Seal of Command vs Seal of Vengeance for protection paladins

[Puri]

Of course SoC also hits you current target. And although it doesn't proc off HotR, it still benefits greatly from reckoning. It's no doubt the best seal to tank heroics, to tank trashpacks in raids, and to dps in prot spec (questing etc.). Since it deals quite a large amount of instant holy dmg without the need to stack it up, it's a major buff to your ae threat and makes consec in heros quite obsolete.
And you can even glyph it, to get some extra mana (which is quite usefull until you get enough block gear for heroic instances and to do quests when your second spec isn't ret).

For sure it's quite useless if you're maintanking single raidbosses.

[xstratax]

Unless MSBT is wrong (and it may be), SoComm does proc off of HotR, and each "bounce" of HotR, as it has said I get upwards of 16 SoComm hits off a Glyphed HotR on 4 targets. But as I said MSBT could be wrong.

[torny]

Who cares about aggro... you keep it with both seals... The dps you get with SoC however... :Q

[NotValidAnymore]

If it allows me to keep aggro against insanely geared DPS in heroics then I'll gladly spec it. It's so frustrating to not get aggro on heroic trash because DPS are impatient and I have cooldowns. :-\

[Fujiama]

If it allows me to keep aggro against insanely geared DPS in heroics then I'll gladly spec it. It's so frustrating to not get aggro on heroic trash because DPS are impatient and I have cooldowns. :-\

Then I can definetly recommend getting Seal of Cleave. It's just.. Insane AoE threat in heroics. I use it all the time, and it rocks.

Mind you, I only tank heroics on my paladin, haven't tried it out in raids. It's just an alt to farm frost emblems on which I can buy Primordial Saronite for = money :P

[Aedh]

It's an increase to burst aoe threat, which we don't need.

If I could spare a useless point in my spec I'd take it, like 1/2 SA instead of 2/2, then again I'd fill up crusade further first

How can you say we don't need more burst threat?

[tlitd]

Unless MSBT is wrong (and it may be), SoComm does proc off of HotR, and each "bounce" of HotR, as it has said I get upwards of 16 SoComm hits off a Glyphed HotR on 4 targets. But as I said MSBT could be wrong.

The cleave effect of SoComm is active only when :
- the trigger connects
- the trigger is a single-target ability
- the targets are in range of the cleave (~8 yds, no more than 10)

The conditions are verified sequentially.

[Alshar]

I've been specced in SoCleave since it was changed in my prot spec. It absolutely owns on trash, even if its one or two mobs. Most trash doesn't live for 5 stacks of SoV in a heroic, so SoC will give you higher threat, faster then a SoV. in ICC? OMFG! The initial trash packs before Marrowgar had me at 12k DPS Sustained! Sure, I'm a tank, who cares about DPS right? Tell me that with two rets with 2p tier 10 in your raid, and feral berserk/swipe spamming etc. That burst threat is AMAZING. SoC is worth dropping a point in Conviction for, especially since the math says that Conviction is our lowest TPS stat point for point. 1% crit vs massive aoe threat gains? I know my choice sirs.

[fl4shi]

...
SoC has this incredible burst threat, making it worth chaning to on boss fights like the 2nd in nexus (change when split arrives). 1 hammer, and you got em all on you. Ofc, change back after merge.
...
Btw, my dps went sky high with SoC in heroics if theres enuogh aoe (tried it in nexus) i run with about 4k dps... my GS is like 5.5, might have a little to do with that... anyways, i would surely recommend this for tanking, especially heroics..! and its 1 talent build, who cares if you lose 1% crit

for bosses like 2nd nexus i just use SoC all the way... you shouldnt have any aggro probs
and chainging for like 5 secs is to much of a hassle

4k overall or what?

since i have only 5.1 gs and i have 5-6k dps (hdz4) (trashfights only.. bossfights its like 3k so 4k overall could be right)

now the maintankadin one

...Now, for some example situations:

* Heroics - trash dies in 10-15 seconds, so Seal of Command will easily be the winner. This is how we get 5k+ damage parses on recount for trash packs. Switch back to SoV for bosses though.
* Onyxia whelps - If done properly, these things die quickly, and with many whelps snap aggro is important. Seal of Cleave all the way.
* ICC trash - The trash packs of 4 skeletons would seem like a good place for SoCom, and it's certainly the better choice for snap aggro. But those mobs have a lot of hit points, and can easily live for 30+ seconds. If your group's DPS takes less than 30-40 seconds to kill the pack, then go with SoCom, otherwise use SoV and tab target. If you group up all 8 mobs and AoE them down, just use SoCom.
* Gunship adds - SoCom, even with a 5-stack SoV is only barely ahead, and snap aggro matters here.
* Deathwhisper adds - Again I'd use Seal of Command, as they die quickly and snap aggro is important...

Regarding ICC:
Generally speaking SoC all the way
Only Bosses -> SoV
everything else -> SoC

Yesterday i was 2nd/3rd in dmg for ICC Trash
dps wise maybe 6th
had 9k dps with SoC ofc (25man)
while i had 8k with my Previous spec and SoV (10man) so no idea if SoV is better for trash before Mallowgar
(im tabbing all the way through every mob with SoV and SoC)

(ps: in 25man other 2 tanks = 1 pally 1 warri.. other pally had like 4-5k dps with SoV i guess no idea)
(in 10man other tank was blooddk no idea what his dps was.. he stopped tanking the trash since he never had anything to tank to begin.. i started to tank ofc else he might had 1-2 mobs to tank)

Unless MSBT is wrong (and it may be), SoComm does proc off of HotR, and each "bounce" of HotR, as it has said I get upwards of 16 SoComm hits off a Glyphed HotR on 4 targets. But as I said MSBT could be wrong.

could be a bug
never saw that
check if you set the spamming to something like 2sec
could be that the 16 hits are
2 autohits (1x double hit hence 9targets)+ HotR(4targets) SoR (3 targets) and MSBT just waits before posting the dmg so your not spammed

i have a real bug with my frost dk dual wielding
sometimes i get double hits with HB (the offhand proc isnt intended to proc for HB)

so could be a bug as well with SoC proccing from HotR (its not intended)

[tjanson]

I would also like to point out that for heroics, if you're running Seal of Command the Glyph of Command is very nice. Especially if you're lazy like me and occasionally forget to keep Divine Plea up. I keep a few of each glyph in case I need to tank anything strenuous(not often, because I'm usually holy and we have soooo many tanks in the guild).

I usually run Command for most trash pulls and then swap to Corruption for bosses or high HP trash mobs. It works fairly well, and is well worth the 1% crit I lost to pick it up.

[Calon]

I used to run SoV in heroics with my custom threat spec, I recently reworked it to include SoC. I noticed a very, very notable increase in DPS while doing trash.

While running SoV on heroic trash I used to get 2,000-2,500 DPS, with SoC I get 3,500-4,500 DPS.

I still use SoV for bosses, no question asked, it's superior for single target TPS and DPS. But SoC is unmatched in aoe threat and damage.

[enbee]

How can you say we don't need more burst threat?

Ah you think we do?

[enbee]

I use MSBT but i don't use that glyph. I've not seen anything like that, but i do see "6 hits 1 crit" with it quite often, but i'm gonna go check it out.
Here's what i got;
This was on the level 60 dummies in Orgrimmar since they're the most grouped. So we've got HotR hitting 3 targets, and it seems to chain SoComm to 6 targets, which indicated that the target that HotR hits isn't hit with a SoComm proc, but the other targets are infact hit by it. It also seems to be able to chain back on targets that HotR hit, and i also noticed it hit the dummy that HotR didn't hit.

I currently use Hellscream Slicer from Anub-25 as my threat weapon, simply because it takes my damage range to 1124-1463 self-buffed as opposed to sub-1K top end with other weapons.

I tested with Thunderfury, and unfortunately, the proc from that doesn't proc SoComm (shame since that'd be another 6-8 procs). However, it DOES proc from ShoR and Judgement, but not AS or Exo or HoR.

However, the results are there that SoComm is fairly formidable. Had SoComm been this way in TBC, it would have been legendary for Hyjal. You need to remember that each procs can crit, and in ICC trash, i usually see at least one per chain, and more when i use HotR.

Ah, I wasn't aware it procced off HoR, afaik(new) it was made so it didn't proc off any aoe's.

This is making me reconsider..

[Evilmoo]

SoV for boss fights.

[Simca]

There is a break point when which seal is better than the other.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...wtopic#p522485

Maths are funs?

Awesome forum and forum post, btw. Thanks for the link, very interesting stuff.

Summary:
Drop one point from Conviction for Seal of Command because Conviction is nearly worthless and Command is useful in several Icecrown fights.

[Varius]

I use MSBT but i don't use that glyph. I've not seen anything like that, but i do see "6 hits 1 crit" with it quite often, but i'm gonna go check it out.
Here's what i got;
This was on the level 60 dummies in Orgrimmar since they're the most grouped. So we've got HotR hitting 3 targets, and it seems to chain SoComm to 6 targets, which indicated that the target that HotR hits isn't hit with a SoComm proc, but the other targets are infact hit by it. It also seems to be able to chain back on targets that HotR hit, and i also noticed it hit the dummy that HotR didn't hit.

I currently use Hellscream Slicer from Anub-25 as my threat weapon, simply because it takes my damage range to 1124-1463 self-buffed as opposed to sub-1K top end with other weapons.

I tested with Thunderfury, and unfortunately, the proc from that doesn't proc SoComm (shame since that'd be another 6-8 procs). However, it DOES proc from ShoR and Judgement, but not AS or Exo or HoR.

However, the results are there that SoComm is fairly formidable. Had SoComm been this way in TBC, it would have been legendary for Hyjal. You need to remember that each procs can crit, and in ICC trash, i usually see at least one per chain, and more when i use HotR.

Chronalis that looks like 3 SoC single procs off each hit of HotR then one single cleave from one of the hits, so unless there is a hidden auto swing somewhere in there so it sounds like when you cast HotR it hits 3 (or 4 with glyph) mobs procs a singular SoC damage on each target hit, and SoC procs once for the cleave effect. So every HotR cast is 6-7 procs of Command's holy damage.

[Needonboots]

All I know is, when we're stood in front of Marrowgar and I'm in the top 2 on Recount as a tank, something's going super right 5-6.5k average DPS with SoComm, only around 4-5 with Vengeance.

Being a paladin is fun <3

[Astray]

5,5k dps on normal average heroic trash, hell yeah!

[Yasuu]

It does have a place in trash tanking, and is the AoE seal of choice for tanking. It does single-target damage on each HotR hit, as well as chaining damage on each melee swing. I believe in my testing it also procced on ShoR as well.

It's absolutely legendary for those AoE packs in Icecrown (Trash before Marrowgar, the Val'kyr that spawn adds, etc).

Actually I believe that Vengeance is better if mobs live for > 14 seconds or something. Read it somewhere on these forums, maybe.

Anyway,

SoC is AWESOME in heroics. I use it on my paladin and I do about 3k+ DPS (up to 4.5k) on a decent size trash pack. Threat is also not a problem.

So basically:
1. Your threat is fine
2. You speed up the run by doing pretty good DPS
3. ???*
4. Profit*

* = mandatory

[Requital]

For Heroics and Trash Rep farming Seal of Command all the way, In Heroics you will be top damage and DPS just watch the DPS squirm as you pull 5-6K DPS on bosses and 6-7K on trash. I laugh when I spec Command and tank people get so bent out of shape when the tank beats them.