Prot Pally *Edited*

[Nillo]

Raid spec:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZA0x...fdtsMobc:pG0cm

Why did you drop Divine Guardian to pick up Divinity? -.-

Set equations equal to one another:
(1 - TSR*0.85)100 = (1 - TSR)101

Solve for TSR (time spent running):
(1 - TSR*0.85)100 = (1 - TSR)101
1 - TSR*0.85 = (1 - TSR)1.01
0.99009 - 0.84158*TSR = 1 - TSR
0.00991 = 0.15842*TSR
TSR = 0.00991/0.15842
TSR = 0.0625

Time spent running is 6.25% of the fight. That's a trivial number and basically translates to "any fight with movement, period" in average Joe terms.

I really don't think using TPS as a number is a good idea here:
=> You're doing 0 TPS if you're not close enough to the target
=> You can still attack while moving
=> TPS is usually wasted anyway
=> Crit is still unrealiable (you need to be able to stay ahead without a single crit), while movementspeed is realiable

[markinthedark]

I really don't think using TPS as a number is a good idea here:...

...Crit is still unrealiable (you need to be able to stay ahead without a single crit), while movementspeed is realiable

There is a lot going on in that post so it's easy to miss but he was using TSR as "time spent running" also it was an arguement for PoJ over Conviction points if I'm not mistaken


Edit: quote added for clarity

Current movement fights include:
Marrowgar
Deathwhisper
Gunship
Rotface
Putricide
Blood Princes
Blood Queen

So, 7/9 fights it's worth it.

EDIT: This analysis doesn't include tangential benefits like "getting out of the fire faster" and "being in range for a taunt when you really need to". But the fact that any movement is justification enough to take the talent more or less eliminates the need for anecdotal evidence.

[Offhand]

I really don't think using TPS as a number is a good idea here:
=> You're doing 0 TPS if you're not close enough to the target
=> You can still attack while moving
=> TPS is usually wasted anyway
=> Crit is still unrealiable (you need to be able to stay ahead without a single crit), while movementspeed is realiable

I think you miss the point. Your post seems to more or less agree with my analysis but discard the reasons as to why.
1) This is the basis for my math. It's also directly in conflict with what you say in point two. A tank with 2% extra crit will do roughly 101% of the threat of a tank without it, we need to assume all else is equal.
2) You only have limited access on what and how you're attacking while moving. Things can move off consecrate after 1-2 ticks, etc. On a fight like Putricide, you'll be moving but attacking the boss the majority of the time, this cheapens the value of PoJ somewhat (but at the same time, no one is hurting for threat because of the constant target switching). Your choices are "threat more" vs "be in place a little bit faster" and neither is really essential for the fight.
3) TPS is never wasted, you may want to qualify that better because saying TPS talents have no value means I should drop one-handed weapon spec and touched by the light in favor of divinity.
4) "Crit is unreliable" also deserves qualification. On any given fight, you make hundred of attacks that are subject to crits against a boss. This means a gain in 1% crit should be noticeable in a breakdown like World of Logs/WWS/etc. No one relies on a crit during the pull or after an aggro drop. You should taunt and hit high threat-per-execute moves instead.

If you can model it better by all means go for it but I'll stand by my analysis until proven otherwise. See the edit in my last post about anecdotal evidence being largely irrelevant.

[Ronark]

4) "Crit is unreliable" also deserves qualification. On any given fight, you make hundred of attacks that are subject to crits against a boss. This means a gain in 1% crit should be noticeable in a breakdown like World of Logs/WWS/etc. No one relies on a crit during the pull or after an aggro drop. You should taunt and hit high threat-per-execute moves instead.

If you can model it better by all means go for it but I'll stand by my analysis until proven otherwise. See the edit in my last post about anecdotal evidence being largely irrelevant.

Point 4 brings up another good point, in that you gain a much higher value from crit when going from 10 to 11% crit than you do from going from a higher value, such as 44 to 45% crit- In terms of TPS, I see crit as basically adding more sustained TPS, since as you mentioned you don't rely on that crit for initial aggro.

[Nillo]

If you can model it better by all means go for it but I'll stand by my analysis until proven otherwise. See the edit in my last post about anecdotal evidence being largely irrelevant.

What I wanted to say, that it's hard or even impossible to model, because TSR or TPS or DPS don't really matter, when comparing those 2 things.

Just see it like this: Tanks need to be reliable
- that's why you stack stamina (because "maybe" avoiding the hit that kills you won't save your ass)
- that's why hit can sometimes be better than STR even if it adds less tps (missed taunt => dead raider, missed ShoR = bad TPS at the start of a fight)
- that's why movement speed is more important than crit (because being out of range to pick up a mob might kill your raid)

You can easily make those calculations for a DD, because it doesn't really matter, if you hit/miss/crit as long as the total damage done is better.
- that's why 2% more damage is usually better than 1% chance to hit

3) TPS is never wasted, you may want to qualify that better because saying TPS talents have no value means I should drop one-handed weapon spec and touched by the light in favor of divinity.

That's like comparing an item with 10 Stam and an item with 100 Str. For max survival the first one would be better, but nevertheless you might still use the 2nd item, because it's just thaaaaaaaaaat much better.
Comparing Movement speed to Crit would be something like : +5% chance to "save the day" vs 2% more crit. "save the day" just can't be put in math

[Offhand]

"save the day" just can't be put in math

Except I can put it into math. I did, and proved that PoJ is worth the two point investment in the majority of ICC fights. It's not necessary (and rather childish) to include "saves the day" as a valid reason with no actual proof. Ideally, no fight is balanced with runspeed in mind, every fight should be doable with the base 100% speed (as not every tank spec has talented runspeed and/or a charge. Needing that extra 15% to be somewhere at a certain time implies that you screwed up somewhere else along the way.

All tank theory has basis in math. No, it isn't as clear cut as dps or healing because there's much more going on then just producing one number you care about on recount while not standing in fire. That's why everything is evaluated on a fight-by-fight basis and I qualify most statements with "is better for 7/9 fights" etc.

Tanks stack stamina for a number of reasons. The "reliable" portion of it comes from the fact that you take a relatively steady stream of damage that's more predictable. The actual reason it's preferred is because high health tanks perform better then high avoidance tanks in worst case scenarios. Avoidance doesn't work against multiple attacks (most magic attacks, most important boss abilities, impale). Even that is subject to fight mechanics, such as avoidance stacking on Saurfang.

[balloonknot]

Ditch the Glyph of ShoR. Either get Glyph of Judgement, Glyph of RD or Glyph of AS. Best bet is RD unless you are spell hit capped (LOL) or aren't worried about taunts missing.

It's better to have the AP debuff than to not have it.

I believe in going for worse case scenario. And worse case is you either don't have a warrior/druid/hunter with screaming birdie, or all that you brought stood in the fire and died.

I'd include Glyph of Salvation on this list, its another great 20% damage reduction cooldown. Taunts missing really isn't an issue, you have 2 taunts + Bopping the current tank (if your 2nd on threat). The BoP is guaranteed, and missing 2 taunts in a row is very rare. With all the hit on ICC gear getting at or near the melee hit cap without raid buffs should be trivial so getting near the spell hit cap is not terribly difficult.

On the other topics, i really can't see any reason for taking more than 1 in Conviction. The threat is useless 99.99% of the time. Only in rare fights with tank stuns do i not have enough of threat lead to use Slav as an extra damage cooldown and in those cases the 80 TPS that conviction is worth per point
doesn't compare to getting your rogues/hunters to MD/TotT properly. I'd much rather have vindication even if its only currently useful for BPC (assuming your 100% confident in your raids ability to maintain 100% up time, i try to avoid such assumptions)

PoJ is pretty much mandatory in my mind if you not taking it you better have the speed enchant to boots. There are tons of fights where movement speed of the tank is important (marrowgar, add management on deathwhisper, putricide, rotface when add tanking, etc etc etc)

Don't know why some of you are arguing about the threat value of various talents. The math has been done (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...rb_v=viewtopic) If you can poke a hole in his logic or math, by all means do so as thats how community knowledge grows, if you can't, your argument has no real substance.

[Deleted]

So, for example, a fight with 20% time spent running (80.8% "Patchwerk" or non-movement tps) would only be 20*.85 = 17% time spent running for a PoJ tank

sorry to nitpick but since it seems you invested alot of time in this calculation i thought i should point out an error in it. PoJ is a 15% speed increase not a 15% decrease in time spent traveling so to get the real value for how much time running PoJ saves you you would need to tak base speed:1 and divide it with the PoJ speed:1,15 so 1/1,15 roughly equals 0.87 so a 13% decrease in time spent running.

[Ronark]

sorry to nitpick but since it seems you invested alot of time in this calculation i thought i should point out an error in it. PoJ is a 15% speed increase not a 15% decrease in time spent traveling so to get the real value for how much time running PoJ saves you you would need to tak base speed:1 and divide it with the PoJ speed:1,15 so 1/1,15 roughly equals 0.87 so a 13% decrease in time spent running.

This is correct: We had a similar discussion in another thread on how some spells (i.e. Divine Plea and AW) and movement speed (such as PoJ or Crusader aura) are multiplicative. So your actual run speed is 1*(1.15), or 115%. When mounted on a normal land mount, your run speed then becomes 60*(1.15), or 69% (and not 60+15 for 75%).

[Offhand]

The recalculated number is 7.15% movement in a fight. That still qualifies it for the overwhelming majority of ICC fights.

The post with the math has been corrected and updated to include all ICC content (which wasn't out at the original time of posting).