Trying to explain - some math about 3.2

[arel00]

Ok, there has been a lot of confusion and misinformation around. Some scream thanking heavens, some drown in tears of QQ. Thus, I'm approaching the CS and Seals changes with 3.2 from a purely PvE point of view, and with a purely mathematical approach.

I'm assuming for this model the stats of my guild's number 1 retpala, in a fully raidbuffed situation. This account, in specific for what concerns this comparison, into having all buffs that boost melee damage, the spellpower buffs from ToW and Fish Feast, and Ebon Plaguebringer. This is a very common situations for 25men raids.

The resulting stats of our interest are: 6632 Attack Power, 2315 Spell Power, an average white swing hit for 2652 damage, and a swing speed of 2.71 seconds (RAWR most recent model). To simplify the math, I am not accounting for crit (for now).

Let's see first, what Crusader Strike does. With 3.1, now, CS is a base of 110% weapon damage, modified by 15% form Sanctity of Battle and 10% from Art of War. Vengeance and 2handed weapon spec are already accounted in the base weapon damage. So we have a (they are additive, afaik) 135% weapon damage, on a 6sec cooldown.

So we have CS = WP*1.35 = 2652*1.35 = 3580 damage
Hence, CS(dps) = 3580/6 = 597dps

With 3.2, we have a base of 75% weapon damage, for a total, after talents, of 100% weapon damage, this time on a 4sec cooldown.

So CS = WP = 2652 damage
CS(dps) = 2652/4 = 663dps

A net increase, with these stats, of 66dps, roughly 11% more.

Let's look at the Seals now, which is the most tricky part. First, let's look at Seal of Blood now. It hits for 48% weapon damage on every swing.

SoB = WP*0.48 = 2652*0.48 = 1273 damage

It gets modified by Ebon Plaguebringer, and I'm assuming from Vengeance, Crusade and Sanctifed Retribution. It results, additively, on a 28% damage buff.

Hence, SoB = 1273*1.28 = 1629 damage

DPS from white swings = 1629/2.71 = 601dps
DPS from CS = 1629/6 = 272dps
DPS from DS = 1629/10 = 163dps
DPS form Judgement (assuming it procs off that too, which I think it does) = 1629/8 = 204dps

Mind you, this is an ideal situation when every ability goes off perfectly every cooldown. The reality teaches us it is much lower, but for the sake of comparing values it will do. We have a total of 1240dps from the Seal, assuming only regular hits.

Now let's look at Seal of Vengeance. It does 15% of AP plus 8.8% SP as holy damage over 15 seconds, stacking up to 5 times.
With the mentioned values, we have:

SoV(single) = AP*0.15+SP*0.88 = 1198damage
SoV(stacked) = 1198*5 = 5990damage

To this, we'll add Vengeance, Crusade, Sanctified Retribution, Ebon Plaguebringer and of course, Seals of the Pure (I don't think anyone would be insane enough to skip the talents and use SoV :P). Additively, these account for a 43% damage buff.

Hence, SoV(stacked) = 5990*1.43 = 8566 damage

To this, we must add 33% of weapon damage every swing once the dot is fully stacked. I'm hereby assuming that the Seal procs off CS and DS aswell (the dot does), but (since now the dot doesn't I think) not off its own judgement, unlike Blood. Follows:

SoV(swing) = WP*0.33 = 2652*0.33 = 875 damage
Assuming the same buffs, it becomes SoV(swing) = 875*1.43 = 1251 damage

DPS from white swings = 1251/2.71 = 462dps
DPS from CS = 1251/4 = 313dps (remember, CS is at 4sec with 3.2)
DPS from DS = 1251/10 = 125dps

Now add DPS from DoT effect = 8566/15 = 571dps

The total DPS awarded by Seal of Vengeance is 1470dps. Again, assuming only regular hits and again with an ideal situation. The net gain over Seal of Blood is 230dps, roughly a 18%. As you can see, this is already a substantial increase.

Let's look at the judgements now. Seal of Blood's judgement does 26% weapon damage plus 11% of AP plus 18% of SP as holy damage.

SoB(judgement) = WP*0.26+AP*0.11+SP*0.18 = 1836 damage

And it gets buffed by Ebon Plaguebringer, Crusade, Vengeance, Sanctified Retribution, for a total of 28% extra damage.

SoB(judgement) = 1836*1.28 = 2350 damage
Hence, DPS = 2350/8 = 294dps

Seal of Vengeance's judgement does 14% of AP plus 22% of SP as holy damage.

SoV(judgement) = AP*0.14+SP*0.22+1 = 6632*0.14+2315*0.22+1 = 1438 damage

We also know SoV judgement gets buffed by 10% every stack, for a maximum of 50% at 5 stacks, so we have:

SoV(judgement) = 1438*1.5 = 2157 damage

Adding in Ebon Plaguebringer, Crusade, Vengeance, Sanctified Retribution and Seals of the Pure we have:

SoV(judgement) = 2157*1.43 = 3084 damage
Hence, 3084/8 = 386dps

Yes, Vengeance's judgement hits harder than Blood's. The net gain is 92dps, roughly a 30%.

What are the results from these two changes in the end?

With 3.1 we have a total of 2131dps, from CS at 135% on 6sec, Seal of Blood and Judgement of Blood.
With 3.2 we have a total of 2519dps, from CS at 100% on 4sec, Seal of Vengeance and Judgement of Vengeance.

The net difference is 388dps, meaning 3.2 changes for Seals and CS are roughly a 18% increase in sustained DPS.

I don't pretend that this model is perfect, but it is based on some decent math and common sense assumptions / known formulas. While we all know that 3.2 is still in early design and many things could change, this is a reasonable comparison of what we can expect as things were stated in these patch notes. I hope this helps clearing some doubts.


Edited: I damm know I'm missing some buffs. For the sake of knowledge, please correct me if you spot errors or things I've forgotten.

[Veliane]

Nice job.

Double checked, sounds about right for what we know.
This is indeed very sexy for single target DPS where we lack the most, more so it being swapped mostly to holy damage as we have not much use for Arp and we suck when hitting 'tough' like bosses.

Edit:

Just to add in something, with the new CS cooldown you can fit 5 CSs into an AW/Trinket instead of 3, adds even more DPS.

[Bluerelic]

Napkin math says your numbers are ballpark correct, but i dont believe the talent bonuses are cumulative, i think since wow registers your tooltip at 137-138%% with the appropriate talents. Also you added Seals of the Pure to SoV DoT damage, but not to the melee swing damage which it was specifically changed to effect in 3.0.8(?) or somewhere there abouts...of course thats subject to change since the spell is being changed in 3.2, but figured i would mention it.

[Handsylton]

Went over all your math, looks solid. Just gonna show the math so people can see how the AP~swing damage ratio works.

My paladin has 2150 AP, and this gives me a 153.0 dps gain. My weapon speed is 3.22, so 153.0*3.22 = 492.66 damage per swing.

To figure out how much benefit each AP gives me, 492.66/2150 = .22 damage per swing per AP. This means for each AP you have, you gain ~.07 dps.

Looking at your numbers, a 6632*.07 = 464 dps gain on white swings.

[arel00]

Napkin math says your numbers are ballpark correct, but i dont believe the talent bonuses are cumulative, i think since wow registers your tooltip at 137-138%% with the appropriate talents. Also you added Seals of the Pure to SoV DoT damage, but not to the melee swing damage which it was specifically changed to effect in 3.0.8(?) or somewhere there abouts...of course thats subject to change since the spell is being changed in 3.2, but figured i would mention it.

I'm a bit unsure about the bonus being additive myself. Usually WoW bonuses are multiplied, but if you look at your character data you'll find (e.g.) that Sanctified Retribution and 2hand weapn spec seem to be added directly (says "damage*109%" I think).
Thing is, if the bonuses are multiplied, the result is an even bigger number. While unsure, I opted for the smaller version.
Regarding Seals of the Pure, I don't get your point. I used a 1.43 modifier, which includes Seals of the Pure, for both the DoT and the swing proc component of SoV (and for the judgement) as I think it should. The talent says "increases the effects of XYZ and of their judgement effects by 15%", hence the application on all parts of it.
Maybe it will be applied only to the dot, but it's early to say now until the PTR is up

[Veliane]

What you all probably suspect, they are additive.
If they would diminish on themselves it wouldn't be worth spec'ing into, and if they were multiplicative with eachother they'd be too strong to be intended.

Like you said Arel you'll see 109% in your Melee and those sort of numbers then you can base your numbers out of that.


I remember seeing why it'd show as X to X%, I think, not sure, it's sanctity of battle actually being 15.5%, .5% that doesn't show, same with the PvP gloves., and the CS libram from naxx.

Without talents and with Gloves you'll see CS says 115 to 116, with Art of War and gloves 125 to 126 but both talents and gloves you're see a square 141%.

[Fujiama]

Damn, awesome job on making that. It's cleared up a lot of confusion for me. Thanks!

[daenerys]

They are not additive, My crusader strike does 137 to 138% weapon damage.

All percentage based damage increases in WoW are multiplicitive which is actually a bonus.

Additive 10% +10%= 20% gain

Multiplicitive 1.10 * 1.10 = 1.21 = 21% gain

[arel00]

All percentage based damage increases in WoW are multiplicitive which is actually a bonus.

Additive 10% +10%= 20% gain

Multiplicitive 1.10 * 1.10 = 1.21 = 21% gain

This is usually the case. My doubts is that some of the "increased damage" effects seem to be added up. If I have some time I'll add the double results if the factors are multiplied. On a quick note, you're right, all numbers get stronger that way.

[Whoopzz]

/thumbsup for a good thread.


However, when you consider the clashing cooldowns the increase may not be as high as what you've projected. TBH, I only see the changes as an increase on sustained, long term, single target DPS, and nerfs everywhere else.


I am happy that the skill cap is being bumped on Ret, though it still has a ways to go.

[Handsylton]

Which is pretty much what we needed. Our PvP damage was great, our AoE damage output was great, but our single target DPS on bosses was horrendous. I'm thankful for the changes, as this will even the playing field for PvP, as well as trade our AoE damage for a solid buff to single target mobs.

[Whoopzz]

Which is pretty much what we needed. Our PvP damage was great, our AoE damage output was great, but our single target DPS on bosses was horrendous. I'm thankful for the changes, as this will even the playing field for PvP, as well as trade our AoE damage for a solid buff to single target mobs.

Except Ret is worthless in arena now. Between the changes to resilience, the nerf to Vindication, and the nerf to our pvp DPS, we're left even further from being competitive. And we STILL don't have the offensive utilities that everyone else has.

Our AoE DPS is a joke, the only thing thats going for us in that respect is that its always up (which only gives us an advantage if theres 4 or less mobs in the pack). Its too situational to claim that our AoE damage was great, because its not. Consecration needs a huge buff, or what i'd REALLY like to see is to make DS comparable to Howling Blast.

[Handsylton]

Except Ret is worthless in arena now. Between the changes to resilience, the nerf to Vindication, and the nerf to our pvp DPS, we're left even further from being competitive.


And we STILL don't have the offensive utilities that everyone else has.

Basically from what I understand, when this goes up on the PTR and if it works out how they want, THEN they are going to add utility. This isn't the final patch notes, it's the first round. They don't want to promise a bunch of things and then say whoops sorry we take that back.

[Whoopzz]

Basically from what I understand, when this goes up on the PTR and if it works out how they want, THEN they are going to add utility. This isn't the final patch notes, it's the first round. They don't want to promise a bunch of things and then say whoops sorry we take that back.

Correct. Blizzard said they wanted to balance us in PvE now, and everything else in a future patch, which means we are shit out of luck for season 7.

[Handsylton]

Correct. It still leaves us shit out of luck for season 7, though.

Well it's not like they're implementing the 3.2 changes right now. Even through s7 we're still gonna have ridiculous burst. It sucks to not have the tools we need, but it's better that they didn't hotfix some of these changes in, because we would really be shit out of luck then.

[Underbar]

Good and informativ post, its just 2 things that ive noticed that isnt correct.

First of all, judges doesnt proc seals.

And second, Art of War and Sanctity of Battle doesnt ad 10% and 15% WEAPON damage, but 10% and 15% damage, so it wont be 100% weapondamage, but 93,75% weapondamage (0,75*1,25).

[Whoopzz]

Well it's not like they're implementing the 3.2 changes right now. Even through s7 we're still gonna have ridiculous burst. It sucks to not have the tools we need, but it's better that they didn't hotfix some of these changes in, because we would really be shit out of luck then.

How do you figure that we'll have ridiculous burst? Everything included thus far in 3.2 patch notes have nerfed our burst significantly.


At this point, with the changes to resilience (reduces crit damage, and reduces ALL damage), the nerf to vindication (loss of the -20% health), both of which scale with the targets gear... THEN factor in the loss of DPS from SoB/SoM to SoComm, and the changes to CS (which amount to less burst), and no utility and you have one hell of a worthless class to bring to the arena.


Only way I see a positive in this is if Vindication reduces a percentage of spell power in addition to attack power, or we're given a LOT of offensive utility. Otherwise I guess i'll be sitting out for S7 again, because nobody will want ret Paladins.

[PalliesThrowStuff]

Except Ret is worthless in arena now. Between the changes to resilience, the nerf to Vindication, and the nerf to our pvp DPS, we're left even further from being competitive. And we STILL don't have the offensive utilities that everyone else has.

Our AoE DPS is a joke, the only thing thats going for us in that respect is that its always up (which only gives us an advantage if theres 4 or less mobs in the pack). Its too situational to claim that our AoE damage was great, because its not. Consecration needs a huge buff, or what i'd REALLY like to see is to make DS comparable to Howling Blast.

I'm not convinced that our burst is dead, yet.

CS is no longer the freight train loaded with piping hot gravy that it used to be, but think for just a moment that 110%(mitigated) + 43%(unmitigated) was what we were seeing.

Now it's 75%(Mitigated) + 36%(umitigated) but in 2/3 the cooldown.

Landing two CS during a HoJ stun yields typically more damage than one did as of live. Plus we get exorcism back, even if we have to proc it, it's still an extra burst button that we don't have currently.

I think we'll be in a very similar state of high burst, no tools, but much more reliant on that 6 second stun to deliver the whole load than we used to be. That's a bit unfortunate, as our PvP life already revolves around a 40 second cooldown, but I think it's manageable enough to say we'll be better represented than BM hunters.

[Whoopzz]

but I think it's manageable enough to say we'll be better represented than BM hunters.

I chuckled when I saw this.

[arel00]

Good and informativ post, its just 2 things that ive noticed that isnt correct.

First of all, judges doesnt proc seals.

And second, Art of War and Sanctity of Battle doesnt ad 10% and 15% WEAPON damage, but 10% and 15% damage, so it wont be 100% weapondamage, but 93,75% weapondamage (0,75*1,25).

Normally judgements don't proc anything, but I'm pretty sure that until 3.0.8 at least Seal of Blood procs off it's own judgement. I need some test ingame to confirm it now, I'll do when I have some time (I raid etc as prot ^^).

As for the modifiers, I'll post the math with the numbers multiplied. I have it already on the spreadsheet, just need to take some time and post everything.