Lay on Hands (Merged)

[WorldTree]

no shaman healing spells grant mana to the target nor do they heal by percentage (much less 100%). pretty big difference. but i'd gladly let pallies use loh in arenas and on themselves if shaman could get bubbles also you're overlooking the need to get both of those cooldowns via talents, they're not doled out to every totem wielding shaman out there.

to elaborate more on your inquiry as to why this is being tested. i believe it's to prevent unintended use by holy pallies to gain mana and an unneeded extra survivability on demand button. i honestly see no reason to take it from ret specifically but if you take it from 2 specs, wouldn't be right to not take it from them all.

edit: small addition

/shrug... take out the mana about it, if you are so bend on the mana part.

Not like pallies are hurting on mana that much.

Not sure why you wants to compare the spells beyond its CD and heals.
It's on a 20 mins CD. Put your stupid shaman CD on 30 mins CD and I'll even agree to make it heal all your mana and hp.

Pally also don't chain heal, your point being?

No one is asking to use it in arena.

Now thinking about it some more, it's more like the self-revive skill of shaman. (although that can only use on self... but provide utility > LoH on raid wipes..)

besides, just use the shaman PoM and instant heal self.
Yeah, not as powerful, but doesn't takes 20 mins CD now does it?

[Tanksenior]

My space goat pally needs to cry now :'(.

On topic: Lame change imo, this is going to hurt pve pally's the most.

[Kalx]

this is going to hurt pve pally's the most.

you're kidding, right?
as ret, you don't need it on PvE
as holy, you won't cast it on yourself, which is intended
as prot, if you needed to cast it on yourself, it's your healer's fault

[Nynthalas]

Show me how strong you are pallys, yeasterdey u have 3 bars of life, normal, bubble, and LOH, now still have two of then, if blizz do this to ballance the classes and the pvp, AS PVE too, show how good pallyes are withouth LOH.

How many classes could full your health bar and gain some extra mana even 20 min ?

SHIT!

stop posting abaout this nerf.
Or pallys cry inside wow, or be a man and show how good you are in pvp.

[roflpot]

As a holy main / prot off pve and pvp Paladin I'm looking forward to this change. Sure it's a minor nerf for me when tanking pve content, but the happiness I will gain from fighting other palas in battlegrounds more than makes up for it.

I absolutely hate fighting rets in battleground on my other chars and they loh to full health from nothing, followed by a bubble and heal to full health from nothing. You basically have to kill them 3 times which is a horrible indication of how shit they actually are when their key abilities are a 6 second lolstun and their health bar x3.

[Simca]

Show me how strong you are pallys, yeasterdey u have 3 bars of life, normal, bubble, and LOH, now still have two of then, if blizz do this to ballance the classes and the pvp, AS PVE too, show how good pallyes are withouth LOH.

How many classes could full your health bar and gain some extra mana even 20 min ?

SHIT!

stop posting abaout this nerf.
Or pallys cry inside wow, or be a man and show how good you are in pvp.

Oh the humanity!

Also, stop bumping this freaking topic. GC already stated the nerf wasn't even intended to go to the PTR. It was a change they were toying with on their alpha realm and then decided against it.

[Relyk]

Only way it bothers me was an "oh shit" button while tanking. But i'm mainly healing, so it doesn't bother me that much. None of the 'nerfs' bother me that much, besides sacred shield and maybe soloing stuff.

[Slavemaker]

you're kidding, right?
as ret, you don't need it on PvE
as holy, you won't cast it on yourself, which is intended
as prot, if you needed to cast it on yourself, it's your healer's fault

I do believe the lay of hands "nerf" was because they wanted it to be used on other players instead of your self and that holy paladins were abusing the glyph, if you have the lay of hands glyph you will give yourself somewhere around 9k+ mana, meaning that even if a paladin was running oom (for some ungodly reason... damn int stacking paladins) then you have better than a mana potion on a 12? minute cooldown.

[Borigrad]

These are just bad nerf's. Why nerf sacred shield? yeah sure it was strong again melee but are we going by arena combat here? We know blizzard is less concerned with 2v2 then 3v3 and 5v5 so is your 3v3 and 5v5 filled with heavy melee? Even if that is true 2 or 3 people beating on a sacred shield it doesnt last long try SS in a BG you'll notice it doesnt matter(for very long.) So lets also assume these 3v3 or 5v5 have a ranged dps class, like most do. Sacred shield is junk against most ranged(who have common sense) it can be taken down in one big hit, hell frostbolt can take it down i can kill mine in a crusader strike. So no this nerf isn't justifyed the only place it honestly matters in 2v2 melee heavy team, or a cleave team. Which we know blizzard isn't to up in arms to defend. I didn't mention 1v1 cause really Instant FoL is good enough for that.

Lay on Hands? I guess this would be to stop people from solo tanking raid bosses(to a certain degree.) To all the people saying this is a arena nerf, you can't use it in arena to begin with so thats not valid. It's not a BG cause if you have to use it in a BG, odds are your still gonna die cause your taking a lot of damage from a lot of people. So this is solely a PvE nerf(imo.) But i don't get why, it's on a 20 minute cooldown if your healers are doing their job you shouldn't need it, All they have done is kill your tanks survivability. People should be mad that paladin tanks have lost an oh shit button. It's not a justifyed nerf(unless the bosses in ICC are gonna be doing so much damage LoH is absolutly needed)

Aura mastery... Yeah i said it was overpowered when it first came out so i don't care.

[rillak]

What a steaming pile of donkey bollocks.

[Kurotshuchi]

Good thing they changed it back for the next build

pls close this, there nothing to whine about anymore

[Vashta]

It just needs to stay as it is and then become a deep Prot balanced. Fixed for both PvE and PvP.

[Deaths]

This change has been planned for a very long time


http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_1.11_%2...Patch_Notes%29

thats an april fools thread ...

[KandyCane]

Lol at all of you.
"It has a 20min CD it should be OP"
QQ moar
If you played a pally before they were FoTM you would know that LoH used to have an hr CD and it took all of your remaining mana to cast.
I am glad they are doing this no more "Oh we are gonna take this prot pally over here instead of you because the healers can go afk and he still wont die".

Ouch... butthurt Warrior much?

EDIT2: Removed the rest of my post except for the above statement after reading what Ghostcrawler wrote. Even without Sacred Shield and Lay on Hands, I still see the Warrior I'm tanking with take tons of damage compared to myself. Really, they need some buffs.

Anyway, go read the link at the top of this page for Ghostcrawler's statement, and I think you'll find it to be very fair. Sure, it's a shame that we loose those defensive abilities, but you can't expect Blizzard to let you solo everything in this game.

[Arganaut]

Playing with changes this late in an xpac makes me cry. Wait until ICC has been done to death and Cata is a month away then play with the classes to your hearts content, break em for all I care, not when we are on the eve of our final battle vs the xpacs main enemy.

[NoHealsForYou]

What ever happened to pvp being balanced around 1v1? As far as I can see, this whole LoH change is done to stop Paladins being able to reset the fight in world, 1v1 pvp (each 20mins mind you). Even as a fix for bg's, it's a bit stupid. Balancing a class's icon ability which can only be used once per bg anyway?

Meh, bizzare.

[KandyCane]

that would be true, IF you guys didnt read what i post a few post up, you would know that blizz is not doing this sooo stop the qqing its not happening.

I was changing my post as you came with this statement, as I hadn't seen the link previously. I fully understand why they'd do it. Just came as a huge surprise as Lay on Hands is the most well-known Paladin ability after Divine Shield.

And really, you throw 'qq' around like there's no tomorrow. Stop it, please, it sounds absolutely terrible. Especially when used that much.

[Buffwhite]

I, too, am an altoholic and do not share your opinion at all. A ret paladin is not nearly as durable as this person is exaggerating. They do not have to be killed 'three' times. And in terms of fighting a tankadin, are you seriously kidding me? A prot paladin can not do enough damage to casters to compensate for the incredible amount of burst one can put out (seeing as the only thing they can soak with is their health pool) before a caster will, ultimately, kill them. At least any halfwit caster that has rudimentary understanding of kiting, anyway. And some times, even then.

Altoholic huh? Well, my friend, I guess we have something in common. If you truly believe Ret pallies are not as hard to kill as I say, then you must not do any BG'ing from levels 10-79. Most twinks are hunters/pallies/rogues (and probably dk's now too) Also warr, but usually only if he has a friend that will twink a healer with him. Why? Because melee and physical dps classes that have all insta cast damage skills faceroll at all levels. Pallies, however are the only class in the game that have instant heal back to full, and immunity (that allows attacking and healing) that no one can dispell until level 70. Seriously, roll anything while leveling against a decent geared pally that has all his cd's up and try to kill him. It is one of the most frustrating things you will ever do and you will avoid it at all costs after trying. This in itself, makes paladins be able to survive much longer in BG's and World PvP because no one WANTS to target them. It's just too annoying.

I know it's on a 20 min cd, but with the number of paladins one encounters in BG's nowadays, it's very easy to see LoH used 4 or 5 times in a BG of someone you are directly engaging in combat with.

I'm still waiting for the removal of
-Bloodlust/Heroism
-Army of the Dead
-Soul Stone
-Tranquility
-Reincarnation

If they change LoH for Rated Bgs, I want these "staple" abilities changed for PvP totally as well.

(Edit -->) Changed what I said about Bloodlust/Heroism since you were referring to PvP. (<-- Edit) Army of the Dead I could care less about. Soul Stone and Reincarnation? Well, Reincarnation is 20% health and mana on a 1 hour cd. Please don't compare the two. Soul Stone is slightly better on cd (I think it's a half hour) and gives you 5300 health and 4200 mana at max level (hardly a full refund of mana or health). Tranquility can be stopped by any cc. Silence, fear, incapacitate, stun, charm, poly (if not in tree form), charm (I think), interrupt, disorient, death grip and cyclone. Forgive me if I missed one.

And idk about you, but I rarely see locks and shams ankhing/soulstoning in any encounter besides PvE. I have a sham and have only used ankh a max of 4 times to try and kill someone that just killed me (you're basically dead again if u dont kill them within 1-2 gcd's). I see Pallies using LoH all the time though.

@ Ret pvp nerf idiots.... nobody cares about bg's or world pvp. It was not a ret nerf. You guys are retarded.

It is ok, we have 2 prot pallys they can just use it on eachother...

Again, more people care about BG's than you admit. Why do you think Blizzard is implementing rated BG's? Because no one cares? And yes, it was a ret nerf. Just because it nerfed prot pallies more doesn't mean it didn't nerf ret at all, because it did. Ret will be the spec of 99% of pallies you run into while leveling in BG's. And I see that it's been reverted back anyway, so I guess you guys will be getting a nerf in some other area.

[TheeZ]

I must say:
The changes they've posted so far (they may not be exactly like this but still) are retarded.
Sacred Shield was good for mitigation.
Lay on Hands was a "O SHIT" button, can't be used on thyself? Wtf is up with that, that's too dumb for words.
If they wanted to balance PvP, they can just make the spell unavailable for PvP, Lay on Hands is a great Pally spell, for tanking aswell as Holy and Ret, because you can not only save yourself but others with it aswell, If you're tanking and the boss is almost dead, and so are your healers, you still have that back-up, to grant your DPS extra time.
Not to mention that Lay on Hands can't be used in Arena (which is good, because there it'd REALLY be over-powered.

I hope none of these changes hit live (Sacred shield and Lay on Hands) because that would make the Paladin Class one less class that can save people.

[Keile]

This change likely will not go through to live, GC already said that much. There is likely to be some sort of change to LoH though to balance the fact that it is literally an extra life if used properly. They will probably reduce the amount that it heals you...or bring back the old DRAINS 100% MANA deal.