I like where they are going with these changes.

[shockpally]

Sacred shield is a crutch for Ret in PVP. It's too overpowered when used in combination with Resil. gear.

Lay on hands while not usable in Arena is still way better than anything any other class has for PVP. Making it usable only on other players won't hurt Holy all that much since they mainly use it on other people anyway.

With that being said i think they should go one or two steps further with these changes.

Make LOH a talent choice. Change the IMP LOH talent in the holy tree to be the spell. Put the Improved version down the talent tree further somewhere around the 40 pt range.

Keep Divine Guardian the same and put a linked talent deeper in Prot to increase the amount of damage absorbed by SS to 120%-150% of Spell power.

Finally, Remove the healing buffs from Touched by the light and Sheath of light. Protection and Ret paladin already have access to baseline healing spells. There is no need to augment them for non healers.

If you want better healing abilities. Dual spec.

[Niroshi]

LoH is as much a Tanking ability as it is a Holy ability, most Tankadins have used this spell over the course of their careers to save their asses, and their raids, from a potential wipe. Moving it into Holy (the tree that needs it the least) is just silly. No tank is going to want to go that far into Holy to pick up what used to be a baseline spell. Not to mention GC already stated that the change to LoH won't be going through, it wasn't even intended to make it to the PTR.

The second suggestion 'could' work, but generally the 30s ICD on SS probably won't stay either. I could see your version of SS being used as a sort of "Shield Block" spell though. In that it would be useful.

You seem to have missed the point of initially giving Ret/Prot healing buffs, Blizzard doesn't want either spec to not be able to heal at all, they just don't want them to be amazing at it. The talents really don't need changed.

[shockpally]

LoH is as much a Tanking ability as it is a Holy ability, most Tankadins have used this spell over the course of their careers to save their asses, and their raids, from a potential wipe. Moving it into Holy (the tree that needs it the least) is just silly. No tank is going to want to go that far into Holy to pick up what used to be a baseline spell. Not to mention GC already stated that the change to LoH won't be going through, it wasn't even intended to make it to the PTR.

The second suggestion 'could' work, but generally the 30s ICD on SS probably won't stay either. I could see your version of SS being used as a sort of "Shield Block" spell though. In that it would be useful.

You seem to have missed the point of initially giving Ret/Prot healing buffs, Blizzard doesn't want either spec to not be able to heal at all, they just don't want them to be amazing at it. The talents really don't need changed.

The amazing amount of Spell power Prot and Ret get for a mere 3 talent points enables them to heal effectively enough for NOT BEING HEALERS. Throw in an instant cast FoL from AoW proc (which procs a lot) and Ret has all it needs. Add in JoL and they usually dont ever need to actually cast a spell.

A longer duration SS that absorbs more damage is inline with Prots needs more than being able to self heal 100% instantly when in any PVE group content they should have a healer backing them up and if they let the healer die that is their own fault and frankly just part of the game.

Prot and Ret have been spoiled way too much with the availability of abilities they really dont deserve and should have never been given in the first place.

[Ronark]

Prot and Ret have been spoiled way too much with the availability of abilities they really dont deserve and should have never been given in the first place.

Because no Balance Druid, Elemental/Enchance shaman, or Shadow Priest can heal.

:

[Critterbot]

Finally, Remove the healing buffs from Touched by the light and Sheath of light.

you can't be serious

[Lebeau]

Honestly, sometimes I think the OP is just someone who gets his jollies off saying the most nonsensical things.

[shockpally]

Because no Balance Druid, Elemental/Enchance shaman, or Shadow Priest can heal.

:

I never said "dont let Prot and ret use baseline HL and FoL" The other classes with healing trees pay a significant efficiency cost to use the healing spells they have access to.

Balance druids dont get better healing or talented healing spells
Elemental/Enh shaman dont get improved healing totems or spells and Enh has to get a 5 stack of Mailstom weapons to cast any thing instant. All ret has to do is get a AoW proc.
Shadow priest can heal when not in shadow form just as well as Balance druids or Ele/Enh shaman.

Prot and Ret paladin still have access to HL and FoL and all they really need to do is switch gear to get more mana to sustain some sort of Healing viability.

What did Holy get in the way of Hybrid ability? 200 more "damage" not DPS for 10 talent points and still no spamable damage spell like any of the other healing classes get baseline and at early levels.

Spreading Healing talents to Prot and Ret has only undermined Holy as "The Healing Tree". It's time every one realized that.

[Switchshot]

Sacred shield is a crutch for Ret in PVP. It's too overpowered when used in combination with Resil. gear.

Lay on hands while not usable in Arena is still way better than anything any other class has for PVP. Making it usable only on other players won't hurt Holy all that much since they mainly use it on other people anyway.

With that being said i think they should go one or two steps further with these changes.

Make LOH a talent choice. Change the IMP LOH talent in the holy tree to be the spell. Put the Improved version down the talent tree further somewhere around the 40 pt range.

Keep Divine Guardian the same and put a linked talent deeper in Prot to increase the amount of damage absorbed by SS to 120%-150% of Spell power.

Finally, Remove the healing buffs from Touched by the light and Sheath of light. Protection and Ret paladin already have access to baseline healing spells. There is no need to augment them for non healers.

If you want better healing abilities. Dual spec.

Shut up

[Tenken]

I agree with the OP on most counts. Its not really worth comparing to Spriest or elementals; pally healing was to the point that the Prot and Ret were nearly as good at healing as Holy! If not better in some circumstances *prot healers in arena*.
On the same note, I dont think these changes were needed in the PvE community.

[Narit]

Prot and Ret paladin still have access to HL and FoL and all they really need to do is switch gear to get more mana to sustain some sort of Healing viability.

your right since i can switch gear mid fight/arena! o wait...

[shockpally]

your right since i can switch gear mid fight/arena! o wait...

It's your choice to run an all dps team. You really dont have the right to complain about an active choice YOU made.

Even in Prot or Ret gear paladin still have the available spell power to cast a meaningful healing spell. You just dont deserve anything extra since you are not healing speced.

[Ronark]

It's your choice to run an all dps team. You really dont have the right to complain about an active choice YOU made.

Even in Prot or Ret gear paladin still have the available spell power to cast a meaningful healing spell. You just dont deserve anything extra since you are not healing speced.

Sounds like "Roll Holy like me if you want to heal!" gimmick.

[jester.exe]

Ret should've never been able to have a spammable Sacred Shield in the first place. It'd be like if warriors could stay in Battle/Zerker with a 2hander and use shield block. Ret's are too good at absorbing damage (bubble-heal to full is another problem).

Ret damage is on-par with other classes damage, but their effective health is enormous thanks to their heals.

Also, Balance/Ferals have to shift out to heal, which can be danagerous and invokes GCDs. Pallies don't. Shammies are just not as good at healing (I'm not very familiar with them, but I'm quite certain they don't get free LHW's as Enhance.

[Ronark]

Ret should've never been able to have a spammable Sacred Shield in the first place. It'd be like if warriors could stay in Battle/Zerker with a 2hander and use shield block. Ret's are too good at absorbing damage (bubble-heal to full is another problem).

SS only absorbs a minuscule amount of damage- Besides, we are called a defensive hybrid for a reason.

[Narit]

It's your choice to run an all dps team. You really dont have the right to complain about an active choice YOU made.

Even in Prot or Ret gear paladin still have the available spell power to cast a meaningful healing spell. You just dont deserve anything extra since you are not healing speced.

i wasnt complaining? And im not sure where u got the idea i was doing a full dps team in arena anyway.

And yes i can cast a big heal maybe up to 3 times? Big deal?

[Niroshi]

I agree with the OP on most counts. Its not really worth comparing to Spriest or elementals; pally healing was to the point that the Prot and Ret were nearly as good at healing as Holy! If not better in some circumstances *prot healers in arena*.
On the same note, I dont think these changes were needed in the PvE community.

You're ignoring that they were wearing Holy gear while doing this, why the hell wouldn't they heal almost as well as Holy in Holy gear? Throw Resto gear on an Elemental Shaman and you'll get just as much, or Enhancement even. The talents don't need to be changed, neither of them are game breaking in any way.

Ret should've never been able to have a spammable Sacred Shield in the first place. It'd be like if warriors could stay in Battle/Zerker with a 2hander and use shield block. Ret's are too good at absorbing damage (bubble-heal to full is another problem).

Why do I get the sense that the only reason you now have an issue with SS is because Blizzard is thinking of changing it? I'm getting the sense that people on WoW forums, either the official or fansite forums, are most like sharks now.

[Alenko]

Sacred shield is a crutch for Ret in PVP. It's too overpowered when used in combination with Resil. gear.
Purge more

Lay on hands while not usable in Arena is still way better than anything any other class has for PVP. Making it usable only on other players won't hurt Holy all that much since they mainly use it on other people anyway.
ummm cuase bgs and duals matter amirite?

With that being said i think they should go one or two steps further with these changes.

Make LOH a talent choice. Change the IMP LOH talent in the holy tree to be the spell. Put the Improved version down the talent tree further somewhere around the 40 pt range.
wich would clutter up the holy tree with more stuff I wouldn't spec into (such as chance to reduce inc dmg by 50%, imp cleanse etc) so how about no to that one too

Keep Divine Guardian the same and put a linked talent deeper in Prot to increase the amount of damage absorbed by SS to 120%-150% of Spell power.
1) most prot pallies don't take the imp SS talent anywas seeing as how 2) a holy pally is usually present to put SS on you and their SS is infinitely better than a prot pallies. this change would also just cltter the prot tree similar to the holy tree and isn't the kinda thing blizz is looking to do with talents in the future (ie talents being "fun" not just "increase x spells effect by y%"

Finally, Remove the healing buffs from Touched by the light and Sheath of light. Protection and Ret paladin already have access to baseline healing spells. There is no need to augment them for non healers.
and this is where you lose the last shred of credibilit you had, without these talents you kill (as in from gimp to dead) the survivabiit of a ret pally in any pvp outlet

If you want better healing abilities. Dual spec.
cuase I can totally respec/change gear mid fight......oh wait

[jester.exe]

SS only absorbs a minuscule amount of damage- Besides, we are called a defensive hybrid for a reason.

Defensive hybrids shouldn't be doing dps comparable to rogues or hunters or DKs in arenas.

You might say, "but ret doesn't do that much damage!" The fact Crusader Strike needed its burst nerfed is proof rets are very bursty (that and the entire community hates you for being so bursty).

TL;DR: Rets are just as bursty as any other dps class, but with ridiculous self-heals and utility. They dominate BGs simply because they can heal themselves, in or out of combat. They're at no disadvantage in arenas, and are among the most powerful classes there. You can't call yourself a defensive hybrid and then go and roll-face to top dps in an arena.

[shockpally]

i wasnt complaining? And im not sure where u got the idea i was doing a full dps team in arena anyway.

And yes i can cast a big heal maybe up to 3 times? Big deal?

Then Why would you even bring up not being able to change gear Mid fight/Arena?

It isnt like a Healing speced Paladin has the ability to do it and you dont. Although a dps speced paladin has the ability to heal and a Holy paladin doesnt have the ability to do any significant amount of damage.

And BTW.. If you dont protect your healer you dont have the right to complain either.

[kakefarmer]

Lay on hands while not usable in Arena is still way better than anything any other class has for PVP. Making it usable only on other players won't hurt Holy all that much since they mainly use it on other people anyway.

Do u even have the slightest idea what u are talking about? o.O
1) LoH restores mana to target
2) Fully glyphed, it restores double the mana and gives u an equal amount of mana that it gave ur target.
Taking this into account, let's say ur fighting a boss that your guild is struggling to take down.
Ur oom, boss has 30% HP left, ur the MT healer. What the hell do u do????
Consider the situation. If everything looks good, u target urself, pop LoH. INSTANT 8K-ish mana. Pop Arcane torrent (from a BE perspective) and use a mana pot.

Wait, what just happened?
U just earned 14k mana in an instant and u can heal again, thus possibly saving a wipe...

LoH will probably be off CD when the next try starts, seeing as if u glyph it (which all specs do, seeing it's a minor...) u get a 5 min reduced CD + a holy talent giving u 4 min extra off the CD.

Research holy pallies before u talk dude...

EDIT: Oh, and for the PvP perspective. Since it can't be used in arenas, why waste it on ONE DPS PvPer, when u can save ur own ass, get mana AND save lot's of other DPS PvPers?