Paladin new baseline abilities in Cataclysm

[Lumidar]

Also if we are counting Talents such as Feral charge as part of the distance closers / interupts, then we should count talents that reduce our Stun CD to less than 60 sec, or our talent that boost Judgement range. It really is not different either. Sure, you do not have + judge range as a ret/prot, but hell, not every Drid spec has them picking that up, let alone using it.

we are counting talents because of their spec. Druid's only Melee tree is feral and they can put 1 point into a distance closer/ ranged interrupt, so why wouldn't they. sure we can put 2 points in imp HoJ to make it 40sec CD but even when it was 20sec for Prot it'd just be trinketed out and then your next one is affected by diminishing returns.

what Chronalis is saying is that Paladins are the ONLY Tanking and Melee class that does not have a Baseline or Talent option to instantly close distance with your opponents. you end up constantly having to chase your targets and endlessly get kited when the HoF gets removed and you have to spam Cleanse every GCD and still get slowed for 0.5sec before the GCD is back up, which is enough for the enemy to gain even more distance between you.

so i'd rather get rid of Imp. HoJ and replace it with an actual distance closer talent if that's your argument.

[Vasti]

I hope we get a distance closer.

Warrior tanks can charge (or wahtever its called)
Druid tanks can charge

DK tanks can pull.
Pala tank need a pull.

Of course that brings us to: The holy chains of Vasti (cool name huh?)
Shares CD with Righteous Defense.
Works like Deathgrip, only real difference is the physical aspect

HOWEVER it should come with the glyph

Glyph of Vasti (again, great name huh?)
Your HCoV draws in an additional enemy within 8yards of the target, but increases your HCoV CD by 100%

[volcanis]

DUAL WiELD SHIELDS!!!!!

As for a gap closer...idk we grow some wings and leap far forward
Or it allows us to jump rly high for a period of time
Lol

[twinkleblur]

i want radiance like what eadric the pure has that thing is good enough for blizzard to never give pallys

[twinkleblur]

I just want an interupt/silence ability! Then I can die happy...'cuz liek seriously, we need one...bad.

we have 1 its just attached to another ability

[Copain]

we are counting talents because of their spec. Druids only Melee tree is feral and they can put 1 point into a distance closer/ ranged interrupt, so why wouldnt they. sure we can put 2 points in imp HoJ to make it 40sec CD but even when it was 20sec for Prot i\'d just be trinketed out and then your next one is affected by diminishing returns.

what Chronalis is saying is that Paladins are the ONLY Tanking and Melee class that does not have a Baseline or Talent option to instantly close distance with your opponents. you end up constantly having to chase your targets and endlessly get kited when the HoF gets removed and you have to spam Cleanse every GCD and still get slowed for 0.5sec before the GCD is back up, which is enough for the enemy to gain even more distance between you.

so id rather get rid of Imp. HoJ and replace it with an actual distance closer talent if thats your argument.

It changes from patch to patch and Expansion to Expansion. So regardless of what the current cookie cutter PVP spec is for Druids, I stand by my statement that if we count the Druid TALENT abilities, then we must count our Talents.

Paladin is also the only Plate Melee class with a large heal not on CD, and an instant full HP heal (We have been mentioning spells with CDs, so I will mention Lay on Hands). They are also the only ones with a debuff remover without a CD. They also have all their abilities from the start rather than needing to build up some type of bar to get their abilities.

You have to remember that a Pally is not limited to his Damaging attacks. If we were a two way hybrid, as in we could only Tank or DPS, Tank or Heal, Heal or DPS, then we would probably have more spells dedicated to pulling and such. But we are a three way hybrid, and that is just how it is.

[Lumidar]

i've thought of radiance as well but i'd actually like to see it integrated with the "holy chains" (sorry Vasti. lol)
even if you pull a target to you it's "blinded" for 3secs or so or until you hit them.


the ONLY problem i see with giving us a distance closer is Holy being able to use it so there would have to be a NASTY (...and i mean REALLY nasty) way to prevent Holy from taking advantage of this tool.

option 1)
shares cooldown with Holy Light, Flash of Light and Holy Shock where after you cast "Holy Chain" you can't cast those other healing spells for the 30sec that the chains are on cooldown. (pretty harsh for us Prot/Ret if we have to heal ourselves though, so...)

option 2)
gives you a 30sec Debuff after casting it where you can't cast Holy Light, Flash of Light or Holy Shock, but the debuff can be removed by Divine Shield. (and only divine shield. not HoP) so you can still heal yourself in an "oh shit" situation.


there could also be an added tooltip to Art of War which allows you to still use flash of light with the proc.

anyways these are just quick ideas i came up with in the past 10minutes so... grain of salt plz :P

[Ravasha]

Reckoning bomb.

[twinkleblur]

in all actuality i just want either A) consretion to move with me or? B) consretion to actually protect healers from casting a simple chain heal and gaining aggro from mobs who already ran though the crap.

[Ronark]

Not really. They have to talent into it, and it cost rage, which means they have to be fighting in bear form to get the rage (They have a skill to build rage that reduces armor IIRC though), and they do not normally fight in Bear form. Also it has a min and max range, so tehy gota fight people, then run away from them, then interupt.

So basically they have to Shift to bear form, attack their target (or get hit) then run away, then use the interupt. Not really a useful ability.

Take this into the field of battle and you will not use it unless you are just stalling for time (like in AV , you do not want someone to get a flag, neither of you kill eachother and it just drags on tell one of you gets bored).

And no, they really do not spend their time in Bear form most of the time.They shift to it to stall or live, but they will not go picking battles as a Bear and hope to kill someone within a reasonable amount of time.


To be fair we need to understand a bit about each class and the snares/interupts/snows/stuns/CC they use.

An Arcane mage has slow, a spammable snare which I agree is annoying. The downside being it can be removed by just about every type of remove magic/snare type ability. And as a Mage they WANT the target to be away from them, as they are very fragile (If you try to talk about how strong Iceblock is, then I never want to hear a complain about bubble again).

Hunters are another class that wants people away from them, and outside of the daze, they do not have much. The frost trap is avoidable and easy to freedom out of if you have that ready. They have the shot to keep people away from them, but it will not boost their speed. They have their aspect, which dazes them on contact, an engineer can shoot a handrocket to easily grab them. They have Disengage, which really has not proved any problem for me. Wing clip is a bit of a pain, but if they are in Melee range, that is time for you to land some hits. Also, as a physical range class, our plate shines, any time I die from them, it is a very slowww death.

Priest have Fears, not really any others I know of beside the fear. Which is just a fear on a CD that we can remove. They can Mind control you, but with limited range, removeable, and a cast time, I have yet to have a real problem with it.

Shamans have Earth bind, but it is something that has 5 HP and can easily be destroyed (or in far away situation, avoided), one can also use HoF to remove it. It also has a short time and has to pulse to renew it.

Warriors have charge, but not a lot of burst, and as with teh Druid charge, it has a min and max range, so it is not a reliable stun/Interupt, but it will close a gap.

The Lol grip is a bit on the cheap side, combine it with the chains of ice and it can hurt hard, but if WE get gripped, that just helps us attack them.

Rogues have their poisons, which they might not always use the slow move poision on their weapons. Sprint is a distance closer, which is a bit annoying since they can already stealth toclose distance while remaining safe (But to be fair, they typically do not bother stealthing for more than an opener, since damage breaks it). Deadly throw cannot count as a distance closer since they need combo points (Built from attacking with their skills, which are melee range) to use it.

No real Explanation for Warlocks, heh.



The Pally has something that prevents many skills from working (justice judge) which hurts people who are kiting/running (Druids, Rogues, Hunters to a point, Shamans, and so on), with a SLLLIGGGGHTTT (Not that useful, but it is there) passive speed boost to help get closer. They have a distance incapcitate, which can be removed via trinket, but that is like blowing a CD, which people have argued is a bad idea. Our stun interupts people too (Granted the interupt has less time than the stun, but there are rare times when someone trinkets out of the stun or is immune to a stun, and thus it helps).


Also if we are counting Talents such as Feral charge as part of the distance closers / interupts, then we should count talents that reduce our Stun CD to less than 60 sec, or our talent that boost Judgement range. It really is not different either. Sure, you do not have + judge range as a ret/prot, but hell, not every Drid spec has them picking that up, let alone using it.




I am not saying that Pallies are OP, not saying they are Under powered, not saying anything of the sort. I AM however, saying that saying we have nothing at all and that other classes can freely use theirs is a bad arguement.

A couple of things:

HoJ does not interrupt, period- What causes spells to stop casting against players is the actual stun component, NOT an interrupt component- This was fixed in 3.1 (I think?)

To use JoJ we need to already be in Melee range, which is the basis of the argument here- JoJ also does not prevent "teleportation" effects like Demonic Circle, Blink, Disengage, etc.

All classes can use an enchant for the same speed boost we can get- some classes (Rogues, DKs, etc) also have this same 15% speed boost available to them as well, ontop of thier other tricks.

That leaves only Repentance as our "distance closer", except that it *doesn't* close the gap but simply prevent it from getting wider.

[Ronark]

unkitable palidins kill everyone in melee...
here we go again...

We're very much kiteable, and arguabley still the most kitable of any class.

[Ronark]

doesnt your sarcasm-sense tingle even a little?

Sarcasm is hard to detect via a monotone forum board. Besides, it sounded more like whining, if anything.

[Fancyfeast]

To use JoJ we need to already be in Melee range

While I get your point, JoJ actually has a 10 yard range, not melee range.

[Deleted]

...

Kiteable? Really?

You got HoF which makes you immune to snares, and if you are smart you got PoJ. That means you can dispel snares and move at 115% speed.

Then you have HoJ and Repentance. Yeah ranged stoppers.

WOOT KITABLE LOL

[Ronark]

While I get your point, JoJ actually has a 10 yard range, not melee range.

10 yards vs. 5 yards- Still melee.

...

Kiteable? Really?

You got HoF which makes you immune to snares, and if you are smart you got PoJ. That means you can dispel snares and move at 115% speed.

Then you have HoJ and Repentance. Yeah ranged stoppers.

WOOT KITABLE LOL

HoJ is Melee.
HoF ISNT up 100% of the time and can be dispelled/stolen/purged.
EVERYONE can get PoJ in one way or another, read my earlier post.

Also, using CC as a way to close the distance is not smart.

WOOT TROLL LOL.

[Fancyfeast]

10 yards vs. 5 yards- Still melee.
HoJ is Melee.

Not really, if melee range is 5 yards and HoJ/JoJ are 10 yards, that means JoJ/HoJ =/= melee range.

[BoxofRox]

Looking at the TBC and WotLK abilities, it seems TBC was mainly aimed at Ret, while WotLK introduced mainly Prot abilities, sooo.. maybe it's Holy's turn to get something neat

Are you confused...? TBC was the basic introduction of Prot, while Ret wasn't good (special cases varying) until WotLK.

[volcanis]

...

Kiteable? Really?

You got HoF which makes you immune to snares, and if you are smart you got PoJ. That means you can dispel snares and move at 115% speed.

Then you have HoJ and Repentance. Yeah ranged stoppers.

WOOT KITABLE LOL

Cuz all snares are dispellable LOL
And hof can't be stolen or dispelled
And cuz u can still put out lots of dmg while spamming dispels through junk debuffs.

[Ronark]

Light Flurry
Instant Cast - 5% of base mana - 20 second cooldown
The paladin sends bolts of holy power in all directions dealing [1080 + 50% AP + 50% SP] to [1480 + 52.5% AP + 52.5% SP] holy damage or healing to all targets in 20 yards, and an additional 100% of the damage or healing done over 8 seconds. This also heals the Paladin for the same amount.

There we go, something everyone can use. An AoE Heal + Hot, an AoE Damage + DoT, and an awesome name.

How would you control for either healing or damage?

[Copain]

Are you confused...? TBC was the basic introduction of Prot, while Ret wasn't good (special cases varying) until WotLK.

Not exactly. Pre BC, Prot and Ret really did not exist (Save for builds based on certain mechanics, like building 1000 reckoning stacks and murdering somebody). In BC, Bliz allowed these to become Viable, but still planned mostly around the Paladin class being Holy. In Wrath, all three could do all of it well, which was when the Pally community sky rocketed in numbers.

A Reckoning bomb AoE would be awesome tbh (I love the reckoning bomb from the cannons on IC argent crusade event.) But I will agree that both ret and prot really need a way to close distance. Bear and warrior have charge, DK has death grip, we need something to help on that department. If we want something unique I'd suggest this: an ability that targets both an area and a mob. So you drop it somewhere like you would with say Blizzard while targeting a mob, and it pulls both you and the mob in that place, like a dueling challenge.

Do you... Know what a Reckoning Bomb is?