Protection the NEW HOLY?!

[Crimsonak]

i beat DKs all the time as PRot. (non-healing)

i wait for icebound to drop before i stun.

you also forgot about anti-magic shell which reduces alot of the damage they take from pallies cus it's mostly all holy damage.

but even with that it just delays the inevitable.

As prot non healing it's a completely different story, you have tanking weapons which have a higher DPS than healing weapons, and Hammer of Righterousness to go with that. Aswell as Shield of the Righteousness doing more damage too and Holy Shield. It's not really an accurate comparison if you beat a DK as Prot-Prot compared to Prot-Healing.
It's a totally different spec, gearset and set of conditions.

3x 5k crits = 15k damage, 3 seconds, during this time, he can't dish out much damage cause: He's out of RP(Frost Strike), He's out of Runes(Unholy).
Dispelling diseases reduces his damage dramatically. Icy Touch and Plague Strike cause terrible damage. So don't tell me that can't be healed.

You just suck at playing your class vs a DK.

Don't waste your hammer of justice on a DK who's using icebound fortitude.

Dk's can and do undoubedly kill prot paladins, even on a 1v1 basis.
Especially on a 2v2 basis. It has nothing to do with him not playing his class right at all, DK's without a doubt are probably the best melee class of all suited for fighting prot paladins. Arguably on par with rogues.
It may not be easy and it may require very good timing on part of the DK.
But it's doable to the point where once mastered it's pretty much repeatable consistantly.

[Raiss]

The block rating pretty much means sod all anyway since prot paladins weakness is the have to cast they have no instant spells. Can't block while casting, realistically with a DK beating on you, you wont have that much time when you're even capable of blocking.

More to the point anyway most DK's are unholy which means.. you can block every attack they do apart from spells, however thats generally acceptable since you can't block any spells. (AKA Death coil, icy touch)
The very low amount of DK's that go frost for the arena, okay you can't block frost strike.
Not only is that being removed next patch though, but as a frost DK against a prot paladin you lose a pet and more importantly an easier maintainance of diseases on the target which can easily be dispelled as frost. So in short the one spec that can actually activly ignore blocks from you, has a harder time killing you anyway.

This aside though it is very possible for a DK to kill a prot paladin but not for any of the reasons mentioned, it's easy because every time the paladin heals an interrupt is viable from the DK, and between that and silences /stuns from the DK's partner or pet, it's very possible to prevent a prot paladin from getting off a single cast for the full amount of his HP, and with a well timed strangulate even prevent any bubbling.

The fact prot paladins are viable isn't a show that paladin regen is too powerful, it's a show that the holy tree is essentially lackluster and really the only things of major worth are holy shock and infusion of light as far as PvP is concerned.
You can sacrifice those for things of much more worth in the prot tree such as a 20sec CD on HoJ, and huge spellpower from stamina. and it really is a huge gain in spellpower, so much so that I honestly don't see why (especially in Ulduar) that it wouldn't be viable for PvE too.
I mean sure you could argue the loss of BoL, but in Ulduar alot of fights require so much range between tanks and raid or anything of such that it isn't even applicable, and as far as strength of heals go prot is bounds above holy.

I'm sure you read

"Large ammount of interrupts"
and
"No instant heals"

Right?

And, since you know he can interrupt you, sometimes is actually worthy to not cast and block + seal of justice stun a deathknight. Doing this helps wheh junk casting. And again: blocking is about mitigating dmg, but preventing debuffs, like rend/hamstring from warriors, that are always fully blocked.

And it's not viable on pve because:

Low int
Low critical
No +healing talents
Pve gear doesn't have stammina like pvp gear, so the spellpower from Tbtl is weak. Don't forget you lose a deep holy talent that gives you 15% from your int in spellpower.
Lose beacon of light, that is really important at Ulduar. Beacon isn't about healing the off tanker and the MT at the same time.
You lose 4% hit (melee hiting the boss with wisdom and -15% cast time (huge haste buff)
Divine Illumination, another mana regen cooldown.
And you can't afford to keep Divine Plea up in pve, if you are doing this, you could heal more as ret with JoL.

[Raiss]

3x 5k crits = 15k damage, 3 seconds, during this time, he can't dish out much damage cause: He's out of RP(Frost Strike), He's out of Runes(Unholy).
Dispelling diseases reduces his damage dramatically. Icy Touch and Plague Strike cause terrible damage. So don't tell me that can't be healed.

You just suck at playing your class vs a DK.

Don't waste your hammer of justice on a DK who's using icebound fortitude.

Who said I waste HoJ on Icebound? I have afflicted installed, thanks.

Now image this:

I'm at 25k hp, because I was healing my partner. In 3 seconds the DK's hits me for 15k, now I have only 10. If i try to heal, he will mind freeze, I will lose 5 seconds. If I manage to junk cast him, I will lose more than 2 seconds interrupting myself. After that, more 2 seconds in strangulate.

Now, you had 5 to 8 seconds to do 5k dmg, isn't that hard.

[Crimsonak]

I'm sure you read

"Large ammount of interrupts"
and
"No instant heals"

Right?

And, since you know he can interrupt you, sometimes is actually worthy to not cast and block + seal of justice stun a deathknight. Doing this helps wheh junk casting. And again: blocking is about mitigating dmg, but preventing debuffs, like rend/hamstring from warriors, that are always fully blocked.

And it's not viable on pve because:

Low int
Low critical
No +healing talents
Pve gear doesn't have stammina like pvp gear, so the spellpower from Tbtl is weak. Don't forget you lose a deep holy talent that gives you 15% from your int in spellpower.
Lose beacon of light, that is really important at Ulduar. Beacon isn't about healing the off tanker and the MT at the same time.
You lose 4% hit (melee hiting the boss with wisdom and -15% cast time (huge haste buff)
Divine Illumination, another mana regen cooldown.
And you can't afford to keep Divine Plea up in pve, if you are doing this, you could heal more as ret with JoL.

Firstly, chosing to stand there and block attacks instead of healing when you need to is possibly the stupidest thing you can do unless your partner can heal you. Even when the risk of an interrupt is involved.
Against a warrior yes but thats hardly surprising since really Warrior viability these days pretty much depends on him being around a druid in 2's which means they can relieve pressure on him and enable him to actually kill things instead of being clad into an epic struggle to not die and sit with a shield out for 70% of a match, which other classes can't do aswell.


Secondly while prot does have significanly lower crit than the holy build thats not reason alone to make it not viable because it's not a HUGE amount of crit.
Furthermore, there is absolutly nothing stopping you from optiming your gear for PvE through a mixture of whatever it takes between pve and pvp gear in order to gain the most benefit to you from that build. Mana isn't an issue as I mentioned before.
The 15% haste you mentioned is irrelevant to a degree (Emphasis on that because I know what people are like on these forums) my point is haste isnt as beneficial as you're trying to make it out to be) because FoL is the same cast time as the GCD, 15% off that means only that the heal arrives earrlier which could once in a blue moon save someone because it lands before they get hit. It's a very rare situation where 0.2 seconds is gonna make a difference though.
Lastly the beacon comment you made makes absolutly no sense to me at all.. I don't know if you're trying to say thats how you use it or if you're trying to say thats what I said it does?
Either way I didn't claim that at all.

And you misunderstood what I meant about divine plea, I was stating that in prot moments where you have to divine plea are easier handled due to your heals being so strong in the first place that the impact on keeping someone up during it is minimalised should you need to do it.

Lastly im not trying to say it's better, in every way. I am trying to say I don't see why it isn't viable and judging by the reasons you gave neither can you really.

[Wintry]

Raiss:

You're wrong about:

And it's not viable on pve because:

Low int
Low critical
No +healing talents
Pve gear doesn't have stammina like pvp gear, so the spellpower from Tbtl is weak. Don't forget you lose a deep holy talent that gives you 15% from your int in spellpower.
Lose beacon of light, that is really important at Ulduar. Beacon isn't about healing the off tanker and the MT at the same time.
You lose 4% hit (melee hiting the boss with wisdom and -15% cast time (huge haste buff)
Divine Illumination, another mana regen cooldown.
And you can't afford to keep Divine Plea up in pve, if you are doing this, you could heal more as ret with JoL.

((int is the same on a pve prot healer since they can still grab 28 points down holy.
((No +healing talents: reread touched by the light, it scales just as fast as in and actually better with raid buffs.
((PVE gear may not have the same amount of stamina as PVP, but in almost all gear the stamina is the same or exceeds int. Of which, touched by the light gives 30% as SP while Holy Guidance only gives 20% of int as SP.
((Beacon will only be good in 3.2, but is this nicer than having possible 6k ticks?
((4% hit? really?
((Prot has less mana problems than Holy... i dont even know why you're talking about divine plea

[Wintry]

actually if you'd like... just look at my sig and tell me that i'd be all that much different as holy. ((it is still my secondary healing spec though, can't wait till beacon finally works as it should since wotlk came out.))

[Bilbobubblin]

The spec, like others have said, is mostly for PvP. I could see it being workable in PvE, but it would not match the increased versatility of a Holy-focused build. Decent enough for a 5m or 10m? Sure. But if your 10m is doing hardmodes... ehhh not so much. Try doing Firefighter without Holy Shock, seriously.

[Raiss]

@ Wintry
Prot Holy Lights are just too slow, and you can't keep a tank alive only with flash of light in a hard-mode. That's the main reason it won't work.
Tbtl is a great talent, but if your heals don't crit, they will be weak. And you can rely on critical heals all the time.

@Crimsonak

And what about blocking + dispelling + rebuffing (if there is dispell) + melee hiting for divine plea refresh + regen mana from blessing of sanct + regen mana from seal of wisdom or stunning with justice + Hand of Freedom + AV shield. All this GCD you don't need to cast you should be able to be blocking someone. As I said, you can block important skills, such rend (no overpower procs) or gouge.

[Gilissen]

Prot healing is viable for some pve encounters but on most fights you should stick to holy since beacon is just necessary & that extra oomph of a glyphed holy light.

The prot vs dk discussion : well dks give me A LOT of trouble and that's with 31k hp & 600res, without their partner I can still get taken down to 0% from 100% if I don't have a critheal in between all the possible interrupts.

The only other class that could lock me out from healing that much is a rogue but they take the double amount of time to achieve that not to mention a simple block of a gouge could end it.

[G l o w y r m]

All I can say is I have seen really skilled/geared PVP DK's beat pretty much equal Prot Pallies and Holy Pallies 1v1. It went back and forth a few times but after the DK learned the timing that the other guy used and got used to him he knew when to pop his stuff better.

[faustt]

This is the current problem in arena.... Paladin's Prot/Holy is very OP.

This shows me paladin heals/mana regen are too strong, but paladins are always op in one spec or another these days what else is new

yea they always been op , cuz op means u could only play holy pre bc and bc when ret sucked and only until the end of bc did protect become viable , gg boi always op . And a protect holy pali is so easy to tear up as long u know how to fight against them , l2play kid.

[Refreshment]

Prot healing was never meant to be, so all arguements about it not being viable is invalid.

[Xs]

Proly is pretty viable in Ulduar, think of all the fights where Beacon is actually giving you more than just 50% overheal, theres not a great deal where its actually overly useful
For things like Razor, Vezax and Yoggy p1/2 Proly is quite a way ahead of Holy
Ofc its not fully viable for most hard modes or very high damage fights, but thats why you have dual spec like Wintry

Still, I hope they break it and fix Holy a little bit better before 3.2 is live

[Raptorg]

Who said I waste HoJ on Icebound? I have afflicted installed, thanks.

Now image this:

I'm at 25k hp, because I was healing my partner. In 3 seconds the DK's hits me for 15k, now I have only 10. If i try to heal, he will mind freeze, I will lose 5 seconds. If I manage to junk cast him, I will lose more than 2 seconds interrupting myself. After that, more 2 seconds in strangulate.

Now, you had 5 to 8 seconds to do 5k dmg, isn't that hard.

That DK won't be dealing 15k damage in 3 seconds if you were dispelling. You already failed there.

Where's your partner? Is he glued to the opponent's healer 100% of the arena fight?
Why isn't he there to help you when you need him? You failed again here.



I may not have an arena team, but I do have common sense, something you seem to lack. You look like the kind of person who just copies tactics from the internet, and who's too scared shit of improvising.

[masterprtzl]

Does Scourge Strike ignore block/armor? I always get crit for almost 9k with that skill.


If anyone wants to learna bout prot healing, there is a huge threat about it on arena mmo forums.

goes past armor but can be blocked.

[masterprtzl]

@ Wintry
Prot Holy Lights are just too slow, and you can't keep a tank alive only with flash of light in a hard-mode. That's the main reason it won't work.
Tbtl is a great talent, but if your heals don't crit, they will be weak. And you can rely on critical heals all the time.

@Crimsonak

And what about blocking + dispelling + rebuffing (if there is dispell) + melee hiting for divine plea refresh + regen mana from blessing of sanct + regen mana from seal of wisdom or stunning with justice + Hand of Freedom + AV shield. All this GCD you don't need to cast you should be able to be blocking someone. As I said, you can block important skills, such rend (no overpower procs) or gouge.

you can easily keep a tank up with flash of lights- they crit for like 13k as prot, maybe higher not really sure

Holy light crits for what? 20k? you can get 1.5 flash of lights off in the time of one holy light (maybe im mistaken) and that is more hps than holy lights.

[Ronark]

you can easily keep a tank up with flash of lights- they crit for like 13k as prot, maybe higher not really sure

Holy light crits for what? 20k? you can get 1.5 flash of lights off in the time of one holy light (maybe im mistaken) and that is more hps than holy lights.

Normal modes yes, Hard modes, never.

Try MT healing Hard mode Counsel with only FLs, and watch as the tank is murdered due to the reduced Healing PCT difference of FoL and HL.

[nwo]

I myself as resto druid and a blood DK fought over an hour on the PTR in 2's vs a single prot/holy paladin until I finally got tired of it and left the match. Anyone who has tested the current ptr knows the issue.

Blood DKs are terrible for arena, so there is your problem right there. BTW, isn't there a 45 minute time limit on arenas ???

lol you combine all 3 specs of a DK into one... seriously just give it up.

This is sad coming from a DK...

Lots of DKs are frost in arenas and can unload 3-4 frost strikes simultaneously (that crit for 8k on someone with 800 resil) which cannot be dodged/blocked. They also have a few other abilities that aren't as powerful.

As far as the stun resist and silences/interrupts... Those aren't talent based, every DK has them as baseline trainable abilities.

Besides, you shouldn't be crying about a holy pally blocking for ~300 damage 35% of the time. If that's a problem for you then try attacking from behind?

[Electrikkftw]

1970 2's, 2k 3's, 2k 5's, 2.2k MMR DK here. Prot paladins are easier to kill than holy

Perfect timing? 18s buff. You pop it before you start a burst chain.
Interrupts? You've got 3 potential interrupts. Death grip is one of them. (Aura Mastery anyone?)

Any DK that can't beat a prot is a baddy.

[gobgob34]

Now image this:

I'm at 25k hp, because I was healing my partner. In 3 seconds the DK's hits me for 15k, now I have only 10. If i try to heal, he will mind freeze, I will lose 5 seconds. If I manage to junk cast him, I will lose more than 2 seconds interrupting myself. After that, more 2 seconds in strangulate.

Now, you had 5 to 8 seconds to do 5k dmg, isn't that hard.

Aura mastery and fake casts ftw lol. As prot healing in arena you have to fake cast every time you know his cd for mind freeze is back, to make him waste it. Strangulate is different becuase its unpredictable when he'll use it, but at least you wernt interupted twice.