An actual solution to stacking SoV

[Handsylton]

As you and I already know, Ret paladin burst has been an issue in PvP for a long time now. By PvP, I don't mean "Arena", I mean any PvP situation. We have a truckload of burst to unload right away on any target when all our cooldowns are up. This is the reason for the SoV nerf to only stack Holy Vengeance on auto-attacks. This will give us a ramp up time of approximately 15-20 seconds before we can start doing 100% of our total damage.

Now, I agree with the change for PvP, but the downside of this change is the negative consequences that it is having on the PvE side of the equation. Our total damage when we have 5 stacks of Holy Vengeance up is the same, this is not the issue. The issue is having to wait 15-20 seconds before we can do 100% damage in PvE. This change will effectively keep us around the same place for single target Patchwerk type bosses, maybe lower our DPS a little bit. It will also, consequentially ruin our DPS on boss fights where there are adds that we have to kill, as well as phases or durations during the fight where we have to move away from the boss for an extended period of time.

Now, as you and I can both plainly see, our DPS as a whole is going to suffer substantially from this change, and I have an idea for a good way to:

1) fix the ramp up time for PvE, allowing us to get to our max dps in a time equal to that of equivalent classes.
2) add a little bit more skill to the Ret paladin spec, forging a difference between the good ret and bad ret pallies.
3) Keep our damage from being too bursty in PvP, while letting us have a little extra burst when we need it for things like XT's heartbreaker phase, as an example.

The solution that I came up with is from an ability that we already have, which the Dev's have already started to implement by lowering it's cooldown. I'm talking, of course, about Holy Wrath. A rehaul of this old, situationally useful at best, and otherwise useless spell can solve the problem of stacking the Holy Vengeance DoT for PvE while keeping the burst down in PvP.

The New Holy Wrath:

20% base mana
8 second cast (channeled) 15 second cooldown
8 yard raduis

The Light encircles the paladin, causing [2% AP+2% SP] as Holy damage and placing a stack of Holy Vengeance every two seconds on any target that is standing in the radius of Holy Wrath. Spell lasts 8 seconds (channeled).

Now, this change has many different reprocussions.

First, it will give Paladins another all purpose AoE ability. Some may say that this would give paladins too good of AoE damage, but the 20% mana cost and the 15 seconds cooldown in addition to the spell being channeled will effectively only make it beneficial for the paladin to use when getting Holy Vengeance stacks up on an enemy.

Some would also argue that this would allow paladins to stack Holy Vengeance on a PvP opponent quickly, thus not solving the burst problem. The answer is that the spell is channeled, allowing for no extra damage to be done by the paladin during this ability, as well as the obvious fact that you can either move out of the AoE or CC/Interrupt the cast to stop him. This spell would be next to useless in any PvP situation.

Think of the consequences of this ability on Paladins in PvE. A well timed and well placed Holy Wrath would allow you to put multiple stacks of Holy Vengeance on multiple targets, rewarding the paladin for using this skill in a talented way, while a misplaced and poorly timed Holy Wrath would yield in lower DPS, as the paladin would have to wait for his auto-attacks to stack Holy Vengeance before 100% dps could be reached.



TL;DR = Holy Wrath becomes a channeled 8 second spell that stacks Holy Vengeance on any opponent in it's radius every 2 seconds. Useless in PvP because it's channeled as a melee dps, while it brings the ramp up time for PvE in line with other comparable classes, as well as adding a new mechanic for paladins, making our damage rely on talent and well planned and placed spells = less faceroll Ret pallies.

[omnscient]

bump

[Ronark]

Also note, that using this in PvP, and getting Spelllocked/Interrupted, would close out all our other abilities (except CS/DS).

[sabrelime]

You now know how it feels to be a a mutilate rogue, with the inability to switch targets well in pve.

[Lark]

The simplest solution I can come up with is CS/DS, whenever they proc the bonus damage, you gain a 'charge'. Whenever you hit someone who doesn't have a 5 stack with CS or DS, a charge is consumed (one per attack, not per hit) and the special is allowed to proc a SoV stack. Assuming proper tuning on charge stack and duration, this would allow you to perform target swaps in arena, not fall behind on quick switching in pve while downplaying the oft complained about opening burst.

It isn't the best solution, but it's the simplest and actually probably pretty easy to code.

[Arnaiyus]

Someone need to post this in Blizz's paladin forum or in the PTR forums. We need more excellent ideas like this. I completly approve.

[sah303136]

You now know how it feels to be a a mutilate rogue, with the inability to switch targets well in pve.

except we cant do decent damage right away and our knock off combo points can be cleansed
while i know you guys can pretty much do mutilol mutilol into an evis in under 4 secs when leaving stealth... ( not saying you always do or its smart, but you have the option to...)

Someone need to post this in Blizz's paladin forum or in the PTR forums. We need more excellent ideas like this. I completly approve.

its excelent ideas similar to this that made the dk class xD.... see chains of justice

[sabrelime]

except we cant do decent damage right away and our knock off combo points can be cleansed
while i know you guys can pretty much do mutilol mutilol into an evis in under 4 secs when leaving stealth... ( not saying you always do or its smart, but you have the option to...)
its excelent ideas similar to this that made the dk class xD.... see chains of justice

Dude did you read I said PVE not pvp. We never use evis in PvE anyway, and in PvE it does take time to build up damage for mut.

[Ronark]

Dude did you read I said PVE not pvp. We never use evis in PvE anyway, and in PvE it does take time to build up damage for mut.

Re-spec/Duel spec?

[Ronark]

You want to give up all your damage for 8 seconds to apply your seal of vengeance stacks? This would only work well with multiple targets, as you are missing out on auto attacks and using instant attacks during the channel.

It could be improved via Talents/Glyphs, or made to do some upfront DoT damage while stacking the effect- 2% of AP and SP is terribly low (about 80 damage), make it 10% AP + 10% SP would bring it up more to about 500 damage each tick for 2k total damage.

[Gaudry]

You now know how it feels to be a a mutilate rogue, with the inability to switch targets well in pve.

Except that a mutilate rogue keeps snd when he switches targets and it takes only a few seconds to get 5 cp. Stop posting please...

[Munk]

Possible provlems i see is that 8 second "vamp up" time is too much for certain things like XT's heart. Other classes that rely on gaining stacks of a debuff (thinking of mage scorch) can be glyphed to apply all five in 1 shot, or in the case of warriors an ability can stack sunders on multiple targets or multiple stacks of sunders.

What we need is something similar.

Give it a long enough cd time that its worthless or at best situational in pvp and only good once per fight in pve, so in the case of the heart on xt you could gain your full damage quickly. In the case of yogg you could save it for getting a good brain phase and really push the dps.

Also losing Holy Wrath as it is now would make certain things like chow on gluth more difficult as its a very effecient way to give you breathing space or to keep the mobs locked down for aoe.

[Aarnor]

After looking at this thread I looked for similar ideas on the WoW forums and found http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...97256253&sid=1, just thought I'd throw another idea on here.

[lave]

The New Holy Wrath:

20% base mana
8 second cast (channeled) 15 second cooldown
8 yard raduis

making baseline spells not useable for certain specs is extremly bad design
prot could never use you HW since its channeled and just loose one very
good aoe burst aggro moves vs. undeads/demons

[Nikoll]

an a second channel doing so little damage wouldn't be a proper solution. I could probaly punch the mob to 5 stacks and do the same damage you do during that channel.

[Ronark]

making baseline spells not useable for certain specs is extremly bad design
prot could never use you HW since its channeled and just loose one very
good aoe burst aggro moves vs. undeads/demons

It could be minor-glyphed to return it to its current form.

Glyph of Holy Wrath
Use: Your Holy Wrath spell is now instant cast, but only deals [1050 + 0.07 * SPH + 0.07 * AP] to [1234 + 0.07 * SPH + 0.07 * AP] Holy damage while stunning all Undead and Demon targets within 10 yds for 3 sec.

[Whoopzz]

Shadow priests had this same problem in BC. In order to fix it, Blizz changed it from a stacking debuff on each individual target to a stacking buff on yourself. This would solve a LOT of problems with the current ramp up system, and we could change targets much easier. I could find this an acceptable compromise to the current system with the 15+ second ramp up.

One thing is for sure, I'd they don't change something then well be forced to use a different seal, as is it's garbage.

[Talen]

Yet another passive ability?

No. I dislike this.

Paladins need some sort of resource mechanic to disrupt burst. That'd be an ideal situation.

Failing that, Blizzard idea of a ramp up is a good one. Its just been implemented very badly here.

A combo builder of this sort should be an active skill. It shoudl also be low level and available to all. And it should benefit more than just ret.

One possible solution, albeit somewhat unimaginative, is to simply adapt the original system.

Consecrated Strike: Low damage Holy attack, applies a debuff increasing Holy damage by 10%.
Consecration: As now but applies the same debuff every tick.

Reduce damage across the board to compensate. And adjust figures for balance.

EJL

[themorre]

And here i was ready to trash yet another OP skill suggestion, but then woa this actually makes sense.
Almost never use HW except in naxx to give it a overhaul with a wider use its just excellent.
Giving the paladin more versitality and take abit more skill to play.

Make some tweaks to it and ill give it 5 outa 5 gnomes !

[Luthius]

Channelling for 8 secs is a bit too long imo.

What I really have in mind, since damn GC is comparing us to Druids and Rogues' combo points being so freakin' naive that Rogues & Druids build their 5 Combo Points really much faster than us.. is just to give us a Ret Talent or so, to make Vengeance/BloodCorruption stacks on only Special Moves like Judgement, CS, DS only (Not White Attacks) & after 5 stacks every White Attack/ability starts proccing the 33% weapon damage.

This would actually give us a standard rotation to build up the stacks in an ideal way with less than 12.5 secs it's like, the opener for every fight like a rotation of CS/DS/Judgement {would be defined better if was tested} to build up 5 stacks &then uh well you start the damn FCFS to dps.

It's a rough thought of frustration still, who knows maybe it'll make it in less than 12 secs or even more :/

Edit: More Clarification.