prot threat "too high" discussion

[deneweth]

I read a bliz quote about prot threat being too high and how they plan to address this now that they feel we are competitive for hard mode tanking. One change on the PTR is the touched by the light change to 60% of str is converted to spell power instead of 30% of stam. For me this will be a minor threat nerf, but the main threat nerf is righteous fury going from 90% to 80%.

I know pre-3.2 we were "faceroll" tanks because our set 969 rotation made it easy to hold very high threat without having to gear for threat. Now that our survivability is buffed bliz doesn't want us ignoring threat stats for effective health and/or avoidance. It feels like I have lower threat since the patch in part due to the ShoR change and in part due to my 3.1 gear choices for max stam and avoidance. I know the SoV mechanics were a threat gain but in 3.1 my threat was so good that I didn't really go out of my way for expertise or hit. I'm not saying my threat is too low, I know that I have to adjust to 3.2 and that might mean sacrificing some survival stats for threat stats.

When I hear "prot threat is too hight" I wonder if they mean the 53/18 optimum threat spec with hit and expertise cap, or if they mean all pallies. I know my threat has probably risen overall since 3.2, but its also more flakey/spikey than I would like, particularly at the start of fights. Is our single target too high, or aoe, or both? Is it our burst threat or sustained? Since the quote cited pulling of MTs accidentally I would assume they mean single target sustained.

I was wondering if fellow prot pallies could provide feedback on their threat vs. other class'. Hopefully bliz will see this and can adjust our threat in a balanced way. I agree that it is a serious problem if pally OTs are pulling off MTs, especially if its accidentally. Personally I can only pull off the MT at the start of fights if they get an unlucky miss or I get some lucky crits. I think part of the problem is that our optimum threat spec has a much higher crit than say a warrior tank.

I would love to hear from any other tanks too. How does your threat stack up? Since our threat is supposed to be more in line with yours, how big an issue is threat? What priority do you place on threat stats?

[Needonboots]

I've never focused on Block Value, and as such am not hitting diminishing returns. My threat went UP since the patch. I was doing about 5-6k TPS before, I'm now doing 7-8. The warriors/DKs in my guild are doing about 4K ish.

The 5% nerf we're getting isn't going to affect us in the slightest.

[arel00]

The 5% nerf we're getting isn't going to affect us in the slightest.

This.

Also, my guild's MT, a warrior, does at his best 8k TPS. I do 10k easily.

[Copain]

The problem I have with this, is I'm not a cookie cutter spec. I play the game to have fun and not to do the "Pro" spec and not have fun because I'm so focused on that. I hold threat well, and do ti well. But a lock in my guild has taken to throwing out all his Threat reductions for more damage, which will be an issue with this threat nerf.

[Styria]

The change from stam going to sp to str becoming sp has nothing to do with pve threat. they made this change so that prot paladins in holy gear could not outheal a holy paladin in holy gear in pvp.

aka, they nerfed prot healers, not prot tanks by making this change.

[Master Guns]

I do about 5k as a warrior, but it's an offspec/set of gear. I have about 44k HP raid buffed, i'm not expertise capped, I am hit capped though. I need to work on my expertise. I've *never* lost aggro to a DPS though. Few tanks out TPS me initially but they just know to back off for a few seconds. I have no issues otherwise.
But, I don't generally see anything wrong with pally threat TBH. It doesn't seem out of control. Sometimes I wonder where blizzard gets their numbers. =/

[Nillo]

I was wondering if fellow prot pallies could provide feedback on their threat vs. other class'. Hopefully bliz will see this and can adjust our threat in a balanced way. I agree that it is a serious problem if pally OTs are pulling off MTs, especially if its accidentally. Personally I can only pull off the MT at the start of fights if they get an unlucky miss or I get some lucky crits. I think part of the problem is that our optimum threat spec has a much higher crit than say a warrior tank.

Before patch I often pulled off the MT at Thorim even after the 2.-3. Taunt, right now this has become less of an issue, probably due to the buff to devestate, but I was still able to pull threat of the mt after my 2nd-3rd Shield Slam.
And afaik our crit chance is lower than that of a warrior because they have 15% crit chance on most threat abilities.

The change from stam going to sp to str becoming sp has nothing to do with pve threat. they made this change so that prot paladins in holy gear could not outheal a holy paladin in holy gear in pvp.

aka, they nerfed prot healers, not prot tanks by making this change.

They also nerfed Righteous Fury and switching to strength is a minor dps loss as well.

[Ronark]

The problem I have with this, is I'm not a cookie cutter spec. I play the game to have fun and not to do the "Pro" spec and not have fun because I'm so focused on that. I hold threat well, and do ti well. But a lock in my guild has taken to throwing out all his Threat reductions for more damage, which will be an issue with this threat nerf.

Depends on the number of Paladins in the raid.

[Iselian]

The problem I have with this, is I'm not a cookie cutter spec. I play the game to have fun and not to do the "Pro" spec and not have fun because I'm so focused on that. I hold threat well, and do ti well. But a lock in my guild has taken to throwing out all his Threat reductions for more damage, which will be an issue with this threat nerf.

The numbers were run on theorycrafting sites and just about any tankadin spec is doing well in this patch. The changes to Seal of Vengeance(/Corruption) helped Seals of the Pure and Reckoning quite a bit, helping them come up in line with Conviction and Crusade. Not quite up to the generic 53/18, but close. The end result is all tankadins who don't avoid every threat talent will do well, regardless of top "cookie cutter spec" or not.

I run 53/18, follow 96969, and push threat as hard as I can and I still find myself having problems with our very well-geared destruction warlock. Warlocks out of mechanics alone just have higher threat, it's going to happen. I think they receive a 10% reduction max (whereas most classes are 20-30% minimum). Just part of the game : /

[conaan]

on any non-double crusade benefit mobs, Sotp+reckoning combo is highest TPS, for double benefit crusade, conviction + crusade beats sotp+reckoning, though not a very large number (off the top of my head, around 100-200)

the threat change really isnt that big of a deal, if you start to have threat problems with this, i would recommend going from whatever enchant is on your gloves to armsman for some threat boost, that will make up for the small loss

[Ronark]

The numbers were run on theorycrafting sites and just about any tankadin spec is doing well in this patch. The changes to Seal of Vengeance(/Corruption) helped Seals of the Pure and Reckoning quite a bit, helping them come up in line with Conviction and Crusade. Not quite up to the generic 53/18, but close. The end result is all tankadins who don't avoid every threat talent will do well, regardless of top "cookie cutter spec" or not.

I run 53/18, follow 96969, and push threat as hard as I can and I still find myself having problems with our very well-geared destruction warlock. Warlocks out of mechanics alone just have higher threat, it's going to happen. I think they receive a 10% reduction max (whereas most classes are 20-30% minimum). Just part of the game : /

Most top-end Destro builds usually only take 1 talent in Destructive Reach, so they only have a 5% reduced threat generation and not 10%.

[Telant]

I think the issue is more that we are doing more damage now since the patch and as a result our tps increases as well. I am enjoying running pugs heroics atm to laugh at the fact that i am number 1 on the damage meters.
I recently got some new pieces that have increased my hit from around 100 to 180 and it has made a large difference to my threat in uld with an average of 5-6k tps and spiking towards 10k tps.

[arel00]

Anyway, remember it's not enough for a DPS to beat you on aggro, there is a threshold involved. Before a boss changes target, it requires a melee to reach 110% of the current target's (you, usually) threat, and 130% for a ranged.

In short, if you're pulling 8k TPS, the mentioned warlock has to do a steady 8000*1.3 = 10.4k DPS in order to turn the boss off you. If you're doing 10k TPS (I do :P) he will need to push 13k DPS to turn him.

That is *before* any aggro reducing talents he may have, and before you account for Hand of Salvation / Soulshatter and all similar skills.

[Sarcasm]

The problem I have with this, is I'm not a cookie cutter spec. I play the game to have fun and not to do the "Pro" spec and not have fun because I'm so focused on that. I hold threat well, and do ti well. But a lock in my guild has taken to throwing out all his Threat reductions for more damage, which will be an issue with this threat nerf.

I'm confused. How is a spec "fun"? How could you possibly have less fun in a cookie cutter spec? It's not like, while tanking a raid, you would think "this is much less fun than when I was 8/51/12" or whatever you are. If you're worried about someone pulling threat off you, you know an easy way to fix it.

[Ronark]

Anyway, remember it's not enough for a DPS to beat you on aggro, there is a threshold involved. Before a boss changes target, it requires a melee to reach 110% of the current target's (you, usually) threat, and 130% for a ranged.

In short, if you're pulling 8k TPS, the mentioned warlock has to do a steady 8000*1.3 = 10.4k DPS in order to turn the boss off you. If you're doing 10k TPS (I do :P) he will need to push 13k DPS to turn him.

That is *before* any aggro reducing talents he may have, and before you account for Hand of Salvation / Soulshatter and all similar skills.

There is also things that reduce aggro on the tank as well, i.e. Wind Buffet.... not that we see that move anytime in this era :P

[piratepete]

In a 200/213 tanking set with a scrubby AOE grinding talent build, my alt prot pally never had threat issues even with Ulduar geared raiders. That doesn't seem right.

On my Lock main, The difference between a Pally tanking and a Warrior tanking was really obvious, every time the Warr tanked I was hitting SS in the first 45 secs of the fight, which then means I have to go easy on DPS for about a minute (hovering just below his threat) until I was almost ready to SS again, and can start DPSing hard.

With the Pally tanking, I can spam right from the start and only blow SS when I get some serious dps buffs (hordir, IC etc).

[Kawaii]

The change from stam going to sp to str becoming sp has nothing to do with pve threat. they made this change so that prot paladins in holy gear could not outheal a holy paladin in holy gear in pvp.

aka, they nerfed prot healers, not prot tanks by making this change.

With 3309 stam and 1400 strength raidbuffed, I'm losing about 150~ spellpower. Sure, not a prot tank nerf at all, right?

[Elanale]

Oh. Prot threat too high. Right. I dropped one letter and thought this would be a thread about the difficulties of tanking while stoned, and frankly I'm disappointed.

[nwo]

With 3309 stam and 1400 strength raidbuffed, I'm losing about 150~ spellpower. Sure, not a prot tank nerf at all, right?

SP accounts for a very small amount of threat increase for prot. Sure, it is beneficial, but str/ap gives you more threat than SP.

[Astray]

Did the paladin need a nerf because it was too much imbalanced?
Probably not.

Can we deal with it?
Yes, we can.

So why the nerf?
Paladins were unable to do hardmodes because of their defense.
In a Min-Max Situation where every tank is roughly equal in defense, the one would be taken that offers the best threat.
So as a counter for being buffed more "roughly equal" in defenses, paladins are nerfed a bit more "roughly equal" in threat.
Sounds like a good deal to me.