There you go rets, now go away please."

The sad thing is, I don't think the issues with ret that exist can really be solved with anything less than a major relook at how we do our damage. Or they could just... buff Righteous Vengeance - how stupid does that nerf look now?

Rather than add additional cooldowns, or proc based RNG which would only make us even more bursty(and really, who the hell wants that), I would like to see them implement a system in which we build up to a large dps nuke. Not exactly combo points, but similar. My idea would be to add a buff - this is just completely winging it so bear with me - say a buff that stacks on the paladin with each additional Crusader Strike and Divine Storm, making Judgement hit X harder with each stack. Okay, so it's basically combo points. Holy ferals go!

They'd have to adjust our mana regen accordingly, maybe making it proc from CS instead of Judgement, and they'd definitely have to lower the damage of our other abilities, but I think it might help with two things:

1. People complaining that ret's damage in PvP is too front loaded(it's true, really)

2. I honestly don't think that it's all that fun or challenging to simply mash buttons on cooldown(talking PvE now), and I doubt I'm alone in this.

See the whole point is we don't need a HUGE revamp. It's just not necessary. Combo points is just band-aiding us by putting a new system in place that already exists. I don't get what's so hard to see a system where we use our basic FCFS, which twists thrown in that will give us more to look for, and more to do. Increase the cooldown on Divine Storm to 20 seconds. Make it holy damage. Make it a 5/10% chance on CS crit to proc a refresh. (With 50% raid buffed crit, that's a 2.5/5% chance of it becoming refreshed, not really OP) It should be our hardest hitting attack, it's our 51 point talent. Give it some OOMPH, and lessen seal damage. This is not a complete overhaul, and asking for an entirely new battle system when they JUST got seals how they wanted it is ridiculous. Changing a coefficient so seals do less damage, and implementing two RNG procs is not a complete overhaul, nor should the paladin class recieve. I would be much more worried about our status if we had some ridiculous rotation like arcane mages, because frankly, a simple rotation would kill this class even more.

[Handsylton]

No. Your the paladin stop the QQ fest and go back to failing at pvp now.

Well if you had actually read what I wrote, you would have seen the part where I said that we DON'T need to do more damage then we are now. There was nothing in any of these posts saying that I want paladins to be more powerful, so you can take your QQ'ing, trolling ass and get out of my thread.

[Handsylton]

Ok wait, how is critting and getting a buff something to watch for?
I like the idea, but that just doesn't make any sense...
Do you mean like you'd have to activate it after we crit or something? Cause i suppose that would be reasonable.

That is exactly what I'm talking about. You crit with CS, and boom, you recieve a BUFF called "Wrath of the Holy", a 5 second buff that makes your Divine Storm refresh, and when Divine Storm is used, the buff goes away.

You crit with Exorcism, you gain a BUFF called "Exorcism of the Unjust", and your next cast of Holy Wrath costs no mana. When you use it, the buff disappears.


It's an RNG proc based system for a few attacks, but in reality, that's all this class needs. FCFS is better than "press these buttons in this order, and that's IT, and that's your dps, and never change anything about this order or you will do shit for dps."